My dilemma

[OldRegular]

The "Baptist Confession of Faith" applies it to the RCC as does the "Westminster Confession of Faith"

Can you be more specific about what those Confessions state. I could not find any mention of Catholic!

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[Yeshua1]

You said "he is the god of the Church of Rome", in post #102.

Of course you probably don't think Jesus as presented in the Gospels is an example for us to follow.

And are you absolutely certain that the RCC is the great whore? What if you are wrong?

The papacy is Jesus "leading and directing" the doctrines and practices of the church of rome to them, and since the church of rome holds and treaches a false gospel, then?

 

[Yeshua1]

Can you be more specific about what those Confessions state. I could not find any mention of Catholic!

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Think he means it in the sense of the Universal church...

problem is that NO Confession/creed is ninding to a believer, as that is ONLY the bib le itself!

 

[BobRyan]

Can you be more specific about what those Confessions state. I could not find any mention of Catholic!

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Baptist Confession of Faith:


Chapter 26: Of the Church

1. The catholic or universal church, which (with respect to the internal work of the Spirit and truth of grace) may be called invisible, consists of the whole number of the elect, that have been, are, or shall be gathered into one, under Christ, the head thereof; and is the spouse, the body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.
( Hebrews 12:23; Colossians 1:18; Ephesians 1:10, 22, 23; Ephesians 5:23, 27, 32 )

2. All persons throughout the world, professing the faith of the gospel, and obedience unto God by Christ according unto it, not destroying their own profession by any errors everting the foundation, or unholiness of conversation, are and may be called visible saints; and of such ought all particular congregations to be constituted.
( 1 Corinthians 1:2; Acts 11:26; Romans 1:7; Ephesians 1:20-22 )

3. The purest churches under heaven are subject to mixture and error; and some have so degenerated as to become no churches of Christ, but synagogues of Satan; nevertheless Christ always hath had, and ever shall have a kingdom in this world, to the end thereof, of such as believe in him, and make profession of his name.
( 1 Corinthians 5; Revelation 2; Revelation 3; Revelation 18:2; 2 Thessalonians 2:11, 12; Matthew 16:18; Psalms 72:17; Psalm 102:28; Revelation 12:17 )

4. The Lord Jesus Christ is the Head of the church, in whom, by the appointment of the Father, all power for the calling, institution, order or government of the church, is invested in a supreme and sovereign manner; neither can the Pope of Rome in any sense be head thereof, but is that antichrist, that man of sin, and son of perdition, that exalteth himself in the church against Christ, and all that is called God; whom the Lord shall destroy with the brightness of his coming.
( Colossians 1:18; Matthew 28:18-20; Ephesians 4:11, 12; 2 Thessalonians 2:2-9 )

It is in section 26 for the BCoF

 

[OldRegular]

It is in section 26 for the BCoF

That Chapter 26 has nothing to say about the Roman Catholic Church!

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[McCree79]

That Chapter 26 has nothing to say about the Roman Catholic Church!

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I think he is referring to the London Baptist Confession of 1689. It refers to the pope in ch. 26 section 4

 

[OldRegular]

I think he is referring to the London Baptist Confession of 1689. It refers to the pope in ch. 26 section 4

Thanks! You are correct. I did a search for Roman but all references were to the Book of Romans. Did not think of doing a search for pope. The 1689 Baptist Confession borrows too much, in my opinion, from the Westminster Confession! Though I believe the Church of Rome is apostate I am not sure it is necessary for a Confession of Faith to try to identify the antichrist. John in his Epistles indicates there are many antichrists well before the pope existed.

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[McCree79]

Thanks! You are correct. I did a search for Roman but all references were to the Book of Romans. Did not think of doing a search for pope. The 1689 Baptist Confession borrows too much, in my opinion, from the Westminster Confession! Though I believe the Church of Rome is apostate I am not sure it is necessary for a Confession of Faith to try to identify the antichrist. John in his Epistles indicates there are many antichrists well before the pope existed.

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You are right. The LBCF is basically the Westminster.... Then it was tweaked to reflect Baptist believes.
As far was them targeting the pope....the Baptists....along with all Protestants, just had to deal with pope Benedict XIV claiming to be the infallible Vicar of Christ. The infallible leader of the true church. With the pope comparing himself so closely to Christ, a lot European Protestants felt very comfortable calling him a false Christ.

But like you....I probably would not have included that in a COF.

 

[McCree79]

I will add that Protestants weren't the only one who came to the conclusion.

