Must salvation include correct doctrine?

[Craigbythesea]

She also said "Be all and only for Jesus, and let Him use you without him having to consult you first."

She also said "Christ is my Saviour, in whom I trust."

She also said "Christ has paid the price of my transgressions."

She also said "Christ lives in my heart".

The point is that no matter how good a person may appear before man or God, their good works or "love" will not get them to Heaven. Only trusting Christ can get a person to Heaven. Many Muslims have shown great love, evidenced by their many good deeds, which most of us never hear about. Will they go to Heaven? No. Love and good works do not save: whether one be Catholic, Baptist, Muslim, Buddhist, or otherwise. Only faith in Christ saves. That is the only point I was making.

I was not aware that trusting in Christ as one’s savior and believing that he paid the price for my sins was a Muslim or Buddhist doctrine rather than what the Bible teaches

. I stand corrected . DHK is right, and I am wrong . Now I have to decide if I want to be a Muslim or a Buddhist . I hope that I make the right decision

.

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Craigbythesea:
Now I have to decide if I want to be a Muslim or a Buddhist . I hope that I make the right decision

God bless you as you make your decision. I hope you make the right one. Just remember that salvation is NOT by works (as the Catholic Church plus all other religions of the world teach), but it is by faith alone, faith in Christ. I hope that will help in your quest.
DHK

 

[Craigbythesea]

I see that one of the posters in this thread is missing a page from his King James Bible . Therefore I shall perform a work of grace (not a work of the law) and provide him with some of the words that are on that missing page:

James 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
James 2:15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
James 2:16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
James 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
James 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
James 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
James 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
James 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
James 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
James 2:25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
Jam 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Of course the translators of the KJV were mostly Anglicans with a whole lot of influence in their theology from the Roman Catholic Church , so perhaps our dear poster would prefer that I provide for him a Baptist translation of the above passage

. Therefore, here is a link to the Holman Christian Standard Bible:

http://www.broadmanholman.com/hcsb.asp

 

[DHK]

That begs the question Craig.
Do you believe your own statement of faith:

Salvation – I believe in salvation by grace through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. I further believe that this salvation is based upon the sovereign grace of God, was purchased by Jesus Christ on the cross, and is received by faith, apart from any human merit, works, or ritual. I further believe salvation results in righteous living, good works, and proper social concern.

OR,

Do you believe that salvation is by works, as the Catholic Church teaches.
DHK

 

[Craigbythesea]

One Protestant interpretation of the relationship between faith and works is as follows:

Jesus, Peter, Paul, and James were all Jews. To the Jewish mind faith is inseparable from works (this is illustrated especially well in Hebrews 11 where we see a lengthy list of people whose faith included acts of faith, i.e., works. Some individuals today, however, don’t understand the New Testament because they fail to understand that parts of it were written primarily with a Jewish audience in mind, and parts of it were written primarily with a Gentile audience in mind, and parts of it were written primarily with a confused audience in mind. Some Christians, having only a shadow of an understanding of the Scriptures, totally separate faith from works and therefore have an unbiblical faith. Can an unbiblical faith save anyone?

To rephrase the above, Biblically speaking, faith and works are inseparable. Many Jews living under the Old Covenant understood works to be a mere keeping of the Law, and Paul wrote to correct that point of view, and wrote that works of the Law can save no one. Scriptures used to support this interpretation include the following:

Rom 9:31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
Rom 9:32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the Law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the Law: for by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified.

Gal 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Gal 3:5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the Law, or by the hearing of faith?

Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the Law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

Paul’s words were misunderstood by some to mean that one can be saved through easy believeism. James argued very strongly that that was not the case:

Jam 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
Jam 2:15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
Jam 2:16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
Jam 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
Jam 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
Jam 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
Jam 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Jam 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Jam 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
Jam 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
Jam 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
Jam 2:25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
Jam 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Notice that the word Law is totally absent in the above words written by James. There are works that are not works of the law, and these works are inseparable from true saving faith. Abraham didn’t just believe—he did something, as did Rahab. Again, see Hebrews 11 for a list of people whose faith was a true saving faith rather than intellectual assent to an appealing portion of the Gospel Message to the exclusion of the rest of it.

According to this view, any “Catholics” who believes that they are saved by works of the Law are in trouble—big time! Any “Christians” who believes that they are saved by a faith that excludes works as described by James are also in trouble—big time! One must take into account the entire counsel of God—not just the parts that seemingly to him let him off the hook.

Another Protestant interpretation of the relationship between faith and works is as follows:

James was writing about two justifications. That is, Christians are justified before God through a faith that excludes works of any kind, including all acts of repentance, but justified before men through faith that includes works.

There are many other Protestant interpretations of the relationship between faith and works. Perhaps some posters would like to share their interpretation on this matter.

My personal interpretation is that the New Testament is not 100% clear regarding the relationship between faith and works. Therefore I hold off on being overly critical of those who have divergent views, so long as they don’t believe that we are saved through works of the Law. The belief that we are saved through works of the Law. is clearly not only a false doctrine, but a doctrine that separates the believers in that doctrine from the body of Christ.

