Musical Sounds: Moral or Amoral?

As you state, music is a form of human behavior; but in and of itself, music is not a behavior. It is a reflection of behavior.

Behavior describes an organic or inorganic object. We can say that someone behaved poorly, or that a physics particle exhibited certain behaviors; and we can certainly say that the way music ebbs and flows exhibits certain behaviors.

But we cannot say someone behaved musically, or that physics particles exhibited strange music; or that music exhibited music.

We can, however, say that music is a reflection of someone's behavior, or causes people to behave in certain ways.

I invite you to look up the definition of behavior. I also invite you to google "music is a behavior" and look through the pages of results. You don't need to go to each website, unless you just wish to.

I would agree with you that music can represent human behavior, and can influence human behavior. Would you be willing to agree to that compromise?

 

And here's an off-the-wall question: Why are you, Luke, and I posting at what the server is reporting as 2:50am?!?

For me, it's because I'm in Hawaii, and thus apparently 5 hours behind the time zone the server is in. What's up with you late-nighters?

 

LOL

Okay, I gotta go check on some work stuff. Don't know if I'll be back on here tonight or not.

 

These kinds of discussions are usually lopsided, and this is no exception. I will not respond to every assertion in an avalanche of posts. I'll simply respond to the key ones.

 

The two don't compare. A color is a wavelength of light radiaton. It's an element. The intelligent arrangement of colors is communication.

Music is not a single sound. It is the intelligent arrangement of certain sounds with the specific aim of eliciting a specific emotional response. It is non-verbal communication.

 

That's like saying that speech is not behavior. To assert such a thing would be to belie a sound understanding of the concept of speech.

 

There are certain things that God has used nature to teach us. For instance, the Bible tells us that God hates a proud look, but you will pore over the pages of Scripture in vain to find a physical description thereof. But those who have studied non-verbal communication will tell you that the characteristics of a proud expression are universal and cross cultural. Same with the matter of humility.

In the matter of the nature of music, it is something that is self-evident to those who have taken the time to take a casual glance at it. We can go to the Scriptures once you see that your thought of music is nothing like music really is.

You haven't denied that the Scriptures speak directly to the manner of our communication, you just aren't allowing anyone to say that music is communication.

 

Then please, by all means, point me to any study anywhere that asserts music as a behavior. During this short discourse between us, I've been looking; and I can find no scholarly study that supports what you're asserting.

 

Aaron:

So then you would agree that it is not the music itself that is sinful, but the intent of the person making the arrangement that can be sinful?

 

And even things without life giving sound, whether pipe or harp, except they give a distinction in the sounds, how shall it be known what is piped or harped? For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle? (1 Cor 14: 7,8)

Would you be willing to at least agree that the above passage teaches that music communicates certain (as in definite, not indefinite) ideas and meanings?

Another passage to look at:

Go to now, [ye] rich men, weep and howl for your miseries that shall come upon [you]. (James 5:1)

Does a "howl" have a certain sound? Or is one sound just as likely to be a howl as another sound? What message or emotion does "howl" convey? Or does it convey any meaning at all?

If we can agree that "howl" has a certain sound, can we agree that a musical instrument can make a sound akin to a "howl"? And if we can agree that on that, can't we agree that the sound of that instrument conveys the same meaning as the verbal "howl?

Now tell me, is the sound of a "howl" appropriate in the worship of God?

 

Don't know about Luke, but I'd be willing to agree that music communicates certain learned ideas and meanings.

Take the scripture passage you identified; the scriptural example used is a trumpet blaring the call to battle. How do the people know that that particular sound indicates a call to battle? It's not because it elicited a certain behavior; it's because they were taught that way.

It could convey anger, or great sadness, or great joy, or great pain.

So far, this is the part of communication that is missing from identifying music as communication: the receiver. It's been referenced by talking about how music affects someone; but we tend to forget that to actually call music communication, we have to talk about the sender, the receiver, and feedback.

Anectdote: I heard one of my kids howl out one day. I immediately rushed in to see what the problem was. It turned out, they were howling in laughter; I had simply misinterpreted the sound I'd heard.

If the howl is one of great joy, then by all means, let's make a joyful noise unto the Lord.

In fact, it pretty much identifies the choir in at least one church I've attended....

 

Aren't there certain sounds that are universalyrecognized for certain definite meanings? Like, for example, a growl. My cat growls, and my dog growls, and they know what it means, and I know what it means. Can a growl be construed to be an expression of joy?

Is that the "howl" that God has in mind in James 5:1?

You've got a point there - I've hear that kind of howl myself. I believe you have won this debate!

 

Unsure about a growl being construed as joy; but my dog tends to growl when we're playing. She's not growling out of anger, or defense; it's playfulness. (edited to add: when others hear her growl, they construe it as very scary; but then they see that my hand is actually in her mouth, but she's not biting down while she's growling. Now cats, on the other hand...I'm not particularly fond of cats anyway.)

In that particular passage, the word "howl" is preceeded by the word "weep"; in this particular example, scripture explains scripture. I could not explain away this particular howl as anything other than having to do with sadness, because of the context in which it's used.

I'll only consider it a win on the "choir" aspect, okay? :thumbs: