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Must we obey the gospel to be saved???
- Thread starter SolaScriptura
- Start date
Why do you say in the first part of your post that "Paul taught that every Christian had been baptized," which, with the exception of the thief, might be true. It would be more accurate to say should be be baptized. At any rate, in the Book of Acts they were baptized as you pointed out. Every "Christian" was baptized. You said it yourself. By your very statement, baptism follows salvation. It follows conversion. It follows regeneration. It is a symbolic step of obedience done AFTER one is saved. Thus you correctly used the word "Christian," and then went on in the rest of your post and contradicted what you had just said.
DHK
Dhk:
To assert a thing does not prove it. The Bible does teach that water refers to baptism. You have provided no evidence to the contrary. The original language itself is aligned against you. The totality of evidence on water baptism and John 3 is against you. The history of water baptism and the church is against you. The rational conclusion to be drawn is that I Cor. 14:38 is applicable to your irrational assertion of having not read your post and try again.
Frank
To assert a thing does not prove it. The Bible does teach that water refers to baptism. You have provided no evidence to the contrary. The original language itself is aligned against you. The totality of evidence on water baptism and John 3 is against you. The history of water baptism and the church is against you. The rational conclusion to be drawn is that I Cor. 14:38 is applicable to your irrational assertion of having not read your post and try again.
Frank
How could the "born of water" relate to the original birth of a person. A woman's water breaks, the child is born. The verse gives "water" as in inclusion with no specific address to its actual context.
"Except a man be born of water (the birth from his mother) and of the spirit (2nd birth, also born again) he cannot enter into the Kingdom.
John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
[ June 03, 2002, 01:44 PM: Message edited by: post-it ]
"Except a man be born of water (the birth from his mother) and of the spirit (2nd birth, also born again) he cannot enter into the Kingdom.
John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
[ June 03, 2002, 01:44 PM: Message edited by: post-it ]
dhk:
Paul's letters were addressed to Christians. If you study the context, Paul is stating HOW they became Christians. Instead of avoiding the evidence, why not try an original approach, take the text and try the following:
1. Ask, What does the passage say?
2. What do the words mean?
3. Whom is speaking to who?
4. What is the immediate context.
5. What is the remote context?
6. How do this passage harmonize with the totality of evidence?
7. How does it apply to me?
This will allow one to know the truth. ( Jn. 8:32). Remember, the sum total of thy words are truth.( Psalms 119:160).
Frank
Paul's letters were addressed to Christians. If you study the context, Paul is stating HOW they became Christians. Instead of avoiding the evidence, why not try an original approach, take the text and try the following:
1. Ask, What does the passage say?
2. What do the words mean?
3. Whom is speaking to who?
4. What is the immediate context.
5. What is the remote context?
6. How do this passage harmonize with the totality of evidence?
7. How does it apply to me?
This will allow one to know the truth. ( Jn. 8:32). Remember, the sum total of thy words are truth.( Psalms 119:160).
Frank
Let's try it again Frank:
John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Two things are required for the new birth: water and the Spirit. Can we agree on that? One of these agencies is the Holy Spirit: you must be born of the Holy Spirit; Can we agree on that?
Now, can you honestly tell me that water refers to baptism in the light of 1 Peter 1:23
1Pet.1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
We are born again of only two agencies Frank, only two: the Spirit and_______, the Spirit and THE WORD! The water represents the Word!!
DHK
dhk:
Jesus said what he meant and meant what he said. One must be borm again of water and spirit. The word must be implanted in the minds of men for their to be a birth.( Romans 10:17, James 1:18,21, John 6:63).It is the words of Christ that direct men to be born of water.( MK. 16:16, Jn.3:3-7). The scholarship and the Greek language indicates that water is the element involved in the new birth. Water is water and the word is the word. The word directs man to be baptized. see last post. Water baptism is harmonious with ALL PASSAGES on this topic. See last post. History for 1400 years indicates this understanding.There is NO EVIDENCE TO INDICATE WATER IS THE WORD IN JN. 3-5.Your argument is simply a cistern a broken cistern that holds no water. ( Jer. 2:13).