Pope Gregory, who held office in 590 AD said, " I confidently affrim that whosoever calls himself universal bishop, or desires to be called by others is in his prides forerunner of Antichrist.

"The title*pope, once used with far greater latitude (see below,section V), is at present employed solely to denote theBishop*of*Rome, who, in virtue of his position as*successor*ofSt. Peter, is the chief*pastor*of the whole*Church, the*Vicar of Christ*upon earth."
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12260a.htm

It didn't take much for Protestants to reach the same conclusion that a previous pope warned about.

 

[BobRyan]

I was hoping that the text highlighted in red would be the giveaway.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Thanks! You are correct. I did a search for Roman but all references were to the Book of Romans. Did not think of doing a search for pope. The 1689 Baptist Confession borrows too much, in my opinion, from the Westminster Confession! Though I believe the Church of Rome is apostate I am not sure it is necessary for a Confession of Faith to try to identify the antichrist. John in his Epistles indicates there are many antichrists well before the pope existed.

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Both the Baptist BCoF and the Westminster WCoF make that same identification for the Pope.

So also Luther, Calvin, Wesley ... even the Popes themselves refer to fellow Popes as antichrist, BEFORE Luther did!!.


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Arnulf Bishop of Orleans (Roman Catholic)
"deplored the roman popes as "monsters of guilt" and declared in a council called by the King of France in 991ad that the pontiff, clad in purple and gold, was, "Antichrist, sitting in the temple of God, and showing himself as God" -Phillip Schaff, History of the Christian church, 8 vols., reprint of the 3d (1910)ed. (Grand Rapids Mich.: Wm. B Eerdmans Publishing Co., n.d.)

Eberhard II, archbishop of Salzburg (Roman Catholic)
"stated at a synod of bishops held at Regensburg in 1240 (some scholars say 1241) that the people of his day were "accustomed" to calling the pope antichrist." -LeRoy Edwin Froom, The Prophetic Faith of our Fathers, 4 vols. (Wash DC: Review and Herald publishing assc, 1950-1954)

John Wycliffe
"When the western church was divided for about 40 years between two rival popes, one in Rome and the other in Avigon, France, each pope called the other pope antichrist - and John Wycliffe is reputed to have regarded them as both being right: "two halves of Antichrist, making up the perfect Man of Sin between them." -Ibid

Martin Luther (Lutheran)
"We here are of the conviction that the papacy is the seat of the true and real Antichrist...personally I declare that I owe the Pope no other obedience than that to Antichrist." (Aug. 18, 1520) Taken from The Prophetic Faith of Our Fathers, Vol. 2., pg. 121 by Froom. (In response to a papal bull [official decree]): "I despise and attack it, as impious, false... It is Christ Himself who is condemned therein... I rejoice in having to bear such ills for the best of causes. Already I feel greater liberty in my heart; for at last I know that the pope is antichrist, and that his throne is that of Satan himself." --D'Aubigné, b.6, ch. 9.
Cotton Mather (Congregational Theologian)
"The oracles of God foretold the rising of an Antichrist in the Christian Church: and in the Pope of Rome, all the characteristics of that Antichrist are so marvelously answered that if any who read the Scriptures do not see it, there is a marvelous blindness upon them." Taken from The Fall of Babylon by Cotton Mather in Froom's book, The Prophetic Faith of Our Fathers, Vol. 3, pg. 113.

John Wesley (Methodist)
Speaking of the Papacy he said, "He is in an emphatical sense, the Man of Sin, as he increases all manner of sin above measure. And he is, too, properly styled the Son of Perdition, as he has caused the death of numberless multitudes, both of his opposers and followers... He it is...that exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped...claiming the highest power, and highest honour...claiming the prerogatives which belong to God alone." Taken from Antichrist and His Ten Kingdoms by John Wesley, pg. 110.

Ellen G. White: Seven Day Adventists
"This compromise between paganism and Christianity resulted in the development of "the man of sin" foretold in prophecy as opposing and exalting himself above God. That gigantic system of false religion is a masterpiece of Satan's power--a monument of his efforts to seat himself upon the throne to rule the earth according to his will.
Thomas Cranmer (Anglican)
"Whereof it followeth Rome to be the seat of antichrist, and the pope to be very antichrist himself. I could prove the same by many other scriptures, old writers, and strong reasons." (Referring to prophecies in Revelation and Daniel.) Taken from Works by Cranmer, Vol. 1, pp. 6-7. ​

Roger Williams (First Baptist Pastor in America)
He spoke of the Pope as "the pretended Vicar of Christ on earth, who sits as God over the Temple of God, exalting himself not only above all that is called God, but over the souls and consciences of all his vassals, yea over the Spirit of Christ, over the Holy Spirit, yea, and God himself...speaking against the God of heaven, thinking to change times and laws; but he is the son of perdition (II Thess. 2)." Taken from The Prophetic Faith of Our Fathers by Froom, Vol. 3, pg. 52.

