proper decorum of human interaction???????????
appeal is carnal or spiritual????
Where do you get this stuff?
What does that mean?
AND MOST OF ALL- WHAT DO YOU BASE IT ON???????
-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Musical Sounds: Moral or Amoral?
- Thread starter Luke2427
- Start date
- Status
proper decorum of human interaction???????????
appeal is carnal or spiritual????
Where do you get this stuff?
What does that mean?
AND MOST OF ALL- WHAT DO YOU BASE IT ON???????
Here's an idea. Toss a verse out there- say your best one that you use to declare that any type of music is carnal or sinful.
As you state, music is a form of human behavior; but in and of itself, music is not a behavior. It is a reflection of behavior.
Behavior describes an organic or inorganic object. We can say that someone behaved poorly, or that a physics particle exhibited certain behaviors; and we can certainly say that the way music ebbs and flows exhibits certain behaviors.
But we cannot say someone behaved musically, or that physics particles exhibited strange music; or that music exhibited music.
We can, however, say that music is a reflection of someone's behavior, or causes people to behave in certain ways.
I invite you to look up the definition of behavior. I also invite you to google "music is a behavior" and look through the pages of results. You don't need to go to each website, unless you just wish to.
I would agree with you that music can represent human behavior, and can influence human behavior. Would you be willing to agree to that compromise?
The other problem, and the main problem by far is the haphazard attitude about decalring things to be sinful or carnal without any Bible whatsoever.
Its like me saying- Color is communication. It is a form of behavior. It is thought. Red is bad. Blue is good.
Why? Because I say so.
Do I have Bible for these ideas? BIBLE?!! WHO NEEDS BIBLE!? I speak it therefore it is.
The two don't compare. A color is a wavelength of light radiaton. It's an element. The intelligent arrangement of colors is communication.
Music is not a single sound. It is the intelligent arrangement of certain sounds with the specific aim of eliciting a specific emotional response. It is non-verbal communication.
Last edited by a moderator:
There are certain things that God has used nature to teach us. For instance, the Bible tells us that God hates a proud look, but you will pore over the pages of Scripture in vain to find a physical description thereof. But those who have studied non-verbal communication will tell you that the characteristics of a proud expression are universal and cross cultural. Same with the matter of humility.
In the matter of the nature of music, it is something that is self-evident to those who have taken the time to take a casual glance at it. We can go to the Scriptures once you see that your thought of music is nothing like music really is.
You haven't denied that the Scriptures speak directly to the manner of our communication, you just aren't allowing anyone to say that music is communication.
Then please, by all means, point me to any study anywhere that asserts music as a behavior. During this short discourse between us, I've been looking; and I can find no scholarly study that supports what you're asserting.
GBC Pastor
New Member
Aaron:
So then you would agree that it is not the music itself that is sinful, but the intent of the person making the arrangement that can be sinful?
So then you would agree that it is not the music itself that is sinful, but the intent of the person making the arrangement that can be sinful?
So then there is an arrangement of colors that you think are immoral too?
What about an arrangement of textures?
What about an arrangement of smells?
What about an arrangement of tastes?
Tastes for example do create euphoria and they do affect the emotions. Are you against chocolate too?
I think I'll preach against chocolate, sandpaper, cinnamon odors, and Christian Rock. Why? Because those things COMMUNICATE. And the Bible has a heck of a lot to say about communication. What? Wait a minute. The Bible doesn't say anything about musical sounds being moral or and arrangement of textures being forbidden or certain tastes needing to be avoided because of the way they make you feel??
Oh, well!! Who needs Bible? I'll preach it anyway.
Bible, Aaron. Where's your Bible for this position that music without lyrics can be immoral?
Where's your Bible?
Do you have any?
Do you believe you need any?
Or can you just preach against things willy nilly?
And even things without life giving sound, whether pipe or harp, except they give a distinction in the sounds, how shall it be known what is piped or harped? For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle? (1 Cor 14: 7,8)
Would you be willing to at least agree that the above passage teaches that music communicates certain (as in definite, not indefinite) ideas and meanings?
Another passage to look at:
Go to now, [ye] rich men, weep and howl for your miseries that shall come upon [you]. (James 5:1)
Does a "howl" have a certain sound? Or is one sound just as likely to be a howl as another sound? What message or emotion does "howl" convey? Or does it convey any meaning at all?
