Must salvation include correct doctrine?

[Craigbythesea]

I, like many others, believe that eventually the pope may very likely be the false prophet spoken of in Revelation 13 (the second beast). At that time there will be one world-wide church. I for one am glad that I will not be there.

Pitifully ridiculous nonsense!

 

[DHK]

Revelation 13:14-15 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

Ridiculous? NO. Reality, yes.
There will come a time when all the world will bow down to one god. They will believe a "lie," will be deceived. Either they will worship this god under this new one world religion, or they will be killed. This is not nonsense. It is precisely what the Word of God says.
DHK

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Craigbythesea:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> The goal of the Roman Catholic Church is to bring all religions underneath its umbrella.

This statement is contrary to fact. The fact is that the goal of the Roman Catholic Church is to bring the Protestant Churches back into perfect harmony with it. They have no goal whatsoever to bring "non-Christian religions" into harmony with it, but rather to convert them to Christianity. Note that the term "non-Christian religions" is never used in reference to Baptists or other Protestants. </font>[/QUOTE]"Non-Christian" religions? The newer catechism of the Catholic Church specifically mentions "Islam," and specifies that Muslims will be saved.

841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."

 

[Craigbythesea]

There will come a time when all the world will bow down to one god. They will believe a "lie," will be deceived. Either they will worship this god under this new one world religion, or they will be killed.

Absolute nonsense!!!

This is not nonsense. It is precisely what the Word of God says.

Only in your nightmares; only in your nightmares . I suggest you wake up and read the Bible.

 

[Craigbythesea]

The newer catechism of the Catholic Church specifically mentions "Islam," and specifies that Muslims will be saved.

Sure, after they are converted!

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Craigbythesea:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> No offence, but you are wrong. Any time they use the word Catholic Church or the word Church, capitalized, they are referring to themselves--the Roman Catholic Church--in their Catechism, in the documents of Vatican II, etc.

No, you have to read more carefully. Roman Catholics do recognize Baptists and other Protestants as Christians:

Vatican II

Decree on Ecumenism

Note: The term "separated brethren" refers to Protestants.

Unitatis Redintegratio

Introduction
Sect. 1
The restoration of unity among all Christians is one of the principal concerns of the Second Vatican Council. Christ the Lord founded one Church and one Church only. </font>[/QUOTE]This is as far as I have to read. The Church in question here is the Roman Catholic Church. In the Catholic's eyes It is the one and only true that ever was formed; there is no other. You cannot be saved any other way except through the Catholic Church. I have been through this over and over with Catholic epologists who, for the past three years have posted in our Other Religions forum up until just recently. This is the stand they take. There is no salvation outside the Catholic Church. They had come here to proseltyze, and thus are not here any longer.
To them the only Church is the Church that Peter founded at Rome, and was the first bishop (or pope) thereof. (Mat.16:18). That is the "Church," known today as the Roman Catholic Church.
DHK

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Craigbythesea:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> The newer catechism of the Catholic Church specifically mentions "Islam," and specifies that Muslims will be saved.

Sure, after they are converted!

</font>[/QUOTE]Do you even read what I post. They assume that the Muslims are already saved by virtue of the fact that "Abraham was their spirtitual father also."
The Catholic religion is a false religion. It is not a Christian relgion. It resembles Hinduism in many ways. A Catholic bows down to many different statues, just like a Hindu does. The only difference is that the Hindu is honest and the Catholic isn't. The Hindu is honest enough to admit that all these little statues that he prays before are his gods. In the same way Catholics practice idolatry, but will never admit it. It is a works based religion, containing much false doctrine, superstitions, and idolatry.

The typicl Catholic is just as lost as the typical Muslim.
DHK

 

[Craigbythesea]

Catholic epologists who, for the past three years have posted in our Other Religions forum up until just recently. This is the stand they take. There is no salvation outside the Catholic Church. They had come here to proseltyze, and thus are not here any longer.

Those monkeys apparently didn't know any more about the Roman Catholic Church than you do. Some people believe what they want to believe even if it is contrary to fact. Personally, I believe the truth—even if I don’t like what it is.

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Craigbythesea:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Catholic epologists who, for the past three years have posted in our Other Religions forum up until just recently. This is the stand they take. There is no salvation outside the Catholic Church. They had come here to proseltyze, and thus are not here any longer.