1689 London Baptist Confession​

Chapter 26: Of the Church. The Lord Jesus Christ is the Head of the church, in whom, by the appointment of the Father, all power for the calling, institution, order or government of the church, is invested in a supreme and sovereign manner; neither can the Pope of Rome in any sense be head thereof, but is that antichrist, that man of sin, and son of perdition, that exalteth himself in the church against Christ, and all that is called God; whom the Lord shall destroy with the brightness of his coming. ( Colossians 1:18; Matthew 28:18-20; Ephesians 4:11, 12; 2 Thessalonians 2:2-9 ) ​

John Knox (Scotch Presbyterian)
Knox wrote to abolish "that tyranny which the pope himself has for so many ages exercised over the church" and that the pope should be recognized as "the very antichrist, and son of perdition, of whom Paul speaks." Taken from The Zurich Letters, pg. 199 by John Knox. ​

John Calvin (Presbyterian)
"Some persons think us too severe and censorious when we call the Roman pontiff Antichrist. But those who are of this opinion do not consider that they bring the same charge of presumption against Paul himself, after whom we speak and whose language we adopt... I shall briefly show that (Paul's words in II Thess. 2) are not capable of any other interpretation than that which applies them to the Papacy." Taken from Institutes by John Calvin.

Presbyterian Church (Year 2000)
The following Resolution was unanimously passed by the South Atlantic Presbytery of the Bible Presbyterian Church meeting in Charlotte, North Carolina, March 25, 2000.

http://www.remnantofgod.org/4fathers.htm
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[BobRyan]

My, how you twist things. It was you who said about the pope: "he is the god of the Church of Rome!" What good does that kind of hyperbole do? Much of what you say about the RCC I can agree with, but can we eliminate what are not facts, and can we eliminate the hatred? The system may be despicable, but there are still good people within it and people who are true Christians. I am passionately opposed to Roman Catholicism and Calvinism, but I don't think hate has a place. I might even hate the "systems" but not the people within them.

Enthusiastic name-calling does not mean anything to truth. IF the Pope is styled as "God on earth" or "Vicar of the Son of God" on earth - one who takes the place of God etc - then rather than accuse him of it - find the quotes from the sources - including Catholic sources themselves.

That way everyone benefits.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Protestant]

Thanks! You are correct. I did a search for Roman but all references were to the Book of Romans. Did not think of doing a search for pope. The 1689 Baptist Confession borrows too much, in my opinion, from the Westminster Confession! Though I believe the Church of Rome is apostate I am not sure it is necessary for a Confession of Faith to try to identify the antichrist. John in his Epistles indicates there are many antichrists well before the pope existed.

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OR,

Centuries before the Reformation Christians have recognized the Roman Catholic Church as Mystery Babylon, and the officeholder of the Papacy, Antichrist.

Below is an early example of such testimony.

The testimony of the Roman Catholic historian, Thuanus, concerning the hanging of alleged ‘Manichean’ heretics in Goslar, Germany in A.D. 1052:

Their points of doctrine were said to be these: That the Roman Church has forsaken the true Christian faith; that she is the Babylonian whore, and the dead tree which Christ cursed and commanded to be cut down; that therefore no obedience is to be rendered to the pope and the bishops who consent to his errors; that Monachism [i.e. the religious and work activities of a monk] is a veritable sink of all the corruption of the church, and an infernal pool; that all monastic vows are vain and unavailing, and tend only to lasciviousness; and that the orders of the priesthood are marks of the great beast [i.e. Antichrist], of which mention is made in the Apocalypse; that purgatory, the Mass, church consecration, the worship of saints, Masses for the dead, etc., are genuine inventions and institutions of Satan. (Cited in the Mennonite classic, Martyrs Mirror, pgs. 267-268.)

You will find numerous excerpts of similar testimonies through the ages here:

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=93591&highlight=Protestant

BTW, please note that the RCC consistently charged true Christians who dissented as ‘Manicheans.’ By so doing they claimed the right to persecute and kill them.

