Must salvation include correct doctrine?

[Craigbythesea]

If you have access to that commentary on John look up what it says on John 3:3-5.

If I do! What kind of a scholar would I be if I didn’t have a copy of Dr. Raymond Brown’s commentary on John handy!

Catholics believe that being born again is to be baptized. That in itself is heresy.

It would be a heresy if they believed that, but of course they do not. But since you are obviously not a scholar , and in all likelihood do not have a copy of Dr. Raymond Brown’s commentary on John handy, please find below a two paragraphs from that work.

One more problem must be discussed. On the level of baptismal interpretation what relationship does John iii 5 envisage between water and Spirit? Is the begetting of Spirit accomplished through the begetting of water? Or are the two the same action (the Greek has but one preposition)? Or are there two separate and equal begettings? In short, there are several possibilities; identification, subordination, co-ordination. For a complete history of the interpretation see De la Potterie, pp. 418-25. An added complication has entered the discussion from the use of this text in Protestant-Catholic disputes about the necessity for salvation of Baptism by water. For example, Calvin maintained that real water was not necessarily involved, but that "water" indicates the purifying action of the Spirit. This view, attacked by the Anglican Westcott in his commentary (p. 49), was condemned by Session VII of the Council of Trent (DB, § 858).

Fortunately for our purposes here, such theological disputes about the universal necessity of Baptism by water, and the corresponding existence of limbo for unbaptized infants, go beyond the direct scope of the text, which is what interests the exegete. Accepting "water" at its face value, we do not think there is enough evidence in the Gospel itself to determine the relation between begetting of water and begetting of Spirit on the level of sacramental interpretation. Begetting of Spirit, while it includes accepting Jesus by faith, is primarily the communication of the Holy Spirit. If we take iii 5 as a reference to Baptism and faith, then begetting of water and Spirit are two co-ordinate exigencies for entering the kingdom of God. If we take vs. 5 as a reference to Baptism and the giving of the Spirit (note that John mentions Spirit after water), then John may be thinking of the communication of the Spirit through Baptism.

 

[Craigbythesea]

The Catholics stand on the Bible is only superficial. Today they "allow" the people to read the Bible, but the interpretation belongs to the priest or the "magesterium" to be specific. The common lay person is not permitted to interpret the Bible on his own. Soul liberty is one of the Baptist Distinctives that Catholics bitterly oppose. They must believe only what the priest or bishop tells them to believe.

When I was young, my family didn't own a Bible. Bibles, and Bible reading and/or study was highly discouraged. It was the catechism that was taught, and still is. But then it was even more emphasized. The mass was almost entirely in Latin. I still have much of it memorized to this day.

If you go back further you still see the hatred of the Catholics toward the Word of God in history. William Tyndale made his translation of the Bible into English, which became the basis of KJV. It was a monumental work. Tyndale was eventually captured and imprisoned by the Catholics. Soon after that he was burned at the stake declared a heretick. But Tyndale had accomplished his goal in translating the Bible, and he had it printed. The Catholics intercepted as many copies of the Bible as they could and tried to burn them all. The last thing that they wanted was for the common person to have the Bible in their hands. They believed (as they still do to this day), that only the priest--the clergy--is entitled to interpret the Bible. Their belief is the same today; their tactics are different. (They don't burn people at the stake any more).
DHK

Dear Sir,

You are a bit off here . I suggest that you read and study the Sixteen Documents of Vatican II. However, the Catholic Church does have many very serious problems, and I seriously doubt that there are very many well educated Catholics that do not know that. Nonetheless, these problems are not so severe as to exclude the Roman Catholic Church from the body of Christ.
CBTS

 

[Craigbythesea]

DHK,

For your information:

Documents of the Council of Trent
Session VII

Celebrated on the third day of March 1547, under Pope Paul III

Canons On Baptism

Canon 1: If anyone says that the baptism of John had the same effect as the baptism of Christ,[8] let him be anathema.

Canon 2: If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism[9] and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ:

Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost,[10] let him be anathema.

Canon 3: If anyone says that in the Roman Church, which is the mother and mistress of all churches, there is not the true doctrine concerning the sacrament of baptism,[11] let him be anathema.

Canon 4: If anyone says that the baptism which is given by heretics in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, with the intention of doing what the Church does, is not true baptism,[12] let him be anathema.

Canon 5: If anyone says that baptism is optional, that is, not necessary for salvation,[13] let him be anathema.