Those monkeys apparently didn't know any more about the Roman Catholic Church than you do. Some people believe what they want to believe even if it is contrary to fact. Personally, I believe the truth—even if I don’t like what it is. </font>[/QUOTE]So I can quote to you what I learned as a Catholic; quote from the Catechism, quote from the documents of Vatican II, quote from well-educated Catholic apologists, and yet the only person you will believe is yourself. Amazing!!
DHK

 

[Craigbythesea]

So I can quote to you what I learned as a Catholic; quote from the Catechism, quote from the documents of Vatican II, quote from well-educated Catholic apologists, and yet the only person you will believe is yourself. Amazing!!

Your IFBitis is showing. I place a greater amount of weight on what the Pope says about Catholic doctrine than I do on what some silly Catholic layman on the BB say about Catholic doctrine, and you say that the only person that I will believe is myself. Amazing!!! And all the more so when I was the one who first appealed to the documents of Vatican II!!! Here is another quote from the documents of Vatican II (which I do believe

):

1. In our time, when day by day mankind is being drawn closer together, and the ties between different peoples are becoming stronger, the Church examines more closely her relationship to non-Christian religions. In her task of promoting unity and love among men, indeed among nations, she considers above all in this declaration what men have in common and what draws them to fellowship.

One is the community of all peoples, one their origin, for God made the whole human race to live over the face of the earth. One also is their final goal, God. His providence, His manifestations of goodness. His saving design extend to all men, until that time when the elect will be united in the Holy City, the city ablaze with the glory of God, where the nations will walk in His light.

Men expect from the various religions answers to the unsolved riddles of the human condition, which today, even as in former times, deeply stir the hearts of men: What is man? What is the meaning, the aim of our life? What is moral good, what sin? Whence suffering and what purpose does it serve? Which is the road to true happiness? What are death, judgment and retribution after death? What, finally, is that ultimate inexpressible mystery which encompasses our existence: whence do we come, and where are we going?

2. From ancient times down to the present, there is found among various peoples a certain perception of that hidden power which hovers over the course of things and over the events of human history; at times some indeed have come to the recognition of a Supreme Being, or even of a Father. This perception and recognition penetrates their lives with a pro-found religious sense.

Religions, however, that are bound up with an advanced culture have struggled to answer the same questions by means of more refined concepts and a more developed language. Thus in Hinduism, men contemplate the divine mystery and express it through an inexhaustible abundance of myths and through searching philosophical inquiry. They seek freedom from the anguish of our human condition either through ascetical practices or profound meditation or a flight to God with love and trust. Again, Buddhism, in its various forms, realizes the radical insufficiency of this changeable world; it teaches a way by which men, in a devout and confident spirit, may be able either to acquire the state of perfect liberation, or attain, by their own efforts or through higher help, supreme illumination. Likewise, other religions found every-where try to counter the restlessness of the human heart, each in its own manner, by proposing "ways," comprising teachings, rules of life, and sacred rites.

The Catholic Church rejects nothing that is true and holy in these religions. She regards with sincere reverence those ways of conduct and of life, those precepts and, teachings which, though differing in many aspects from the ones she holds and sets forth, nonetheless often reflect a ray of that Truth which enlightens all men. Indeed, she proclaims, and ever must proclaim Christ "the way, the truth, and the life" (John 14:6), in whom men may find the fulness of religious life, in whom God has reconciled all things to Himself.

The Church, therefore, exhorts her sons, that through dialogue and collaboration with the followers of other religions, carried out with prudence and love and in witness to the Christian faith and life, they recognize, preserve and promote the good things, spiritual and moral, as well as the socio-cultural values found among these men.

3. The Church regards with esteem also the Moslems. They adore the one God, living and subsisting in Himself, merciful and all-powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth, who has spoken to men; they take pains to submit whole-heartedly to even His inscrutable decrees, just as Abraham, with whom the faith of Islam takes pleasure in linking itself, submitted to God. Though they do not acknowledge Jesus as God, they revere Him as a prophet. They also honor Mary, His virgin Mother; at times they even call on her with devotion. In addition, they await the day of judgment when God will render their deserts to all those who have been raised up from the dead. Finally, they value the moral life and worship God especially through prayer, almsgiving and fasting.

