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Musical Instruments in Christ's church

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Darron Steele

New Member
BTM said:
Still waiting for someone to give the definition of "a capella".
It is Latin for "of the church."

Back when Latin became a normative language of the church, which was AFTER the New Testament era, it was the custom for church congregations to not use musical instruments.

So what? If you want to base modern church practice on post-New Testament church practice, you would find similar arguments in favor of Orthodoxy and Catholicism.

I thought this thread was about the teachings of Scripture. If we follow Scripture -- JUST Scripture -- we would have to accept that God approves of musical instruments in worship.
 

steaver

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
When God gives specific instructions, all other additions, subtractions, and substitutes are forbidden.

Do you ever bow your head and close your eyes to pray?
 

steaver

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
The difference between a pitch pipe and a piano is that the pitch pipe knows enough to be quiet during the singing.:thumbsup:

Then you would allow the piano to be played in the church service as long as it was not during the singing?
 

Amy.G

New Member
BTM said:
Amy G.

(Third time I'm doing this - keep hitting the wrong buttons!)

As has been pointed out, an explicit condemnation of instrumental music in worship does not exist.
Here's an example:
Exactly. Therefore you cannot claim it is forbidden.
As has been pointed out, songbooks are not commanded either. Do you use songbooks? By your logic, it is wrong to use songbooks. You should memorize psalms and sing them.

Heb 7:14 - For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.

This is in the middle of the writer's presenting Christ as being a priest after the order of Melchisedec, and of the change of law being necessary due to the change in priesthood.

Notice that the writer does not refer back to a scripture that explicitly forbade men from Judah from being priests under the old Law. He simply points out that Moses "spake nothing" about Judah serving as priests.
Talk about out of context. Moses didn't speak of Judah as serving as priests because God commanded the Levites to be priests. These verses are speaking about our new priest, Jesus Christ, who came out of Judah, which was not appointed to the priesthood. It has zero to do with instruments and worship.


When God gives specific instructions, all other additions, subtractions, and substitutes are forbidden.
We have added many, many "traditions" to our worship since Paul wrote his letters about singing in worship. If we are to comply to the letter of the law, so to speak, then we must give up our church buildings, sunday school, hymnals, pews, pulpits, altar calls.....ect.....because they were not listed as part of NT worship.


Another example might be God's instruction to Noah to build an ark of gopher wood. Why could he not have built the ark of steel, like modern ships? Or why not build a train out of gopher wood? Or even build an ark out of some other kind of wood?
He was commanded to use gopher wood. Using anything else would be disobedience.
God did not command the prohibition of instruments in worship.
If God had forbidden it, He would have said "thou shalt NOT".


To bring this back to topic, God has specifically commanded concerning the kind of music He wants in NT worship. That kind of music is vocal music, or singing (Eph 5:19; Col 3:16), the fruit of our lips (Heb 13:15).
Pray tell, what is the difference between using vocal cords to make music and using a violin to make music?? Your voice is nothing more than a God given "instrument".


Again, it's got nothing to do with personal preference or anything like that. Instrumental music is simply not authorized because God has not commanded it.
It was authorized in the OT. It was authorized in heaven and it has never been "un" authorized for the church.
 

BTM

New Member
Darron Steele said:
I thought this thread was about the teachings of Scripture. If we follow Scripture -- JUST Scripture -- we would have to accept that God approves of musical instruments in worship.

If there were a NT command to use musical instruments in worship, then we would need to accept its' use, and use it ourselves. The problem for the pro-instrument crowd is the lack of a command to use instruments in worship.

If there were one, it would be shouted from the housetops! And again, if there were one, I'd promote the use of the instrument. However, to do so now is to promote/excuse/overlook an addition to the commands of the Lord.

But no one is going to give the green light to that sort of thing. Instead, arguments about why it doesn't matter, or that God approved of it in the OT, or that the 24 elders are using a harp in heaven are offered to justify it.

We do not live in heaven, or under the Old Testament, and it does matter. If it did not, what would be the purpose of Col 3:17? Here it is in context.

Col 3:16 - 19

16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.
17 And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.
18 Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands, as it is fit in the Lord.
19 Husbands, love your wives, and be not bitter against them.