Canon 6: If anyone says that one baptized cannot, even if he wishes, lose grace, however much he may sin, unless he is unwilling to believe, let him be anathema.

Canon 7: If anyone says that those baptized are by baptism made debtors only to faith alone, but not to the observance of the whole law of Christ, let him be anathema.

Canon 8: If anyone says that those baptized are free from all the precepts of holy Church, whether written or unwritten, so that they are not bound to observe them unless they should wish to submit to them of their own accord, let him be anathema.

Canon 9: If anyone says that the remembrance of the baptism received is to be so impressed on men that they may understand that all the vows made after baptism are void in virtue of the promise already made in that baptism, as if by those vows they detracted from the faith which they professed and from the baptism itself, let him be anathema.

Canon 10: If anyone says that by the sole remembrance and the faith of the baptism received, all sins committed after baptism are either remitted or made venial, let him be anathema.

Canon 11: If anyone says that baptism, truly and rightly administered, must be repeated in the one converted to repentance after having denied the faith of Christ among the infidels, let him be anathema.

Canon 12: If anyone says that no one is to be baptized except at that age at which Christ was baptized, or when on the point of death, let him be anathema.

Canon 13: If anyone says that children, because they have not the act of believing, are not after having received baptism to be numbered among the faithful, and that for this reason are to be rebaptized when they have reached the years of discretion;[14] or that it is better that the baptism of such be omitted than that, while not believing by their own act, they should be baptized in the faith of the Church alone, let him be anathema.

Canon 14: If anyone says that those who have been thus baptized when children are, when they have grown up, to be questioned whether they will ratify what their sponsors promised in their name when they were baptized, and in case they answer in the negative, are to be left to their own will; neither are they to be compelled in the meantime to a Christian life by any penalty other than exclusion from the reception of the Eucharist and the other sacraments, until they repent, let him be anathema.

 

[Ben W]

I had a very similar conversation to this topic with two people that had been born again in the Worldwide Church of God in the 1970's. The group expounded law based doctrines, and denied the Trinity amongst other things that are Heretical. Yet both of them said in spite of that, they were Born Again in the WCOG and were certainley saved there.

That is the testimony of many people that have come out of these types of groups, God knew them and He led them out of it.

People that accept Jesus as their Lord and Saviour in a SDA church most certainly are saved, the Holy Spirit leads them to that Salvation. God is more aware than we are of where a persons heart is, resultingly that could be why Christians are told not to judge others. Yet it always seems that people can find a "get out clause" to get rid of that particular scripture and give reasons as to why they are allowed to judge people!

 

[AVL1984]

Originally posted by Helen:

Knowledge and intellect are not part of salvation.

I have to say I don't agree here. I believe there has to be a knowledge of sin/being a sinner for salvation to occur. This knowledge does involve intellect, as it calls on us to use our intelligence to realize that we are sinners. Without either knowledge or intellect, there can be no salvation, though they are not the primary components.

AVL1984

 

[pinoybaptist]

(Exo 6:3) And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them.[/b]

Spoken by Jehovah God of the OT, Immanuel of the New Testament, same God, about His chosen earthly people. National Israel. Were they Israelites because they knew the name Jehovah ? Or were they Israelites because they were born into the chosen nation.

A does not hold to the Doctrines of Grace, in fact froths at the mouth at the mere suggestion of such, and looks at those who hold on to those doctrines as enemies worthy of the stake if at all possible in these modern times, does that negate the fact that A is a child of God not by his choice or design or belief, but because his name was written in the Lamb's book of life before the foundation of the world ?

B believes that the way to heaven and to spiritual fulfillment is by following the teachings of Confucius, or Buddha, or Zen, does that negate Jesus' statement: I am the door.

Right theology cannot send you to heaven, wrong theology will not send you to hell. Right theology puts one on the narrow way, on the path of timely salvation and the joy of knowing Christ on this earth.

Wrong theology, on the other hand, puts one on the broad way that leads to destruction (not in the eternal sense) by lack of knowledge.

 

[pinoybaptist]

Erratum:

Spoken by Jehovah God of the OT, Immanuel of the New Testament, same God, about His chosen earthly people. National Israel. ....snip

Should read 'about the Patriarchs of His chosen people...'

apologies.

addendum:

in national Israel we have the examples of the results of disobedience or obedience, of wrong theology and right theology.

We really don't have to look far, do we ?