 

[OldRegular]

OR,

Centuries before the Reformation Christians have recognized the Roman Catholic Church as Mystery Babylon, and the officeholder of the Papacy, Antichrist.

Below is an early example of such testimony.

The testimony of the Roman Catholic historian, Thuanus, concerning the hanging of alleged ‘Manichean’ heretics in Goslar, Germany in A.D. 1052:



You will find numerous excerpts of similar testimonies through the ages here:

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=93591&highlight=Protestant

BTW, please note that the RCC consistently charged true Christians who dissented as ‘Manicheans.’ By so doing they claimed the right to persecute and kill them.

I don't doubt that throughout much of history the Church of Rome is representative of the apostate church or the Harlot, Babylon. Following are some remarks I wrote years ago when teaching the Book of Revelation:

Many in the Baptist and Protestant communities believe that the harlot represents Roman Catholicism. History shows that the Papacy dominated most of the western civilization from shortly after the fall of the Roman Empire until the Protestant reformation. It is true that as Roman Catholicism spread accommodations were made and pagan practices adopted. It is true that the gospel of grace was corrupted and remains corrupted within Roman Catholicism to this day. It is true that Roman Catholicism persecuted those Christians who dissented as severely, or more so, than the pagan Roman Empire persecuted the early Christians. It is true that the written Scriptures were denied those outside the priesthood on pain of death. It is true that some [William Tyndale] who translated the Scripture into languages other than Latin were burned [Foxe, page 133]. It is true that since 1870 the pope has claimed infallibility when speaking ex cathedra, that is, from the papal chair [Gregg, page 376; Gonzales, Volume 2, page 298]. It is true that both Vatican I, which authorized the infallibility of the pope when speaking ex cathedra, and Vatican II declared all outside the Roman Catholic communion anathema, or accursed [Hunt, page 111; page 363]. The Roman Catholic [and Eastern Orthodox] bodies continue to propagate ‘another gospel’, a gospel that denies salvation by grace, through faith, alone. Throughout history the Roman Catholic organization has been able to adapt itself to the prevailing world view or to incorporate those world views that would advance its goal of world domination. That has not changed.

Nothing in the above remarks should be interpreted as judging the salvation of individuals within the Roman Catholic or Orthodox bodies. God in His mercy is able to save many inside those institutions in spite of their error. Also nothing in the above remarks should be interpreted as limiting the harlot, the apostate church, only to the Roman Catholic and Orthodox communions. A study of Church History will show that many apostate bodies do and have existed.

That being said I do not believe that the Church of Rome alone will be the sum total of the final manifestation of the Harlot Babylon! Following are some additional thoughts on the final manifestation of the Harlot, the apostate church, Babylon.

Only God knows the final manifestation of the Harlot. During the 19th Century a number of heretical “Christian” groups emerged. Dominant among these were:

The Jehovah Witnesses who deny the diety of Jesus Christ,

The Mormons, a polytheistic religion, teaching a salvation by works, that man can become a God, and passing itself off as the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints,

Christian Science, the creation of a woman named Mary Baker [Eddy], denies the existence of the physical universe, denies the personhood of God, and denies the atonement or the necessity of the atonement.​

In the late 20th Century, a very troubling heresy gained wide acceptance within a certain religious communuty in the United States, the Word of Faith movement. That heresy is one of the dominant heresies of the current age and in some respects exceeds the heretical teachings of other groups.

Having noted the historical and current manifestations of apostasy we must take a broader view of the apostate church, counterfeit Christianity, particularly as it exists today. In recent years we have seen three teachings or trends within the ‘mainline churches’ which are completely at odds with the teaching of Holy Scripture regarding a true church.

The first is the rejection of the Scriptural teaching that Jesus Christ is the only means of reconciling man to God. That salvation is through Jesus Christ alone has been discussed as the mark of a true church.

The second is an increasingly militant movement among homosexuals and the acceptance by some ‘mainline churches’ of homosexuality as an acceptable lifestyle including the ascendancy of practicing homoexuals to positions of leadership within these ‘churches’.

The third, and perhaps closely related to the second, is an increasingly militant movement among certain feminist groups to place women in positions of authority in the churches. Women are increasingly assuming the pulpit in many ‘mainline’ Protestant churches and to a lesser degree in Baptist churches. [Both the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox churches have refused to admit women to the priesthood; notwithstanding their heretical worship of Mary, the mother of Jesus Christ, as the Mother of God.] This movement has progressed to the point that these militant feminists are denying the Scriptural revelation of the masculine gender of God, insisting that God consists of both genders or is feminine. The influence of these feminist groups, with the spineless acquiescence of some denominational leaders, is such that some recent versions of the ‘Bible’ are gender neutral.​

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[Protestant]

I don't doubt that throughout much of history the Church of Rome is representative of the apostate church or the Harlot, Babylon.

