"My body, my choice," I believe we can say the same here!

[canadyjd]

Biden is pro-choice. He leaves the decision to end the life in the womb to the mother and/or medical experts....

Which means he is pro-murder of babies.

Let’s be precise in our language. I’m certain God will be precise at the judgement.

peace to you

 

[Baptist Believer]

Reconcile that to your position on the other case inserted (rightly or wrongly) into this thread:

He was convicted of murder. His beliefs didn’t change the truth he had killed a human being.

I assume the situation previously described took place after the ratification of the 14th Amendment. Among other things, the 14th Amendment states:

All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside. No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.​

Under the Constitution, citizenship and its protections begins at birth. The victim killed in the situation described was born, not unborn, and was protected under the Constitution.

In one case you say it's murder in spite of the perpetratorr's belief the victim was not a human being, and in another case it's "manslaughter, at worst" though the perpetrator did not believe the victim to be a human being. If it's nothing but a matter of "law was made clear,"...

Yes.

...then is the law just, no matter what?

Laws don't necessarily make things right or wrong. They can sometimes be a guide to morality, but there are also unjust laws. However, morality and criminal prosecution are two different things. Lots of immoral things are not illegal.

 

[Baptist Believer]

Exactly!!! All those supporters of abortion who use the Latin word “fetus” as a way to dehumanize the baby in the womb to allow them to say, “we are not killing babies!”, are ignorant of Latin and guilty of supporting the murder of babies.

Let's introduce some terminology:

Zygote - a single-celled organism resulting from a fertilized egg. The zygote divides to become a ball of cells that may eventually implants in the wall of the uterus. In the best of circumstances, anywhere from 25-50% of zygotes do not implant in the wall of the uterus and are expelled from the woman's body and die. If you believe "personhood begins at conception" (the official position of BaptistBoard), then more "babies" are lost naturally than ever intentionally aborted.

Embryo - the earliest stage of development from 4th-11th weeks of pregnancy. Most intentional abortions occur during this period. This is the crucial time when organs develop, as well as any birth defects.

Fetus - this is the period of growth of the developing baby. Women can begin to feel movement between the 16th and 20th weeks of development. Intentional abortions are somewhat rare during this period, and are often initiated because doctors have determined that something has gone wrong in the pregnancy.

So your assertion that "fetus" is used as a way to dehumanize the baby doesn't quite hold water. By the time a pregnancy advance to the fetal stage of development in a culture that allows abortion, the mother intends to have the baby.

 

[Baptist Believer]

Apparently you don't think you were one of these

False. You don't know what you are talking about.

 

[Baptist Believer]

Another imprecise statement, which is why the issue is language. The question is of the beginnings of human “life”, not human “personhood”.

My gall bladder, my appendix, and a pituitary tumor were all part of my human life, yet they were removed. But they were not persons.

 

[RighteousnessTemperance&]

I assume the situation previously described took place after the ratification of the 14th Amendment. Among other things, the 14th Amendment states:

All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside. No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

Under the Constitution, citizenship and its protections begins at birth. The victim killed in the situation described was born, not unborn, and was protected under the Constitution.
...

That first section does not apply only to citizens but also to “any person.” While citizens have added benefits, all persons are to have “equal protection of the laws” especially regarding “life, liberty, or property.”

Many states legally recognize babies in the womb as persons when it comes to murder.

State Laws on Fetal Homicide and Penalty-enhancement for Crimes Against Pregnant Women

 

[canadyjd]

My gall bladder, my appendix, and a pituitary tumor were all part of my human life, yet they were removed. But they were not persons.

Comparing a baby to a tumor is another imprecise use of language that dehumanizes the baby helping supporters of baby murder to say “we don’t kill babies”

It it also disgusting, quite frankly, especially coming from a Christian

peace to you

 

[Yeshua1]

So you admit that it is not "a lie." That's good.


And how do you know this? DNA and the fossil record tells a different story.

I am saying that we are NOT affecting the earth cooling down or getting warmer, as those are natural cycles, and that evolution has NO scientific proof in regards to transistion between species, and how life originated here upon earth!

 

[Yeshua1]

Murder - the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another. One would have to believe the unborn life to be a human person.