 

[Charles Meadows]

It is indeed unfortunate that Fr Raymond Brown is no longer with us. I've tried to get ahold of everything he's written - good stuff!!

At least we still have Joseph Fitzmyer and J P Meier in his tradition.

 

[Matt Black]

"The Churches the Apostles Left Behind" by Fr Brown is very good as is his taped commentary on Acts

Yours in Christ

Matt

 

[DHK]

From the Documents of Vatican II. Chapter 2

#14 This sacred Synod turns its attention first to the Catholic faithful. Basing itself upon sacred Scripture and tradition, it teaches that the Church, now sojourning on earth as an exile is necessary for salvation. For Christ, made present to using His Body, which is the Church, is the one Mediator and the unique Way of salvation. In explicit terms He himself affirmed the necessity of faith and baptism (cf. Mk. 16:16; Jn. 3:5) and thereby affirmed also the necessity of the Church, for through baptism as through a door men enter the Church. Whoseover, therefore, knowing that the Catholic Church was made necessary by God through Jesus Christ, would refuse to enter her or to remain in her could not be saved.

Not only is the Catholic Church necessary for salvation, but so is baptism.
DHK

 

[Eltrow]

Do not be fooled by the modern catholic theologens. They are not as they appear. Their only purpose since vatican II has been to infiltrate the protestant churches and influence the return to the "holy mother church" Their commentaries have the taste of truth but have just enough poison to kill.

Salvation does not need doctrine, just the Holy Spirit. Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. and if the Father draws -- Joh 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

 

[Craigbythesea]

Not only is the Catholic Church necessary for salvation, but so is baptism.
DHK

When reading materials written by Roman Catholics it helps to understand their terminology. When they use the expression "Catholic Church," they don't always mean the Roman Catholic Church, and they surely didn't mean that in the quote above. As for their teaching that Baptism is a requirement for salvation, that is a subject all in its self, and a very complicated one. The bottom line, however, is that anyone who is a true Catholic is a Christian. Any “Catholic” who is not a Christian, and there are plenty of them, is not really a Catholic. The exact same thing can be said of Baptists. Simply having a Catholic or Baptist heritage does not save anyone. We MUST be born again.

The real question of this thread, however, is whether or not doctrinal error in and of itself excludes one from the possibility of being saved. In my opinion, the Roman Catholic Church has some serious doctrinal problems, but not serious enough problems to justify excluding the true members of it from salvation.

 

[Russ Kelly]

Since this thread is discussing the place of doctrine in salvation, I asked about the following texts. Nobody responded.

Eph 4:13 UNTIL we all attain to the UNITY of the faith, and of the KNOWLEDGE OF THE SON OF GOD, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ.
14 As a result, we are no longer to be children, tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of DOCTRINE, by the trickery of men, by craftiness in deceitful scheming;

Could it be possible that, as long as we are united in WHO Jesus Christ is, "the knowoedge of th Son of God" -- then we should not let other doctrines divide us????

 

[GODzThunder]

Craig, you and I keep doing this "dance" from thread to thread.

Marcia shhhhhhhh if the fundies down the hall hear that you been dancin and such in a Baptist community, they will put tha fire upon ya, bless God!!!

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Russ Kelly:
Since this thread is discussing the place of doctrine in salvation, I asked about the following texts. Nobody responded.

Eph 4:13 UNTIL we all attain to the UNITY of the faith, and of the KNOWLEDGE OF THE SON OF GOD, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ.
14 As a result, we are no longer to be children, tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of DOCTRINE, by the trickery of men, by craftiness in deceitful scheming;

Could it be possible that, as long as we are united in WHO Jesus Christ is, "the knowoedge of th Son of God" -- then we should not let other doctrines divide us????

All believers will never come to a unity of the faith (except in Heaven). It is an impossibility. I believe we must take these verses in a greater context. Paul was writing these verses to church at Ephesus. Timothy was the pastor, although we read in Acts 20:17, that the church had many pastors. He had called them together from Miletus. From this fact alone we may surmise that the church that was at Ephesus was a fairly large church.

The goal of every local church is to be in doctrinal unity. If you don't agree with the doctrine of the church, why would you even be a member? As the Word is taught the members grow together in doctrine or teaching. The purpose of the church (besides carrying out the great Commission) is teaching its own people.