Thanks, brother, for sharing your views.

No doubt the cults you mentioned are antichrist.

However, none are guilty of drinking the blood of the saints; i.e., murdering true Christians.

Furthermore, Mystery Babylon has Rome as its ruling capital/seat.

These two prophecies alone point to the RCC as the Mother of all Harlots, Mystery Babylon.

Our Christian brothers of long ago have written innumerable dissertations proving why the RCC is the fulfillment of Mystery Babylon, her Papal head, the Antichrist.

The Jesuits invented Futurism and Preterism to misdirect the damning prophecies away from the RCC and Papacy.

This is historical fact.

 

[Darrell C]

I'm a man in his early thirties. I come from a part of the world that has been secularized very aggressively and where traditionally everyone is a Catholic. We have some baptist and pentecoastal churches, but they are marginal and tend to be picked by people who acquire different convictions, not by people who frequent them since their childhood because their parents brought them there. They are seen almost as sects, little different for instance than Jehovah's Witnesses.

I have always believed, though I stopped going to church when my mother stopped bringing me to it more than 20 years ago. I went to a catholic private high school, but once I left high school I stopped having access to a Christian environment.

I didn't go to a catholic church, because I didn't felt at ease there. However I recently realized that the Bible commands us not to forsake the fellowship with others in a church, so I realized I must change that attitude. Also in this very secular society I feel very isolated, I see no one who shares my belief. I am rather dismayed at all this modernism and decadent behavior which is not in tune with me.

I ended up wondering if I would feel more at ease in an evangelical church. I went to see the pastor of a Baptist church who welcomed me in. We had a discussion about the faith, and of course about salvation through faith alone, which is the most important tenet of protestant denominations and which I had slowly started to lean toward in the last few years. So we got along well and I agreed with most of what he said to me.

When it came to the requirement for adult baptism however that is where I started to feel very bad. I shared these feelings with him, and he gave me a book to read explaining why it is justified. I found myself agreeing with much of what was written in the book.

However I still feel really bad and traitorous with establishing links and frequenting a protestant church. I don't know what to do with this, I feel like an outsider and like someone who doesn't belong.

I think I am getting in on this late but will just share a few thoughts.

First, it is normal to feel like an outsider any time you begin something new, whether it is joining a faith that is different than what you are used to or even just joining a new fellowship of the same faith, so I would not over-worry this issue. It will pass. for now keep in mind that you are being moved to fellowship, and this I am sure is the Lord moving you, so keep your fellowship's focus on worship, that should be your primary reason for attending any House of God. It's not up to you to ensure those you fellowship with are correct in everything they do and teach. Doesn't matter what fellowship you go to, someone is going to be wrong about something, lol.

Secondly, don't over-worry your understanding of God and His Word. This too will change as you grow in knowledge. I would recommend fervent study and to continue meeting with others that are interested in learning more, just as you are doing by coming to a doctrinal discussion forum. This is a great way for accelerated learning, one of the best, I believe.

In regards to baptism, I would suggest a focused study on this. My view is that Christian Baptism doesn't save, however, it is commanded and it is generally viewed as a public profession of faith. I think it meant more in the culture of the early Church, where public profession could have dramatic impact on one's life. That doesn't mean public profession today means nothing, though.

In regards to the Catholic/Baptist antagonism, keep in mind that Catholicism was the mainstream faith for many years (and still very large), and we would not expect the Lord to exclude people from salvation due to their denomination, lol. Catholics are no different, practically speaking, that is, from any other group: there are those that are faithful, and there are those that are religious only. The same is true of Baptists. In both groups you will have those more fervent in study, and those who are satisfied with what they learn from their leadership.

The question does not center on their worship, but on yours. You could attend either group and be saved, or lost.

So, simply set your sights on those things you feel you are being moved of God concerning, such as rejoining fellowship with other believers and learning more about the Lord. As you grow, you will come to better understand the things that might be troubling or confusing.

Three things I suggest: study, study, study, lol. For me, time in the Word and speaking with others about the Lord is when I feel closest to Him. Good luck in your journey.

God bless.

 

[Yeshua1]

Also, remember that Church of rome is same as ANY religion outside of true christianity, as they have a false gospel that saves none!