My Favorite Hymn

[TCassidy]

To "quicken" means to "make alive." In other words, regeneration. Born again. Born from above.

 

[HeirofSalvation]

This is cute..........

Is it just me, or are Calvinists appealing to the Wesley's to support their Philosophy.

Just enjoy the hymn.....and move along.......It's a HYMN people...a HYMN!!!

 

[jonathan.borland]

To "quicken" means to "make alive." In other words, regeneration. Born again. Born from above.

I agree. However, quicken can also mean to stimulate. It was just a ray. The flaming dungeon is the regeneration in my interpretation, and, I think, in Wesley's.

 

[jonathan.borland]

Jonathan.......One of my Favourites too!!!!!
My other favorites are equally as beloved:
1.) There is a Fountain (William Cowper)
2.) Grace Greater than our Sin (by Johnston)
and
3.) Isaac Waats's "Alas and did my Saviour Bleed" <----------The verbiage of this song is usually bastardized in most hymnals and it sends me into a dimmension of rage I care not to discuss........Waats was so much more poetic, and dare I say Accurate...when he rendered it this way:

"Could he devote that sacred head for such a worm as I"

In most Trash hymnals today, it has this powerless and generic rendering:

Could he devote that sacred head for "sinners such as I"

Not only is that modern rendering less poetic, un-creative, wholly unnecessarry, but it actually shifts the subject of the statement.........It shifts focus from ONE INDIVIDUAL'S awareness of their own sinfullness to a generic plurality.......it isn't even accurate. I want to find the heathen who foisted this Devillish re-invention and tell him how I really feel about him, and his entire life of destroying the holy works of men 100 times better than either he or I can ever hope to be.

I think I'll go point out the numerous errors Beethoven included in his ninth Symphony shall I????
How arrogant can one be to think they are bright enough to improve on a hymn the likes of which, this editor couldn't copy in a million years???
I wouldn't spend a plug nickel on any hymnal which alters verbiage in that way. In fact, I would pay to burn it for someone.

Now that that's off my chest.......GREAT HYMN Jonathan I LOVE that one!!:jesus:

Hey HOS,

I love the three you mention above. I will try to post the "original" words at some point. Great, great hymns!

 

[TCassidy]

Ephesians 2:1: And you has he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; KJV

Ephesians 2:1 And you did he make alive, when ye were dead through your trespasses and sins, ASV

 

[TCassidy]

This is cute..........

Is it just me, or are Calvinists appealing to the Wesley's to support their Philosophy.

Just enjoy the hymn.....and move along.......It's a HYMN people...a HYMN!!!

No, we are pointing out that Charles Wesley's doctrine was much more biblical than John Wesley's.

 

[TCassidy]

"Could he devote that sacred head for such a worm as I"

In most Trash hymnals today, it has this powerless and generic rendering:

Could he devote that sacred head for "sinners such as I"

I was preaching in a church many, many years ago and when the congregation sang that song with the words changed I leaned over and said to the pastor, "You changed the words!" He answered "Yes, we are sinners but not the wormy kind."

I changed my text on the spot to Proverbs 16:18 "Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall."

I don't think they got the message.

 

[Iconoclast]

Yes, this is what makes the song so good, since both sides can "claim" it as their own. Same as the Baptist Faith and Message document.

I think that stanza encapsulates salvation with brief but powerful strokes of the pen. Besides, I think everyone here would agree that God first comes to man and convicts him of his sin and need for salvation. I would call this the "quickening ray." Then waking up would be the positive and repentant response to the quickening ray. Then the flaming light would be, of course, the regenerating of our souls HALLELUJAH!

or it would be this:

2 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

God does the quickening...man does not quicken himself....Like lazarus being quickened in Jn 11....God did it, than Lazarus came out...

JB

if you are in the grave before the last day....are you going to "quicken your dead body, or must God give you a new body?

A soldier blown up by a bomb in war time...does he create His own body, then God quickens it later...or does God do it??? just saying:laugh:

 

[jonathan.borland]

I believe 100% that God does all the quickening!

Okay, here's my own little illustration from my interpretation of stanza 4 of How Can It Be. The quickening ray is the Holy Spirit's coming and convicting and prodding and stimulating the imprisoned and asleep prisoner. Some rustle a bit and open their eyes and become awake, signifying their positive response to the Holy Spirit's piercing call for repentance and belief. Some just roll over and reject the quickening ray. Once one awakens his dungeon bursts forth with flaming fire and hallelujah he is born again and his chains fall off and his soul is free! Notice that regeneration comes after one responds to the quickening ray by opening his eyes and becoming awake.

And yes, I anticipate the objection (imitate high-pitched nasally and whiny voice): "But your illustration is heretical since we're not really sleeping but actually totally dead." "Well," (imitate the legendary booming voice of George Whitefield), "let's not underestimate the power of that 'quickening ray' of the Holy Spirit and that light from King Jesus who has enlightened EVERY MAN that cometh into the world."

