SolaScriptura
New Member
I certainly agree with you there, Jerry.
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Like Frank, I don't care what Campbell said about the passage BUT I do know that Campbell edited a translation of the New Testament called the Living Oracles translation (which is available on the net). Since you made the above misinformed comments, I went and looked up John 3:5 in that translation and I found that the word Spirit is captialized in this translation just like in the AV, so he must have thought it refered to the Holy Spirit.It must have come along with Alexander Cambell.
Here is an error which I must point out: the Baptism of the Holy Spirit and Baptism of Fire are not the same. Notice the context - after saying "he will baptize with fire" he says "Whose fan is in his hand, and he will thoroughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire." (Mat. 3:12) Remember that baptism means "immersion." What is the immersion of fire? In light of the fact that John links the immersion of fire with "unquenchable fire" or terminology that is used by Jesus to describe hell, I would say that the baptism of fire is hell. When a sinner is cast into hell (the lake of fire) he is immersed into fire, is he not? I say then that the baptism of fire is hell and is not synonymous with the baptism of the Holy Spirit. This being the case, John the Immerser is not telling these men something that Jesus will do to all disciple - he is not saying "Jesus will baptize all disciples w/ the Holy Spirit and with fire" - rather, he is saying "Jesus will baptize some of you who stand here with the Holy Spirit, but others of you who stand here, he will send to hell."CALVIN: "Therefore as to baptize with the Holy Spirit, and with fire, is to confer the Holy Spirit..."
Sola, You have misquoted Calvin, whether deliberately or not, I cannot tell. The context of the entire quote was John 3:5, of which very concisely he says this:Originally posted by SolaScriptura:
Well, he's wrong. Immersion of fire obviously is a reference to hell.
Baptism is worthless for those baptized prior to belief. But to the one who believes and then is baptized Jesus gave the promise that he shall be saved (in Mk. 16:16). Furthermore, in Acts 2 the Bible says "they that gladly recieved the word were baptized." A person cannot claim to be a disciple of Christ (or Christian) while refusing baptism, since those that recieve God's word get baptized. You act as if I said "baptism alone saves without faith" - come now! I NEVER SAID SUCH A THING! "Baptism saves" says Peter "by the resurrection of Jesus Christ." (1 Pet. 3:21) That is that when one is baptized in faith, he is baptized (and put) into Christ and into Christ's death, buried with Christ, so that he may be resurrected by the Spirit to serve the Living God.Are all people who are baptised really Christians and do they really believe in Jesus? (Your question, paraphrased a bit)
Duh, but DHK, in the immediate context fire is used in a BAD SENSE.You do not give the fires of Hell to a saved person!!
--Cutting them down and casting them in the fire represent sending them to hell, right?(Mat 3:10) And now also the ax is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
The chaff represents the wicked (like in the parable of the tares) and burning the chafff with unquenchable fire obviously represents hell, right?(Mat 3:12 KJV) Whose fan is in his hand, and he will thoroughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.
In such extreme cases God will do as he wishes. BUT it is not up to us to say "if a dying man can be saved without baptism WE CAN TOO." An extreme case does not disprove the normal case. God commands that we be baptized and if we are able to do so we must do so.The thief on the cross was not baptised by water as well as many who accept Christ on their death beds and cannot be baptised due to their health status
(Eph 4:5 KJV) One Lord, one faith, one baptism,As many have stated, there are two batisms, one by the spirit and the other by water.
Originally posted by SolaScriptura:
This is an admission that you do not have the Holy Spirit?The baptism that is still in use by God today is the one he commanded the apostles to administer - it is administered by human hands and therefore cannot be Spirit baptism (which only Jesus Himself can administer, Mt 3:11) - it is water baptism.
Rom.8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Do you have the Spirit of Christ? How did you get it?
Did you not read my post about the difference between reception and immersion? It doesn't look like you did.This is an admission that you do not have the Holy Spirit?
Originally posted by SolaScriptura:
If I understand you correctly: First there is belief; Second there is baptism: third there is reception of the Holy Spirit.Reception of the Holy Spirit follows baptism. Saying that the baptism of the Holy Spirit only ocurred twice (in Acts 2 & Acts 10) does not mean no one today has the Holy Spirit because immersion and reception are NOT EQUAL.
Going on that formula, please tell me what magic there is in water to bring about the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in the believer. If I go take a bath, will the Holy Spirit come? Why all this superstition about H2O? You say that the Holy Spirit comes only after you get dunked in water??
Thus you believe in a works salvation, water being the agent whereby your sins are washed away, when the Bible says that the blood of Christ washes away our sin (1John 1:7).
I take you back to Romans 8:9 "But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his."
I received the Holy Spirit when I believed on Christ. I wasn't baptized (by water) until two years later, but I certainly had the indwelling of the Holy Spirit for those two years. My life had completely changed. After baptism nothing much changed. After salvation, a lot changed. I can tell you the reason why, but I hope that you can figure it out.
DHK