"As a result we are no longer to be children.."
This is exactly what Paul was writing to the church at Corinth about. He rebukes them in 1Cor.3:1-4, that they are still carnal, like children, drinking milk, when they ought to be mature eating meat. They haven't grown up yet. The Corinthian church was the most carnal (or perhaps childish) church in the New Testament).
As we grow in Christ, being continuously taught by the Word in a good local church, we are less likely to be carried away be any doctrine or foolish teaching. We will be grounded in the teaching of the Word of God as we are taught the Word of God by the leaders in our church, and by our own motivation to study the Word of God.

In the local church we WILL be united not only on WHO Jesus is, but on almost all other doctrines as well. These verses apply to the local church, not all churches all over the world. They do not apply to all of Christendom. They are applicable to each and every local church as an entity of its own.

In the Book of Revelation, Christ wrote to 7 churches, each had 7 angels (or messengers as the word means), which I believe were their pastors. Each church was different and independent of the other, each having its own problems. For each one the goal was to be unified in doctrine and to mature together as they grew in grace. Christ rebuked them as was necessary.
DHK

 

[Marcia]

You need to be a whole lot more careful and precise in your statements. We are not just talking about Bible trivia in this thread, we are talking about the doctrine of salvation and who is lost and who is saved. To you, things may all seem to be black and white, but after a number of years of study I have learned that the white very gradually changes to black, with an infinite number of shades in between, and drawing soteriological lines is not as easy as connecting the dots in a dot-to-dot puzzle.

I realize the importance of this issue. But I am taking my cue from the Bible - there are false gods and false Christs. I think it is pretty much a black and white issue as to whether a God or Jesus is the Biblical one or not. It is not that hard to see that the Mormon Jesus or the New Age God is not the Jesus and not the God of the Bible. Other areas of doctrine have shades of gray, but not this one.

 

[Marcia]

Originally posted by GODzThunder:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Craig, you and I keep doing this "dance" from thread to thread.

Marcia shhhhhhhh if the fundies down the hall hear that you been dancin and such in a Baptist community, they will put tha fire upon ya, bless God!!!
</font>[/QUOTE]

Thanks for the chuckle!

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Craigbythesea:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Not only is the Catholic Church necessary for salvation, but so is baptism.
DHK

When reading materials written by Roman Catholics it helps to understand their terminology. When they use the expression "Catholic Church," they don't always mean the Roman Catholic Church, and they surely didn't mean that in the quote above. </font>[/QUOTE]No offence, but you are wrong. Any time they use the word Catholic Church or the word Church, capitalized, they are referring to themselves--the Roman Catholic Church--in their Catechism, in the documents of Vatican II, etc. The goal of the Roman Catholic Church is to bring all religions underneath its umbrella. I, like many others, believe that eventually the pope may very likely be the false prophet spoken of in Revelation 13 (the second beast). At that time there will be one world-wide church. I for one am glad that I will not be there.

DHK

 

[Craigbythesea]

No offence, but you are wrong. Any time they use the word Catholic Church or the word Church, capitalized, they are referring to themselves--the Roman Catholic Church--in their Catechism, in the documents of Vatican II, etc.

No, you have to read more carefully. Roman Catholics do recognize Baptists and other Protestants as Christians:

Vatican II

Decree on Ecumenism

Note: The term "separated brethren" refers to Protestants.