Since in the course of centuries not a few quarrels and hostilities have arisen between Christians and Moslems, this sacred synod urges all to forget the past and to work sincerely for mutual understanding and to preserve as well as to promote together for the benefit of all mankind social justice and moral welfare, as well as peace and freedom.

The Catholics want to love the Muslims into the Kingdom; you, on the other hand, apparently want to express so much hatred toward them that they will not even consider the truth of the Gospel.

But, again, the question is whether or not the Roman Catholic Church is a Christian denomination or a non-Christian cult. Your attitude is enough to make me wonder about a few things myself. I certainly find the attitude expressed above by the Pope to be a more “Christian” attitude than the attitude expressed above by you.

 

[Russ Kelly]

Craig
You are using the same identical arguments to support Roman Catholicism that you used against me to support Seventh-day Adventism.

Question: Does not the RC Church teach that its ecumenical council decress are infallible and unchangeable? If so, then why is Vatican II so different from all of the anathemas against Protestants found in the Couhcil of Trent?

You said earlier: "The fact is that the goal of the Roman Catholic Church is to bring the Protestant Churches back into perfect harmony with it."

 

[Russ Kelly]

Craig
You are using the same identical arguments to support Roman Catholicism that you used against me to support Seventh-day Adventism.

Question: Does not the RC Church teach that its ecumenical council decress are infallible and unchangeable? If so, then why is Vatican II so different from all of the anathemas against Protestants found in the Couhcil of Trent?

You said earlier: "The fact is that the goal of the Roman Catholic Church is to bring the Protestant Churches back into perfect harmony with it." This is true!!! However, like DHK says, the RC Church does not intend to compromise in any area of doctrine in order to accomplish this because they will not admit error.

I have carefully read the long post about what Vatican II says. Once again, I felt like I was reading the cleverly worded subtle doctrines of the SDA Statement of Faith. Wolves in sheep's clothing. God tells the RC and the SDA "Come out of her my people."

You say that you believe the "Truth." Can you summarize your concept of "truth" in a few paragraphs? Your desire to be a public defender of so many faiths puzzles me. Are you a universalist?

 

[Charles Meadows]

Several points:

The RCC certainly does say that the separated brethren (particularly those who were once UNDERSTANDING members of the RCC) are on risky ground. The catechism does however stipulate that it is possible for them to get to heaven if God sees fit.

I don't think Craig is a universalist - and I see nothing wrong with statements of good will toward nonbelievers. I, as many here know, am a former catholic (after Vatican II). I am now, by considered choice, a baptist. One of a few negative things I've noticed about evangelical protestantism is the eager tendency toward condemnation of those who believe differently. Jesus, while not doctrinally compromising, still lived a very compassionate earthly life according to the gospels. Why do we try so hard to imitate Paul's zeal instead of Christ's kindness? We should step back some from seeing scripture as a series of quotable one liners and see some of Jesus' example. And that doesn't mean giving in doctrinally.

 

[Craigbythesea]

You say that you believe the "Truth." Can you summarize your concept of "truth" in a few paragraphs?

No.

Your desire to be a public defender of so many faiths puzzles me.

2 = so many?

Are you a universalist?

No.

 

[Russ Kelly]

Craig and Charles

As you guys may have noticed, I am with you when it comes to giving enough slack to other Christian denominations and welcome them as fellow believers.

I believe that God sees our basic fundamental faith in Jesus as Lord and Savior and saves us acfcording to that simple childlike faith. He then overlooks some of our other crazy doctrines which may keep us from deeper doctrinal knowledge of the wonders of Calvary.

As an SDA pastor in North Dakota in the mid '70s, my closest friend was the local Catholic priest!! Yet the two churches are polls apart in doctrine and anathemetize each other.

I am only saying that both the SDA and RC statements of faith, WHEN READ VERY CAREFULLY, are only a smoke-screen for their underlying desire to convert everybody else to their individual churches. Neither is willing to yield or renounce any doctrine to be reconciled with others.

If you cannot discern this in very careful reading of their statements, then I consider you to be rather gullible, or naive. That is my honest take on the matter.

 

[Charles Meadows]

Russ,

Remember that what Cardinal Ratzinger thinks doesn't necessarily define the feelings of the average Catholic individual. My entire family (not my wife's side though) is still Catholic but yet they do not proselytize me. My younger brother will likely end up a Jesuit priest - but he doesn't beat me with the catechism.