The things we do in worship must be by Christs' authority. Anything else is just us pleasing ourselves.
 

steaver

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
If there were a NT command to use musical instruments in worship, then we would need to accept its' use, and use it ourselves. The problem for the pro-instrument crowd is the lack of a command to use instruments in worship.

If there were one, it would be shouted from the housetops! And again, if there were one, I'd promote the use of the instrument. However, to do so now is to promote/excuse/overlook an addition to the commands of the Lord.

Do you ever bow your head and close your eyes to pray?

Still waiting.......
 

steaver

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
The difference between a pitch pipe and a piano is that the pitch pipe knows enough to be quiet during the singing.:thumbsup:


Then you would allow the piano to be played in the church service as long as it was not during the singing?

still waiting.......
 

steaver

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
But no one is going to give the green light to that sort of thing. Instead, arguments about why it doesn't matter, or that God approved of it in the OT, or that the 24 elders are using a harp in heaven are offered to justify it.

Rom 15:4For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning,


We do not live in heaven,

Luk 11:2And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth.
 

steaver

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
I'm still waiting to see where instruments were commanded in the OT, under the Law. Did I miss it??

We're still waiting for several answers. I'm afraid he cannot give answer without destroying his view. Silence speaks volumes to those watching the debate to learn if the doctrine is good or of the devil.

:jesus:
 

Salty

20,000 Posts Club
Administrator
Has anybody else ran into this brick wall?:tonofbricks:

I'm gonna move on. Has been fun though while it has lasted.

Hmm, maybe we could continue this discussion in the Baptist only section:thumbs:

Salty

ps Ring the bells of heaven......:laugh:
 

Don

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
BTM said:
To bring this back to topic, God has specifically commanded concerning the kind of music He wants in NT worship. That kind of music is vocal music, or singing (Eph 5:19; Col 3:16), the fruit of our lips (Heb 13:15).

I have a question.

In Matt 26:30/Mark 14:26, Eph 5:19 and Col 3:16, what hymns were they singing? What spiritual songs?
 

steaver

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
I have a question.

In Matt 26:30/Mark 14:26, Eph 5:19 and Col 3:16, what hymns were they singing? What spiritual songs?

Get in line :sleep:

The entire list is waiting...........
 

steaver

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
I have a question.

In Matt 26:30/Mark 14:26, Eph 5:19 and Col 3:16, what hymns were they singing? What spiritual songs?

This is a good question. Let's add it to the list of unanswered....

> What hymns were they singing?

>Which hymns does the scripture instruct Christians to sing?

>Do you bow your head and close your eyes to pray? If so, where is this commanded in scripture?

>Would you allow the piano to be played in the church service as long as it was not during the singing? If no, why do you allow the pitch pipe to be played?

>Where are instruments commanded to be used in the OT law?

:jesus:
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
We are told that every reformation of religion brought with it a reconstruction of the temple chorus and orchestra, and a resumption of their duties. Thus when Hezekiah purged the state and church of the heathenism patronized by Ahaz, "he set the Levites in the house of Yahweh with cymbals, with psalteries, and with harps" (2Ch 29:25). The same thing took place under Josiah (2Ch 34:1-36:5). After the restoration--at the dedication of the Temple (Ezr 3:10) and of the walls of Jerusalem (Ne 12:17)--music played a great part. In Nehemiah's time the descendants of the ancient choral guilds drew together, and their maintenance was secured to them out of the public funds in return for their services.

The musical instruments employed by the Hebrews included representatives of the three groups: string, wind, and percussion. The strings comprised the kinnor, or nebhel or nebhel; the winds: the shophar, or qeren, chatsotserah, chalil, and `ughabh; percussion: toph, metsiltayim, tsltselim, mena`an`im, shalishim. Besides these, we have in Daniel: mashroqitha', cabbekha', pecanterin, cumponyah. Further, there are Chaldean forms of qeren and kithara.

The chief of these instruments were the kinnor and nebhel (the King James Version, the Revised Version (British and American) "the harp" and "the psaltery" or "viol"). They were used to accompany vocal music. In Ps 5:10, Saul meets a band of prophets singing inspired strains to the music of the nebhel, "drum," "flute," and kinnor. In the description of the removal of the ark, we are told that songs were sung with kinnoroth, nebhalim, etc. (Ps 53:3). Again, in various passages (1Ch 15:16; 2Ch 7:6, etc.) we meet with the expression keleshir, i.e. instruments of, or suitable for accompanying, song. It is evident that only the flute and strings could render melodies. The music performed on these instruments seems to have been mainly of a joyful nature. It entered into all public and domestic festivities. In Ps 81:2, the kinnor is called "pleasant," and Isa 24:8 speaks of the "joy" of the kinnor.