Frank
Jesus said what he meant and meant what he said. One must be borm again of water and spirit. The word must be implanted in the minds of men for their to be a birth.( Romans 10:17, James 1:18,21, John 6:63).It is the words of Christ that direct men to be born of water.( MK. 16:16, Jn.3:3-7). The scholarship and the Greek language indicates that water is the element involved in the new birth. Water is water and the word is the word. The word directs man to be baptized. see last post. Water baptism is harmonious with ALL PASSAGES on this topic. See last post. History for 1400 years indicates this understanding.There is NO EVIDENCE TO INDICATE WATER IS THE WORD IN JN. 3-5.Your argument is simply a cistern a broken cistern that holds no water. ( Jer. 2:13).
Frank
dk:
The Greek language doesa not use the definitive article nor say the Holy Spirit. John 3:3-5 does not declare, or imply it is the Holy Spirit. That is an assumption. No, I do not agree the text teaches that becasue the language does nto support it. In view of the Greek language, how can you say it is the Holy Spirit?
Frank
The Greek language doesa not use the definitive article nor say the Holy Spirit. John 3:3-5 does not declare, or imply it is the Holy Spirit. That is an assumption. No, I do not agree the text teaches that becasue the language does nto support it. In view of the Greek language, how can you say it is the Holy Spirit?
Frank
John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
The word for "Spirit" is "pneuma," the same word used in each case when referring to the Holy Spirit. Notice also that it is capitalized both in verses 5 and 6. The whole point of what Jesus is talking about here is the new birth, being born from above, being born into the family of God, by the agency of the Holy Spirit. How do you deny that the word "Spirit does not refer to the Holy Spirit?" If it does not refer to the Holy Spirit then what does it refer to?
Jesus teaches that there are two types of birth: one which is of the flesh, and one which is of the Spirit (verse 6). Every one of us are born of the flesh. That is how we got into this world. But not everyone is born of the Spirit. Thus Jesus says, in verse 7, "You must be born again." You must be born into God's family. He was speaking to Nicodemus, who came to Him privately at night for fear of the Jews. The last thing that would have been on Nicodemus's mind would have been baptism. That does not even fit with the context. There is no hint of baptism in this entire discourse. He tells Nicodemus 3 times that he must be born again. There are two kinds of birth. You have been born once, of the flesh; you need to be born again--of the Spirit, the Holy Spirit, the third person of the triune Godhead. Have you been born of this Holy Spirit? If you have not, you are not born again, and will not enter the Kingdom of God. You will not enter Heaven. You are not saved. You must be born of the Spirit!
Now Jesus did say in verse five, "except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." First, be sure that you must be born of the Holy Spirit. Secondly recognize that in the matter of salvation, water is always symbolic. Jesus is talking about entering the Kingdom of God. Water, taking a bath, using a combination of hydrogen and oxygen, is not going to get me, you, or anyone else to heaven or the Kingdom of God. If that's what you believe, you are superstitious indeed. Your belief is no different than the Hindu, who believes that by washing in the Ganges River, he can wash his sins away. Water does not wash away sins, the blood of Christ does (1John 1:7). Water is symbolic. Jesus never expected Nicodemus to take water literally? How could he? What was Nicodemus supposed to do after that. We have the record that Nicodemus believed, but no record that Nicodemus was baptized.
Water is symbolic of the Word. Check the references that I have already given you.
Jesus says, "Ye are clean through the Word that I have spoken unto you." (John 15:3). The Word cleanses, just like water. It is symbolic. Look also at 1Peter 1:23.
Water cannot wash away sins!
John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
"As many as received Him" I received Jesus Christ, not when I was baptized, but when I, by faith alone, trusted Him as my Saviour. At that time He made me one of His sons ("even to them that believe on his name"). What happened at that time. Look carefully at verse 13. I was born...not of the will of man (which includes baptism), but of God. I was born of God. I was born again of God's Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirt, the third person of the triune Godhead, came and took up residence within me, and began to change me.
1Cor.6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
Rom.8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
If you have not been born again by the Holy Spirit of God, the third person of the triune Godhead, then you are "none of His," and cannot enter into the Kingdom of God.
DHK
[ June 06, 2002, 03:44 AM: Message edited by: DHK ]
dhk:
You simply deny the evidence. Jn. 3:3-5 does not use the word Holy nor use the definitive article in the original language. You do not like that but it says what it says and means what it says. If I were a Calvivnists, I would be talking in circles as you are. One rule of INTERPRETATION is to take passages as literal unless that are not harmonious with other passages. I realize that logical reasoning is not what you like to use. However, Jesus is the eternal Logos. He made our logical, rational mind, if we chose to use it. Lk. 8:11-15 is a GOOD illustration of how the word must be implanted to bear fruit.It brings forth that fruit with patience. Words only bear when they form faith.( Romans 10:13-17).Words direct a man as to " What he must do." ( Acts 2:37;9:6;16:30).