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Charles Meadows:
Russ,

Remember that what Cardinal Ratzinger thinks doesn't necessarily define the feelings of the average Catholic individual. My entire family (not my wife's side though) is still Catholic but yet they do not proselytize me. My younger brother will likely end up a Jesuit priest - but he doesn't beat me with the catechism.

I wish my parents or other relatives would (i.e. beat me with a catechesm). Then, at least, we would have something to talk about. My family are all Catholic, my parents devoutly so. But discussing religion is a taboo. In fact none of my family is open to it. They believe that the Catholic Church saves; there is no salvation outside of the Catholic Church (as they have been indoctrinated all of their lives). Some quotes:
"I keep the Ten Commandments."
"I am not a sinner."

Why do I say that it is impossible to be a Catholic and be saved at the same time? Because of my own experience. I have been in my parents shoes. He doesn't know what the gospel is, nor does he want to hear it. If he does hear it, he will just reject it, for the Catholic Church knows better; it will save him, not the gospel. He is blind to the simple truth of the gospel message due to indoctrination of the heresies of the Catholic Church.
The doctrines of the Catholic Church damns people to Hell every day.
DHK

 

[Craigbythesea]

Neither is willing to yield or renounce any doctrine to be reconciled with others.

Russ,

Are you willing to yield or renounce any doctrine to be reconciled with the others, or are you just like the SDA's and Roman Catholics?

 

[Craigbythesea]

DHK,

I suggest that you find a good priest that knows Catholic theology and have him talk with your parents. Unlike many Protestant ministers, Roman Catholic priests often have little knowledge of the Bible and have degrees in psychology, sociology, or some other field very different from theology. It sounds to be as though perhaps your parents are under the influence of one of these priests who does not know his Bible. A good priest, who knows the Bible and Catholic doctrine, and who loves God and His word, might be able to help your parent come to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ and become true rather than renegade Catholics.

Some years ago I had a Catholic friend who believed that it was wrong for him to read the Bible in the absence of a priest to guide him. I went with him to visit his priest, and his priest told him emphatically that it was important for him to read his Bible everyday, and that if he could not understand a Catholic translation, to read a simplified Protestant translation like Good News for Modern Man, and to read it everyday. A good priest is a good Catholic, and a good Catholic is a good Christian. A lousy priest is a poor excuse for a Catholic, and an even worse excuse for a Christian.

Unlike Dr. Meadows, I have never been a Catholic and I have been to a Catholic mass only three or four times. On one of these occasions, a midnight Christmas Eve Mass in a large cathedral, the local Bishop preached on being born again. The following year, the same Bishop preached a lousy sermon, and I could tell from the atmosphere in the cathedral that very many other persons shared my observation that it was a lousy sermon.

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Craigbythesea:
A good priest, who knows the Bible and Catholic doctrine, and who loves God and His word, might be able to help your parent come to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ and become true rather than renegade Catholics.

You can't be a good priest, love God, and know and love God's Word all at the same time. Either you are a good priest and devoted to the Catholic Church and all of its anti-Biblical doctrines; or you are a bad priest, believe in the Bible, and will leave the Catholic Church because the Bible commands you to do so. No man can serve two masters.

A good priest is a good Catholic, and a good Catholic is a good Christian.

That is like saying a good J.W. is a good Christian. Or, a good Moonie is a good Christian. Where do you draw the line? As has been asked of you before, "Are you a universalist?" The Catholic Church is as much a cult as these others that have been mentioned. You can't be a good Catholic and a good Christian at the same time. If you are truly a Christian in the Catholic Church, you will leave it immediately. If you don't leave the Catholic Church, it is evidence that you are not saved.

Unlike Dr. Meadows, I have never been a Catholic and I have been to a Catholic mass only three or four times. On one of these occasions, a midnight Christmas Eve Mass in a large cathedral, the local Bishop preached on being born again. The following year, the same Bishop preached a lousy sermon, and I could tell from the atmosphere in the cathedral that very many other persons shared my observation that it was a lousy sermon.

As I have already mentioned I was a Catholic for twenty years. I considered going into the priesthood. I never heard the gospel once in the Catholic Church. I don't know what you heard from that bishop. But the Catholic doctrine of being born again is to be baptized. Check their catechism. You are born again through the sacrament of Baptism. They believe in baptismal regeneration, and as you should know practice infant baptism for this very reason. This is heresy.
DHK