Manslaughter - Manslaughter is an unlawful killing that doesn’t involve malice aforethought—intent to seriously harm or kill, or extreme, reckless disregard for life.

Not realizing that the unborn life is a human person would possibly be an example of manslaughter, at worst.


I don’t think I made any such claim.


That’s simply false. The issue is not language, but the question regarding when human personhood begins.

How does God view abortion is the ONLY question and answer to this issue!

 

[Yeshua1]

Which means he is pro-murder of babies.

Let’s be precise in our language. I’m certain God will be precise at the judgement.

peace to you

Thought that the final decision should be left up to God, the Creator?

 

[Yeshua1]

My gall bladder, my appendix, and a pituitary tumor were all part of my human life, yet they were removed. But they were not persons.

The new person in the womb has a soul from God!

 

[Baptist Believer]

That first section does not apply only to citizens but also to “any person.”

Actually, it applies to persons who are "born" or naturalized in the United States. This is about citizenship, and I referred to it in regard to the possibly apocryphal situation where a man was convicted for murder of an African-American, even though he did not consider the victim a person. At the insistence of another poster (Alcott), I cited the 14th Amendment, specifically written to ensure that all natural-born persons (including former slaves) held citizenship on a federal level, overruling any contrary laws at the state level.

In terms of protection of life, human persons within the United States have protections under US law, even if they are not citizens. That's why so many people are concerned about the welfare of refugees who have presented themselves at our border. Again, the primary question of the abortion issue is whether or not an unborn child (whether zygote, embryo, or fetus) has personhood.

Many states legally recognize babies in the womb as persons when it comes to murder.

State Laws on Fetal Homicide and Penalty-enhancement for Crimes Against Pregnant Women

Yes, state laws and Roe v. Wade are quite inconsistent.

 

[Baptist Believer]

Comparing a baby to a tumor...

No, I was pointing out the difference between "life" and "personhood." Parts of my body that bear the full range of my unique DNA are/were part of my living human body, but they are not persons.

...is another imprecise use of language...

No, I am being extremely precise. You simply misunderstand it. That's partly my fault and partly yours.

...that dehumanizes the baby helping supporters of baby murder to say “we don’t kill babies”

Since I didn't actually make that comparison, this charge is irrelevant.

It it also disgusting, quite frankly, especially coming from a Christian

It would be, if I had done so.

 

[Baptist Believer]

The new person in the womb has a soul from God!

"Has a soul"? Generally, the biblical perspective is either (1) one's body and spirit combined is a soul; or (2) the soul is the seat of rationality -- the seat of our will -- that is connected to our body (which includes emotions) and our spirit (what is made in the image of God).

Please explain your understand the nature of the soul in the womb, and when that is established.

 

[canadyjd]

No, I was pointing out the difference between "life" and "personhood." Parts of my body that bear the full range of my unique DNA are/were part of my living human body, but they are not persons.


No, I am being extremely precise. You simply misunderstand it. That's partly my fault and partly yours.


Since I didn't actually make that comparison, this charge is irrelevant.


It would be, if I had done so.

You are playing word games, just like the baby murders.

Your spit has your DNA. That doesn’t make spit a human life.

And you most certainly did compare a baby to a tumor while playing the word games like the baby murders do and it was disgustingly inappropriate.

If baby murders or their supporters see your post they will say, “see, a Christian uses the same language as we do. All those who disagree are right wing haters”

peace to you

 

[Yeshua1]

So what?

People convince themselves of all sorts of things. A man who turns away refugees, holds people who don't express enough honor to him with contempt, and advances an "America First" policy is not pro-life in a biblical sense.

There are a shocking number of "Christians" who believe Trump is a messiah. Does that make it true?

Nope.

Read the book of Jeremiah for a perspective on lying prophets.

Should a president not be America first? Should he or she not place own citizens before other nations? And when did Trump order any LEGAL aliens be turned away?

 

[Yeshua1]

"Has a soul"? Generally, the biblical perspective is either (1) one's body and spirit combined is a soul; or (2) the soul is the seat of rationality -- the seat of our will -- that is connected to our body (which includes emotions) and our spirit (what is made in the image of God).

Please explain your understand the nature of the soul in the womb, and when that is established.