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Craigbythesea:
My personal interpretation is that the New Testament is not 100% clear regarding the relationship between faith and works. Therefore I hold off on being overly critical of those who have divergent views, so long as they don’t believe that we are saved through works of the Law. The belief that we are saved through works of the Law. is clearly not only a false doctrine, but a doctrine that separates the believers in that doctrine from the body of Christ.

I am really not concerned with your interpretation between faith and works, or the writings of Paul and the writings of James. That is just another red herring.
I posted what your statement of faith says--that salvation is by grace through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.

The Catholics believe that salvation is through a system of works--keeping the seven sacraments. They believe that grace comes only through the sacraments, such as the sacrament of baptism. Theirs is a religion of works. It is not by grace through faith as your statement of faith states.

You cannot serve two masters. You cannot believe in two opposing theologies. Why do you skirt around these issues. Either you believe your own statement of faith or you do not. Why are acting like you are a univeralist, and defending the Catholic position?
DHK

 

[Craigbythesea]

I am really not concerned with your interpretation between faith and works, or the writings of Paul and the writings of James.

One could get the impression from reading this that the poster is not concerned at all with what the Bible teaches about saving faith, but only with his personal, secular concept of what faith is . What the Bible says is irrelevant! The Seventh-day Adventists and Roman Catholics are damned to hell because he says so, not because the Bible says so . What does the Bible have to do it

! They are damned to hell and that is all there is to it.

If you don’t agree with his divisive, exclusionary teaching, you are a universalist even though you categorically exclude from the body of Christ all who are not Christians saved by grace through faith. If that is being a universalist, what do you call the one who includes everyone in the body of Christ, a non-universalist???

 

[Craigbythesea]

Why do you skirt around these issues [and drag the Bible into the conversation?].

To all readers except DHK:

I do NOT believe that quoting what the Bible says about faith and its relationship to works is skirting around the subject of faith and works.

 

[freeatlast]

Originally posted by Russ Kelly:
I am frankly appalled at those in the 7th Day ADventist thread who seem to think that correct doctrine is essential for salvation.

Has the Holy Spirit convicted you as a sinner? Have you yielded to the convincting power of the Holy Spirit and accepted God's forgiveness by faith in Jesus Christ? If so, have you been declared justified by faith? How pure was your doctrine at that time?

How many of those at Pentecost understood the deity of Christ, the trinity, the emmanation of the Spirit, the definitiion of the church, the inspiration of the New Testament???

How many centuries did it take for the church to agree on the Trinity and the Holy Spirit?

Which doctrines do you think are essential for salvation? Which ones are of lesser importance?

If doctrinal purity is esential for salvation, then we are just as bad as the SDAs and are just as EXCLUSIVE as they are, and are making ourselves just as CULTISH as they are.

Russell Kelly, Ph.D.

The only correct doctrine for salvation is to come to repentance towards God and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Craigbythesea]

The only correct doctrine for salvation is to come to repentance towards God and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.

Amen!

 

[wopik]

The Apostle John saw some stranger casting out demons in Jesus' name, so John tried to stop him, because the man was not one of the Twelve Apostles -- in other words, "he was not one of us"; he can't be allowed to do what we do.

Jesus told John to leave him alone! -- "Forbid him not" (Mark 9: 38-41). "Do not stop him" (NRSV)

"Whoever is not against us is for us" (v.40).

 

[wopik]

Keeping the Sabbath day will not "earn" anyone justification from past sins, or "earn" anyone an entrance into the Kingdom of God! But Sabbath-breaking is a sin, just like stealing or murder is a sin.

We must repent of sin in order to be justified; to have our guilty past removed! We have already seen that sin is the transgression of the law (I John 3:4). When we break God's law, we are under the sentence of death, for the wages of sin is death (Rom. 6:23).

When we repent of having broken God's law (Acts 2:38), God forgives us of having sinned. Now, we are justified; redeemed, made right in God's sight. Now, God has forgiven us for the sins we committed, and has applied the blood sacrifice of His Son and our Savior, Jesus Christ of Nazareth, who died in our stead, thus paying the penalty for sin.

Now, we are under God's merciful grace! What is "grace"? It is undeserved, unmerited pardon for our past sins. It is not license to continue to live in sin; to thumb our noses at God's Ten Commandments; to ignore His Sabbaths.

Paul wrote, "What then? shall we sin [break God's laws], because we are not under the law [the law no longer holds the penalty of death over our heads], but under grace? God forbid!

"Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?" (Rom. 6:15,16).

Now, think! If you are arrested for a crime, and the judge sentences you to a year in prison, but you are forgiven for that crime, and allowed to go free, are you now free to go out, and commit the same crime? Of course not.

Forgiveness of sin does not mean we are now free to sin!

 

[wopik]

Notice the picture of life on this earth shortly after Jesus Christ returns; life on this earth even before the bodies of all those who rebelled against God have been consumed by fire:

"And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one Sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the Lord.

"And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die [maggots do not die — they hatch into flies], neither shall their fire be quenched [Gehenna fire!]: and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh" (Isa. 66:23, 24).