Unitatis Redintegratio

Introduction
Sect. 1
The restoration of unity among all Christians is one of the principal concerns of the Second Vatican Council. Christ the Lord founded one Church and one Church only. However, many Christian communions present themselves to men as the true inheritors of Jesus Christ; all indeed profess to be followers of the Lord but differ in mind and go their different ways, as if Christ Himself were divided.(1) Such division openly contradicts the will of Christ, scandalizes the world, and damages the holy cause of preaching the Gospel to every creature.
Chapter 1 -- Catholic Principles on Ecumenism
Sect. 3
Even in the beginnings of this one and only Church of God there arose certain rifts, which the Apostle strongly condemned. But in subsequent centuries much more serious dissensions made their appearance and quite large communities came to be separated from full communion with the Catholic Church -- for which, often enough, men of both sides were to blame. The children who are born into these Communities and who grow up believing in Christ cannot be accused of the sin involved in the separation, and the Catholic Church embraces upon them as brothers, with respect and affection. For men who believe in Christ and have been truly baptized are in communion with the Catholic Church even though this communion is imperfect. . . . It remains true that all who have been justified by faith in Baptism are members of Christ's body, and have a right to be called Christian, and so are correctly accepted as brothers by the children of the Catholic Church. . . . Our separated brethren, whether considered as individuals or as Communities and Churches, are not blessed with that unity which Jesus Christ wished to bestow on all those who through Him were born again into one body.
Sect. 4
Catholics, in their ecumenical work, must assuredly be concerned for their separated brethren, praying for them, keeping them informed about the Church, making the first approaches toward them. . . . Although the Catholic Church has been endowed with all divinely revealed truth and with all means of grace, yet its members fail to live by them with all the fervor that they should, so that the radiance of the Church's image is less clear in the eyes of our separated brethren and of the world at large, and the growth of God's kingdom is delayed. . . . Catholics must gladly acknowledge and esteem the truly Christian endowments from our common heritage which are to be found among our separated brethren. . . . Nor should we forget that anything wrought by the Grace Of The Holy Spirit in the hearts of our separated brethren can be a help to our own edification.
Chapter 2 -- The Practice of Ecumenism
Sect. 8
In certain special circumstances, such as the prescribed prayers "for unity," and during ecumenical gatherings, it is allowable, indeed desirable that Catholics should join in prayer with their separated brethren. . . . Yet worship in common . . . is not to be considered as a means to be used indiscriminately for the restoration of Christian unity.
Sect. 9
We must get to know the outlook of our separated brethren.
Chapter 3 -- Churches and Ecclesial Communities Separated From the Roman Apostolic See -- Separated Churches and Ecclesial Communities in the West
Sect. 13
Other divisions arose more than four centuries later in the West, stemming from the events which are usually referred to as "The Reformation." As a result, many Communions, national or confessional, were separated from the Roman See.
Sect. 19
However, since these Churches and ecclesial Communities, on account of their different origins, and different teachings in matters of doctrine on the spiritual life, vary considerably not only with us, but also among themselves, the task of describing them at all adequately is extremely difficult. . . . It must however be admitted that in these Churches and ecclesial Communities there exist important differences from the Catholic Church, not only of an historical, sociological, psychological and cultural character, but especially in the interpretation of revealed truth.
Sect. 20
Our thoughts turn first to those Christians who make open confession of Jesus Christ as God and Lord and as the sole Mediator between God and men, to the glory of the one God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit. We are aware indeed that there exist considerable divergences from the doctrine of the Catholic Church concerning Christ Himself, the Word of God made flesh, the work of redemption, and consequently, concerning the mystery and ministry of the Church, and the role of Mary in the plan of salvation. But we rejoice to see that our separated brethren look to Christ as the source and center of Church unity.
Sect. 21
A love and reverence of Sacred Scripture which might be described as devotion, leads our brethren to a constant meditative study of the sacred text. . . . But while the Christians who are separated from us hold the divine authority of the Sacred Books, they differ from ours-some in one way, some in another-regarding the relationship between Scripture and the Church. For, according to Catholic belief, the authentic teaching authority of the Church has a special place in the interpretation and preaching of the written word of God.
Sect. 22
Whenever the Sacrament of Baptism is duly administered as Our Lord instituted it, and is received with the right dispositions, a person is truly incorporated into the crucified and glorified Christ. . . . The ecclesial Communities which are separated from us lack the fullness of unity with us flowing from Baptism, and though we believe they have not retained the proper reality of the eucharistic mystery in its fullness, especially because of the absence of the sacrament of Orders.
Sect. 23
The daily Christian life of these brethren is nourished by their faith in Christ and strengthened by the grace of Baptism and by hearing the word of God. This shows itself in their private prayer, their meditation on the Bible, in their Christian family life, and in the worship of a community gathered together to praise God. Moreover, their form of worship sometimes displays notable features of the liturgy which they shared with us of old. Their faith in Christ bears fruit in praise and thanksgiving for the blessings received from the hands of God. Among them, too, is a strong sense of justice and a true charity toward their neighbor. This active faith has been responsible for many organizations for the relief of spiritual and material distress, the furtherance of the education of youth, the improvement of the social conditions of life, and the promotion of peace throughout the world.

 

[Craigbythesea]

The goal of the Roman Catholic Church is to bring all religions underneath its umbrella.

This statement is contrary to fact. The fact is that the goal of the Roman Catholic Church is to bring the Protestant Churches back into perfect harmony with it. They have no goal whatsoever to bring "non-Christian religions" into harmony with it, but rather to convert them to Christianity. Note that the term "non-Christian religions" is never used in reference to Baptists or other Protestants.