The Baby is fully human while in the womb, does not become human when born, nor get the soul/spirit then!

 

[Yeshua1]

Actually, it applies to persons who are "born" or naturalized in the United States. This is about citizenship, and I referred to it in regard to the possibly apocryphal situation where a man was convicted for murder of an African-American, even though he did not consider the victim a person. At the insistence of another poster (Alcott), I cited the 14th Amendment, specifically written to ensure that all natural-born persons (including former slaves) held citizenship on a federal level, overruling any contrary laws at the state level.

In terms of protection of life, human persons within the United States have protections under US law, even if they are not citizens. That's why so many people are concerned about the welfare of refugees who have presented themselves at our border. Again, the primary question of the abortion issue is whether or not an unborn child (whether zygote, embryo, or fetus) has personhood.


Yes, state laws and Roe v. Wade are quite inconsistent.

Any difference to you in the status of illegal or legal alien?

 

[Alcott]

I assume the situation previously described took place after the ratification of the 14th Amendment. Among other things, the 14th Amendment states:

All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside. No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.​

Under the Constitution, citizenship and its protections begins at birth. The victim killed in the situation described was born, not unborn, and was protected under the Constitution.

Can unborn babies be "naturalized" in the USA? That might sound like a joke, but the definitions of naturalize are:

1: to confer the rights of a national on especially : to admit to citizenship
2 : to introduce into common use or into the vernacular
3 : to bring into conformity with nature
4 : to cause (something, such as a plant) to become established as if native
[ Definition of NATURALIZE ]

Laws don't necessarily make things right or wrong. They can sometimes be a guide to morality, but there are also unjust laws. However, morality and criminal prosecution are two different things. Lots of immoral things are not illegal.

If a baby is still inside the womb, how can it be homicide in any sense if it is not a human being? ... for in some cases it is a homicide. Does that depend on whether the perpetrator considers it a human or not? Or only that the mother retains the option of considering it legally a human or not? That obviously means an expectant mother can carry legality as well as a baby.

I post on this topic being one opposed to abortion, but without strong emotionalism, because I think the baby in question may be done quite a favor by being aborted and not having to endure this loathsome world. Indeed, if you let the baby be born, you are subjecting the baby to the possibility of infinite danger of damnation-- IF aborted babies have a place in the New Earth, or else they are nonexistent, which is infinitely better than damnation. I believe the former. But would a parent leave a baby in a room with an unsafe heater going? It would seem they would rather not take a chance, even if conditions outside that room are not ideal. And if coupled with one of those traditional Baptist doctrines-- "once saved always saved"-- which I can't say I agree with entirely, then a mother who aborts, or anyone who is an accomplice, who is saved cannot be damned for that act, either.

Abortion is not a simple subjec,t morally or legally.

 

[Baptist Believer]

You are playing word games, just like the baby murders.

No, I'm being precise. I am habitually precise about my language. That's one of the reasons people around here tend to think I am arrogant. They interpret precision as "word games."

Your spit has your DNA. That doesn’t make spit a human life.

True. So does my epidermis. But epidermis was once dermis - living skin.

And you most certainly did compare a baby to a tumor...

Only in an 'apple and oranges' type of comparison. You were supposed to find it absurd, but apparently you assume they are more similar than I do. That's a reflection of your viewpoint, not mine.

If baby murders or their supporters see your post they will say, “see, a Christian uses the same language as we do.

If a pro-choice person sees your rhetoric (for instance, the sentence quoted above), they will think that there is no rational opposition to abortion. It's all name-calling and venom. So you are perpetuating the problem.

All those who disagree are right wing haters”

I have to wonder.

I am pro-life, but the most vocal part of the pro-life movement does not seem to care about life. It seems to be a political movement to denigrate persons who are not in what passes for the Republican Party.

Do you ever speak one-on-one with a pro-choice person in a respectful way, explaining your concern for the unborn without using the term "baby murderer"?

I have a very long history of moving people to the pro-life cause (including against abortion) by demonstrating that I first respect the life of the one I am speaking with.

It's clear that many "pro-life" people here do not have even the concern to speak respectfully to a brother in Christ, much less an "enemy," in violation of Christ's command.

Unless you can do that, I have little respect for your position.