And on a side note...I hope everyone here is not offended by the debates that can get heated at times. Let's all remember that we're good Baptists, and I never knew a good Baptist who could turn and run from a good fight. Anyway, we all love each other and I feel it all the time around here.

One more note to brother Iconoclast. I often chuckle whenever I think of you because for some reason I always think of you telling some poster one day something like....."Whoa, ease up Rambo, try some decaf for a change." He didn't like it too much at the time but replaying that episode in my mind brings inner laughter every time. I hope if I say things that sound mean-spirited you will assume the best but call me out whenever you think I cross the line with you or others. Thanks!

 

[TCassidy]

"Well," (imitate the legendary booming voice of George Whitefield), "let's not underestimate the power of that 'quickening ray' of the Holy Spirit and that light from King Jesus who has enlightened EVERY MAN that cometh into the world."

Enlightened, yes. The rains fall on the just and the unjust. Regenerated, no.

 

[ktn4eg]

Good one! Thanks for posting this!

One of the reasons I posted this as my favorite HYMN [not saying that I don't like SOME CCM P&W music, BTW] is that its theology is pretty well self-explanatory, i.e., "If you have to ask........."

(NOTE: I'm sure there are some folks out there in BB land who seem to feel that the HS's calling for their lives is solely to sit back & parse every single word that appears in every single post of every single thread of every single BB forum who will find some kind of fault with some parts of this particular hymn.

To them I merely say, "Don't you have any better things to do than to spend your time this way?")

 

[TCassidy]

To them I merely say, "Don't you have any better things to do than to spend your time this way?")

If you don't like what others write, feel free to not read it.

 

[ktn4eg]

If you don't like what others write, feel free to not read it.

...........Just how does one who lacks the power of omniscience (like me!) go about determining whether one does not like what others write with out having first reading what others write? :BangHead:

 

[TCassidy]

...........Just how does one who lacks the power of omniscience (like me!) go about determining whether one does not like what others write with out having first reading what others write? :BangHead:

Just put me on "ignore." All your problems will be solved. You will never have to read my posts and be forced to think for yourself again.

 

[ktn4eg]

Just put me on "ignore." All your problems will be solved. You will never have to read my posts and be forced to think for yourself again.

Thank you for very your kind and thoughtful advice to this computer-illiterate, very physically- and mentally-disabled, almost 70-YO retired lay person who never spent even a micro-second in any seminary about using the "ignore" feature with regard to your posts.

Upon your compassionate advice I shall now grant your wish to have me "ignore" you.

(NOTE: I also wish to thank you for your commentary on my mental capabilites as well.
..........All done in the spirit of Eph. 4:32.)

 

[TCassidy]

Thank you for very your kind and thoughtful advice to this computer-illiterate, very physically- and mentally-disabled, almost 70-YO retired lay person who never spent even a micro-second in any seminary about using the "ignore" feature with regard to your posts.

Well, I won't say I feel sorry for you, you seem to being doing that without my help.

I am about your age (I'm older than Dr. Bob), and severely disabled. I have an auto-immune condition that is very similar to Multiple Sclerosis. I have lost the feeling in my arms and legs, and I am slowly losing muscle control also. The demyelination of my neural tissue has resulted in damage to the nerves that control my heart beat and I go into cardiac arrhythmia several times every day. The condition also affects my optic nerve so I am slowly going blind. My doctor told me that I would eventually be confined to a wheel chair and be totally blind. She then told me there was some good news. She said my heart condition would kill me long before the other things happened.

So, lighten up. Don't be so judgmental of those who post things you have not pre-approved. That's what makes this forum unique. Censorship is the death knell of such discussions. Try to allow others to exercise their Christian liberty.

 

[12strings]

This is cute..........

Is it just me, or are Calvinists appealing to the Wesley's to support their Philosophy.

Just enjoy the hymn.....and move along.......It's a HYMN people...a HYMN!!!

I agree...TCassidy should go read the other thread on Charles Wesley's other hymn if he thinks Charles had some deep-seated agreement with calvinism that John didn't have...

 

[TCassidy]

I agree...TCassidy should go read the other thread on Charles Wesley's other hymn if he thinks Charles had some deep-seated agreement with calvinism that John didn't have...

Perhaps it is you who should read the other thread. mont974x4 answered it quite well.

 

[12strings]

Perhaps it is you who should read the other thread. mont974x4 answered it quite well.

I did, and Mont pointed out some some deficiencies in the hymn...I'm simply saying I don't see how Charles Wesley's was any "better" than John's...I though they were pretty similar.

 

[Jerome]

From another thread:

John was an Arminian, but Charles was a Calvinist. That is clear from the words of the many wonderful songs he wrote. Especially "And Can it Be."

I heard this claim (along with a bunch of other claptrap) from a 'Reformed' Baptist pastor years ago.