YOU HAVE TAKEN THE TEXT AND BUILT YOUR DOCTRINE AROUND AN UNSUBSTANTIATED ASSUMPTION THAT VIOLATES THE REST OF THE PASSAGES IN THE NEW TESTAMENT ON THIS SUBJECT.
Some men will follow Jesus words; some men will not follow his words and be saved.( MK. 16:16). But whosoever will let come and drink of the water of life freely.( Rev.22:17).
Frank
You simply deny the evidence. Jn. 3:3-5 does not use the word Holy nor use the definitive article in the original language. You do not like that but it says what it says and means what it says. If I were a Calvivnists, I would be talking in circles as you are. One rule of INTERPRETATION is to take passages as literal unless that are not harmonious with other passages. I realize that logical reasoning is not what you like to use. However, Jesus is the eternal Logos. He made our logical, rational mind, if we chose to use it. Lk. 8:11-15 is a GOOD illustration of how the word must be implanted to bear fruit.It brings forth that fruit with patience. Words only bear when they form faith.( Romans 10:13-17).Words direct a man as to " What he must do." ( Acts 2:37;9:6;16:30).
YOU HAVE TAKEN THE TEXT AND BUILT YOUR DOCTRINE AROUND AN UNSUBSTANTIATED ASSUMPTION THAT VIOLATES THE REST OF THE PASSAGES IN THE NEW TESTAMENT ON THIS SUBJECT.
Some men will follow Jesus words; some men will not follow his words and be saved.( MK. 16:16). But whosoever will let come and drink of the water of life freely.( Rev.22:17).
Frank
SolaScriptura
New Member
DHK:
MAny have made an attempt to let the water out of John 3:5 and the main way they do it is this - THEY SAY:
Do you see now how your logic is flawed?
MAny have made an attempt to let the water out of John 3:5 and the main way they do it is this - THEY SAY:
Well, a case could be EVEN MORE easily made that
John 6:63 "The words that I speak to you are spirit,"
Do you see now how your logic is flawed?
John 6:63 "The words that I speak to you are spirit,"
</font>[/QUOTE]Is this what you and Frank really believe, that "Spirit" in John 3:5,6 means "Word" and not "Holy Spirit?" Are you really going to try and convince us of this?
John 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
Is this too the Word or something else? Why is it described as being like the wind? What is more like the wind: the Word or the Spirit? Don't you think that when God wrote Spirit, that that is what He intended?
DHK
SolaScriptura
New Member
No. I was showing you that you can explain anything away with the patented DHK "______ represents ______" technique which you use on 'water' in John 3:5. It is actually easier to make 'spirit' represent the word than it is to make 'water' represent the word in John 3:5, since Jesus actually says "the words I speak are spirit." This was all just to show you that your Scripture twisting technique can go either way with this verse - you could use it to explain away either the water OR the spirit, and you would be dead wrong either way you went.
Here's a similar question: Don't you think that when God wrote water, that that is what He intended?
To both questions, I answer: yes! God meant 'water' when He said 'water' and 'spirit' when he said 'spirit.' NEITHER ONE OF THEM REPRESENT ANYTHING ELSE, ESPECIALLY NOT THE WORD. Stop trying to make these represent something other than themselves!
I believe that John 3:5 refers to both water baptism and the reception of the Holy Spirit. "...be baptized...and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." (Acts 2:38)
If you believe that neither of these words: "water" and "spirit," mean anything else than what they say, then let us treat them as such. First water does not mean baptism. The word for baptism is immersion. This is a simple word meaning water. It has nothing to do with baptism. The context does not allow for it. Verse six says: "That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." There is a contrast between to types of life: the flesh and the Spirit. When Jesus first told Nicodemus that he had to be born again in verse three, Nicodemus answered:
"How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?"