Very striking is the invocation Ps 108:2: the poet in a moment of exhilarations calls upon the two kele shir to echo and share his enthusiasm for Yahweh. Only once (Isa 16:11) is the kinnor associated with mourning, and Cheyne infers from this passage "the kinnor was used at mourning ceremonies." But the inference is doubtful; the prophet is merely drawing a comparison between the trembling of the strings of the lyre and the agitation in his own bosom. Again, the Babylonian captives hang their kinnoroth on the willows in their dejection (Ps 139:17), and the prophets (Isa 24:8; Eze 26:13) threaten that as a punishment for sin the sound of the kinnor will cease.
The above is some information about music taken from the International Standard Bible Encyclopedia (ISBE). I could not post it all for there is too much of it. I find it interesting how Hezekiah purged the temple of heathen music, and then set up in the house of Jehovah the Levites with cymbals, pslateries and harps. Obviously there was a difference between the two types of music. One was glorifying to God and one was not. That is not the debate here. The point is that musical instruments were used and were used to the glory of God. And there is plenty of OT Scrpture to back it up. We can even find commands in Scripture for the Israelites to use music. They were known among the nations (in fact were famous) for the music. But when the Temple was destroyed, and they were dispersed it was another story. They were asked by heathen nations to sing with their instruments, for they were well known for it. But they wouldn't. "They hung up their harps in shame." The shame of being a captive to a foreign nation; the shame of having their Temple destroyed by an enemy nation; the shame of not having a place to worship.

Psalms 137:1-4 By the rivers of Babylon, there we sat down, yea, we wept, when we remembered Zion. We hanged our harps upon the willows in the midst thereof. For there they that carried us away captive required of us a song; and they that wasted us required of us mirth, saying, Sing us one of the songs of Zion. How shall we sing the LORD'S song in a strange land?
 

rbell

Active Member
BTM said:
However, to do so now is to promote/excuse/overlook an addition to the commands of the Lord.

hmmm...addition to the Lord's commands...pot, meet kettle.

BTM said:
Instead, arguments about why it doesn't matter, or that God approved of it in the OT, or that the 24 elders are using a harp in heaven are offered to justify it.
But no one is going to give the green light to that sort of thing.
We do not live in heaven, or under the Old Testament, and it does matter.

Hey, we can't help it if your argument doesn't hold up to Scriptural scrutiny. Your bad theology is your problem, not ours. You could always change it...not your preference for instrumental-less music...but your assertion that anything but your preference=sin.

BTM said:
The things we do in worship must be by Christs' authority. Anything else is just us pleasing ourselves.

Like a pitch pipe, song leaders, song books, four-part singing, bowing head, closing eyes, Welch's grape juice at communion...that sort of thing?
 

Darron Steele

New Member
steaver said:
This is a good question. Let's add it to the list of unanswered....

> What hymns were they singing?

>Which hymns does the scripture instruct Christians to sing?

>Do you bow your head and close your eyes to pray? If so, where is this commanded in scripture?

>Would you allow the piano to be played in the church service as long as it was not during the singing? If no, why do you allow the pitch pipe to be played?

>Where are instruments commanded to be used in the OT law?

:jesus:
I am still waiting for `Where in Scripture is there any genuine backing for a ban on something God repeatedly indicates approval of throughout Scripture?'

I suspect the list will grow. If the silence ban was consistently followed, there would be a lot of things BTM's portion of the Churches of Christ would not do anymore. However, musical instruments are not something Scripture is silent about: God's approval of them in worship is expressed clearly in both Testaments.
 
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Darron Steele

New Member
Jim1999 said:
It all boils down to personal preference, doesn't it?

Cheers,

Jim
Agreed. I do not think anyone is suggesting that that vocal-only Churches of Christ should adopt musical instruments. If they prefer not to have them, they should feel free to not have them.

The problem is that a couple of posters from the militant vocal-only Churches of Christ are saying that no one should have them. Scripture does not back that assertion.
 
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