Yes, it will be an abhorrent sight! A horrible, stinking, abominable sight of bloated, dead, burning physical bodies who will be thrown into Gehenna fire, to become ashes under the feet of those who have received Jesus Christ, repented of sin, been baptized and begotten as children of God, and who have learned to obey God (Mal. 4:1-3).

Such a fate need not occur to any human being. God Almighty pleads with all of us, urging us to obey His laws that it might be well with us, and with our children and grandchildren.

God loves sinners! He hates the sin, but He loves the sinner who was enslaved by sin.

Even as Ezekiel pleaded with Israel, "Turn ye [repent ye!], turn ye, for why will you die, O Israel?" So God pleads with all mankind today, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit" (Acts 2:38).

 

[Russ Kelly]

John 6:29
This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent. KJV

John 16:8-9
8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
9 Of sin, because they believe not on me; KJV

Is it possible that SDAs and RCs who THINK they will be saved by works of the law will dicover that God actually saves them by faith alone???

In other words, can you do the right thing for the wrong reason and still be aved? Isn't the cult member who is living a godly life and doing good works essentially reaching out to God through by faith, even though misguided?

Will some of us be surprised when we reach heaven to find out who really made it?

 

[Russ Kelly]

wopik

This thread is not about the sabbath!

You already have countless threads about the sabbath/

Is it possibel to believe that the Sabbath is God's truth and still be saved? Yes.

Is it possible to deny the Sabbath as God's truth and still be saved? Yes.

The presence or absence of the Sabbath as a doctrine essential for salvation is not a Baptist point of dispute, so please take your thread elsewhere.

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Russ Kelly:
John 6:29
This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent. KJV

John 16:8-9
8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
9 Of sin, because they believe not on me; KJV

Is it possible that SDAs and RCs who THINK they will be saved by works of the law will dicover that God actually saves them by faith alone???

In other words, can you do the right thing for the wrong reason and still be aved? Isn't the cult member who is living a godly life and doing good works essentially reaching out to God through by faith, even though misguided?

Will some of us be surprised when we reach heaven to find out who really made it?

That is where I would disagree. The Catholic knows that he is "working" his way toward heaven. That is why he goes through all of the variuos rituals of confession to a priest, and the necessary penance, the impartation of grace through the seven sacraments, praying the rosary, the gaining of indulgences to lessen your days in purgatory. This is all works. The entire sacrifice of the mass is works. It is a works based religion, that leads a person to think that, 'if I am a good Catholic I will eventually get to Heaven.'
The average Catholics has no idea of the Biblical concept of the New Birth. simply because the new birth in the catechism is taught as baptism--infant baptism to be specific.

If one is truly saved by faith in Christ, and not of works, then how can works save?
DHK

 

[DavidFWhite3]

Originally posted by Dr. Bob:
But had I known and rejected it, what would that say of my position on the sinlessness of Jesus the Christ? [/QB]

Are you saying Jesus was sinsless because he was born of a virgin? If so, are you also saying Jesus was incapable of sinning? If so, are you denying the humanity of Jesus?

He is not sinless because of his genetics. He is sinless due to his perfect obedience.

 

[DavidFWhite3]

Why doesn't anybody here ask the most important question. What did Jesus say you have to do to be saved? What did Jesus say judgement would be? How about a little Jesus on the subject please.

 

[Russ Kelly]

DHK
You wrote: "The average Catholics has no idea of the Biblical concept of the New Birth. simply because the new birth in the catechism is taught as baptism--infant baptism to be specific."

I totally agree.

Then you wrote: "If one is truly saved by faith in Christ, and not of works, then how can works save? "

I did not imply that. I agree with you.

What do we do with Matt 25:38-40
38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. KJV

They thought that they were performing good works for one reason and discovered that they were actually doing them for Christ.

I do not pretend to have the answers. I am asking more than challenging your ideas. Your comments have been very insightful and thoughtful. I appreciate the good dialog.

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Russ Kelly:

What do we do with Matt 25:38-40
38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. KJV

They thought that they were performing good works for one reason and discovered that they were actually doing them for Christ.

I do not pretend to have the answers.

Neither do I. I also realize that people's views of eschatology differ, and that is where this passage (in my view) fits in. The preceding verses say:

Matthew 25:31-34 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

Verse 31 sets the scene with the Coming of the Lord Jesus Christ in all of His glory. I believe this takes place at the end of the Tribulation, and at the beginning of His Millennial reign on earth. At the beginning of this time there will be a judgement of nations (the sheep and the goats). He will divide the nations accordingly: the sheep--those who have been friendly to His sheep (or brethren), and the goats (those who have not been friendly to his brethren). The question then is, Who are "his brethren?" Since Jesus is coming for the nation of Israel (Rom.11:26), I believe that He is speaking of those nations who have been friendly towards the Jews as sheep, and those nations who have hated the Jews (such as Islamic) as the goats. In this way they will be separated. The event happens right at the end of the Tribulation, just before the Millennial Kingdom, and would not have any bearing on one's personal salvation, since the day or age of grace had long since been over.
Just my thoughts.
DHK