In keeping with the contrast of two types of birth/two types of life analogy Jesus says you must be born of water and the Spirit. One is born of both the flesh, and needs to be born of the Spirit. The water simply refers (or could refer, if you want to take this very literally) to the water in the womb that encases and protects the unborn child. Your are born of the flesh and of the water at your natural birth. Now you need to be born of the Spirit. You need to be literal here as well. Don't insert words as "gift." You need to be born OF the Spirit, not of the gift of the Spirit.
"Water" can have only two possibilities. Either you can interpret literally, as I did for you here, or you can give it a symbolic meaning of the "Word," which is consistent with Scripture. But in no way can it mean baptism. It says water, not baptism.
If you are not born OF the Spirit of God, you are not of God. This has nothing to do with baptism. Consider the parallel. Two types of birth. Two types of life. One is of the flesh. One is of the Spirit. If you are born once, you will die twice. If you are born twice, you will die once.
DHK
SolaScriptura
New Member
It also says Spirit not Spirit Baptism, but I know that you believe that we are born again by the baptism of the Holy Spirit, so your own argument defeats you. It says Spirit, not [Spirit] baptism.
Anyway, Jesus is describing the NEW birth and says it consists of BOTH water and spirit. In John 3:5 the sentence is wholly and only about the NEW not the old.
It also says Spirit not Spirit Baptism, but I know that you believe that we are born again by the baptism of the Holy Spirit, so your own argument defeats you. It says Spirit, not [Spirit] baptism.
Anyway, Jesus is describing the NEW birth and says it consists of BOTH water and spirit. In John 3:5 the sentence is wholly and only about the NEW not the old.</font>[/QUOTE]You "KNOW" what I believe? How's that? Esp? Don't read into Scripture that which is not there. I never said that one is born again by the baptism of the Holy Spirit. I do not beieve that, and my argument does not defeat myself. We are born of water and of the Spirt. That is what I said. There is no baptism there. Don't read baptism into this verse. It isn't there. You must be born of the Spirit, the third person of the triune Godhead, deity, in other words, God (John 1:12,13). When one comes to Christ as a sinner, admits his sinful condition to Him, recognizes His need for a Saviour, and on the basis of the shed blood of Jesus Christ, in faith, calls upon His name, then: Jesus Christ, by the power of the Holy Spirit will come and take up residence in the life of that individual. He at that time will be born into God's family. He will be born of God. He will be born of the Spirit. He will be born of the Word of God (1Pet.1:23)--symbolic of the water in John 3:5. He becomes a child of God, born into His family. This is the new birth. I said nothing of baptism. This is salvation; not baptism.
DHK
SolaScriptura
New Member
I recall you saying concerning 1 Peter 3:21 that the baptism of the Holy Spirit saves. You did say that didn't you?
When a person is baptized in water, that is the "washing of water by the word" (Eph 5:26) That phrase "washing of water by the word" means "a washing of water commanded by God in the word" which is obviously water baptism. So, when a person is baptized they are being "washed with water according to the word" since baptism is commanded in the word. Acts 2:38 says that in baptism we recieve the gift of the Holy Spirit and John 3:5 that we are born of water & spirit. Thus, the washing of water by the word and the reception of the gift of the Spirit are simultaneous - the birth of water (commanded by the word) and the spirit. Thus, we are born of the word (which commanded the water) and of the water (which the word commanded) and the spirit (which we recieved while in the water [baptism]).
[ June 08, 2002, 06:46 PM: Message edited by: SolaScriptura ]
My position is this:
When a person is baptized in water, that is the "washing of water by the word" (Eph 5:26) That phrase "washing of water by the word" means "a washing of water commanded by God in the word" which is obviously water baptism. So, when a person is baptized they are being "washed with water according to the word" since baptism is commanded in the word. Acts 2:38 says that in baptism we recieve the gift of the Holy Spirit and John 3:5 that we are born of water & spirit. Thus, the washing of water by the word and the reception of the gift of the Spirit are simultaneous - the birth of water (commanded by the word) and the spirit. Thus, we are born of the word (which commanded the water) and of the water (which the word commanded) and the spirit (which we recieved while in the water [baptism]).
[ June 08, 2002, 06:46 PM: Message edited by: SolaScriptura ]
Jerry Moon
New Member
It's all part of the death burial and resurection. When you repent, the old man is crucified, when you are baptized, your buried with Jesus (that's why it's important to do it in Jesus name) and when you receive the Holy Ghost, it's the resurection, you walk in newness of life.