If we can agree that "howl" has a certain sound, can we agree that a musical instrument can make a sound akin to a "howl"? And if we can agree that on that, can't we agree that the sound of that instrument conveys the same meaning as the verbal "howl?
Now tell me, is the sound of a "howl" appropriate in the worship of God?
Last edited by a moderator:
Don't know about Luke, but I'd be willing to agree that music communicates certain learned ideas and meanings.
Take the scripture passage you identified; the scriptural example used is a trumpet blaring the call to battle. How do the people know that that particular sound indicates a call to battle? It's not because it elicited a certain behavior; it's because they were taught that way.
It could convey anger, or great sadness, or great joy, or great pain.
So far, this is the part of communication that is missing from identifying music as communication: the receiver. It's been referenced by talking about how music affects someone; but we tend to forget that to actually call music communication, we have to talk about the sender, the receiver, and feedback.
Anectdote: I heard one of my kids howl out one day. I immediately rushed in to see what the problem was. It turned out, they were howling in laughter; I had simply misinterpreted the sound I'd heard.
If the howl is one of great joy, then by all means, let's make a joyful noise unto the Lord.
In fact, it pretty much identifies the choir in at least one church I've attended....
Aren't there certain sounds that are universalyrecognized for certain definite meanings? Like, for example, a growl. My cat growls, and my dog growls, and they know what it means, and I know what it means. Can a growl be construed to be an expression of joy?
Is that the "howl" that God has in mind in James 5:1?
You've got a point there - I've hear that kind of howl myself. I believe you have won this debate!In fact, it pretty much identifies the choir in at least one church I've attended....
Unsure about a growl being construed as joy; but my dog tends to growl when we're playing. She's not growling out of anger, or defense; it's playfulness. (edited to add: when others hear her growl, they construe it as very scary; but then they see that my hand is actually in her mouth, but she's not biting down while she's growling. Now cats, on the other hand...I'm not particularly fond of cats anyway.)
In that particular passage, the word "howl" is preceeded by the word "weep"; in this particular example, scripture explains scripture. I could not explain away this particular howl as anything other than having to do with sadness, because of the context in which it's used.
I'll only consider it a win on the "choir" aspect, okay? :thumbs:You've got a point there - I've hear that kind of howl myself. I believe you have won this debate!
I do not disagree with any of your premises except the one implied by the last question.
Is the "howl" sound appropriate in the worship of God. Absolutely!- under certain circumstances. Your verse makes this clear.
Furthermore it is the idea of Isaiah crying "Woe is me!!!! I am a man undone with unclean lips...!!!!!" This was the essence of worship. He is so worthy that I howl in pain and shame before him that I am so unworthy to be in his presence.
During the great awakening Jonathan Edwards reports in his book that I have read that is here in my library called "The Surprising Work of God" that many did just that. They howled out loud being convinced so of the Sovereign power of God.
Here is the point, Aaron. Music does communicate. Taste does. Smell does. Anything that touches any of the senses do. ALL OF IT DOES. But that does not equate to ANY OF IT having moral value.
It is not what goes into a man that defiles him- it is what comes out of a man that defiles him.
Morality is within the heart of men- and NO WHERE ELSE!
To preach otherwise is to twist the Scripture and preach an extra biblical doctrine.
The verse you quote about the piping only says that the piper must play a sound that everyone recognizes from their training. It is like the trumpet call to charge, or to awake or to head to the mess hall for supper. Soldiers hear a tune in training and are told what to do when that certain tune is played. If the trumpeter plays an unfamiliar tune, the soldiers will not know what to do. The verse says NOTHING about music having moral value. To force that upon that verse is eisegesis plain and simple. Don't go down that road, Aaron, that you abuse Scripture to prop up your traditions or preferences.
NO REPUTABLE BIBLE SCHOLAR WOULD AGREE THAT THAT VERSE CAN BE USED TO PREACH AGAINST CERTAIN GENRES OF MUSIC- NOT ONE. For Heaven's sake handle the Scripture with more reverence and godly fear than that! I implore you! I would "howl" it to you if it would awaken you to the danger of such haphazard use of the Word of God. And that "howling" would be immensely appropriate.
- Status