My Journey Into The Catholic Church

[Baptist4life]

If catholics go on and on about the "bread and wine" Walter, how come the parishioners don't get a drink of the wine? After all the Last Supper, where you believe the eucharist was born, Jesus commanded you to eat the bread AND drink the cup. Every catholic mass I've been to, and that's quite a few, the parishioners only ate the bread, never did they drink any wine. Seems like you're only getting half of it.

 

[Walter]

If catholics go on and on about the "bread and wine" Walter, how come the parishioners don't get a drink of the wine? After all the Last Supper, where you believe the eucharist was born, Jesus commanded you to eat the bread AND drink the cup. Every catholic mass I've been to, and that's quite a few, the parishioners only ate the bread, never did they drink any wine. Seems like you're only getting half of it.

This is a good question. One that I don't feel I fully understand and don't want to mis-represent Church teaching by attempting to do so. However, I will say that in my parish Holy Communion is offered under both species (bread & wine). Some people only receive the host and I have even seen some people only receive the cup (thinking it's a gluten-free issue?) and I was told in RCIA that receiving either is considered a full communion. To me, receiving the Lord Jesus in either form is an incredible treasure and my best guess is the Church views receiving the host or the cup as fully receiving both His body and blood. Maybe one of the other two Catholics on this board could answer better. I understand that Anglicans also teach that a full communion does not require a person to receive under both species.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

This is a good question. One that I don't feel I fully understand and don't want to mis-represent Church teaching by attempting to do so. However, I will say that in my parish Holy Communion is offered under both species (bread & wine). Some people only receive the host and I have even seen some people only receive the cup (thinking it's a gluten-free issue?) and I was told in RCIA that receiving either is considered a full communion. To me, receiving the Lord Jesus in either form is an incredible treasure and I my best guess is the Church views receiving the host or the cup as fully receiving both His body and blood. Maybe one of the other two Catholics on this board could answer better. I understand that Anglicans also teach that a full communion does not require a person to receive under both species.

Gentlemen, there are certain services at certain RC Churches that they do provide wine....why it's not done continually I dont know. Personally B4L asks a good question, if they stress the actual transfer of the body & blood for consumption why not make the wine/blood available with the bread/body?

 

[Gregory Perry Sr.]

Thanks

Better than "Fox's Book of Martyrs", look into "Martyrs' Mirror", an account of the murder of mostly Anabaptists by state churches.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martyrs_Mirror

http://www.homecomers.org/mirror/contents.htm

Thanks TH...I'll look into those links.I bookmarked them.

Bro.Greg

 

[Gregory Perry Sr.]

Don't Think I could Have Said It Better!

Walter, this is what I want to say to you. It is my hope that threads here on the BB were not instrumental in your decision. First of all, I want to say I am as guilty as anyone. Some of the threads about the RCC turned out like the Calvin-free will threads, no light, only discord. I was taught as Presbyterian, and now a Baptist for many years, as to why we should shun Catholics. This is where most of our information comes from. I doubt ten percent on this board have read the actual RCC documents on doctrine.

You speak of certainty. I can see where you would think from this board there is no common belief system. We have pastors who have been to seminary, have doctorates, and lead local churches arguing amongst themselves. This is especially true of Calvinism, KJVO, covenant theology, etc, and we are all over the map. It is my hope that one day Calvinism threads are banned. (and free will)

One of the most outrageous things is the belief that all Catholics are lost. That is about the stupidest thing I have heard here. I know many Baptists are lost, just from observation.

I am not going to judge or praise your decision, but hope the Lord guides you where you can be used by Him. I also want to apologize if any of my negative posts influenced you. All I can say, speaking for myself, it that I think the Baptist faith comes as close to a Biblical NT church as exists today, or I would not be one. Worshipping saints, Mary, going to priests to confess sins, regenerative baptism, transsubstitution, etc, are all things among many others that I do not agree with in the RCC, but then again, I have not directly read their documents.

God bless you and your family as He leads you.

Walter ( and Saturneptune) , I think I'll "cast in my lot" with SN on this one. He said, point for point what I have been thinking more and more as this thread has progressed. I am praying for you that God will give you the wisdom and leadership to make the decisions you need to make in a way that honors and glorifies HIM....and HIM ONLY! I myself can't agree with most of the things I know about Catholicism but I mean you no disrespect or ill-will either. I do believe as well that there will be some Catholics that will make it to heaven just as there will be those from ALL denominations (particularly including Baptists) that think they'll make it who won't! I think the KEY to ALL OF US making the right choices about these kind of matters comes in putting our Lord FIRST in all we say, think or do. If we seek to do only those things that honor HIM and not ourselves I just can't help but believe our that "path" may still be narrow (because the Word of God says so) but it won't be near as crooked! I pray God will give you the grace and the light that you and your family need. May God Bless You.

Bro.Greg:saint:

 

[Matt Black]

Matt,

your misinterpreting my question here. I dont really give a fig about the C vs A thing that obsesses so many & I aint trying to draw you into it. If Christ died for you then should have experiences being born from above by this point right? Or is that whats missing? True conversion!!!

If you're asking whether I've ever undergone an 'evangelical-style conversion' then the answer is yes. It was May 9th, 1986, I was sweet sixteen and this evangelist came to the Christian Union at our school and preached the Gospel. It all made sense but was also for me building on the foundation laid by my much earlier Catholic upbringing. Anyway, I had no hesitation in committing my life wholeheartedly to the Lord Jesus, believing He died on the Cross for my sins so that I may be forgiven and have eternal life in Him. I still believe that now, but I am also left with the nagging question "Is that it?", or, as Bro James might say, "Now what?". Where's the "being Holy as I Am Holy" (taken from today's lectionary reading, Lev 19: 1-2) bit? It's all very well - and I thank and praise God for it daily - being forensically justified in Christ thanks to faith in Him and His atoning sacrifice but that seems very theoretical to me, speaking more of the life to come than the life down here; "pie in the sky when you die" is great, but I'd also like some "steak on the plate while I wait", and evangelicalism just doesn't cut the mustard (pun intended!) on that front for me.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

If you're asking whether I've ever undergone an 'evangelical-style conversion' then the answer is yes. It was May 9th, 1986, I was sweet sixteen and this evangelist came to the Christian Union at our school and preached the Gospel. It all made sense but was also for me building on the foundation laid by my much earlier Catholic upbringing. Anyway, I had no hesitation in committing my life wholeheartedly to the Lord Jesus, believing He died on the Cross for my sins so that I may be forgiven and have eternal life in Him. I still believe that now, but I am also left with the nagging question "Is that it?", or, as Bro James might say, "Now what?". Where's the "being Holy as I Am Holy" (taken from today's lectionary reading, Lev 19: 1-2) bit? It's all very well - and I thank and praise God for it daily - being forensically justified in Christ thanks to faith in Him and His atoning sacrifice but that seems very theoretical to me, speaking more of the life to come than the life down here; "pie in the sky when you die" is great, but I'd also like some "steak on the plate while I wait", and evangelicalism just doesn't cut the mustard (pun intended!) on that front for me.

Thats why Ive rejected most of the modern Churches today in favor of the radical church that looks for meaning of life on this side of death. I have said this before & I will say this again, "God is not calling us into our heads." Yet we have lived in our heads for so long that the world no longer listens to us. You want to know why Puffs are marrying Puffs today in the UK? Look to your church as the problem & not the solution.

If you want the Promise of Christ in your own life & your wife & families life..... & you want it abundantly, go out there & help somebody. See the face of Christ in someone else & touch the flesh & believe. That is what your hungering for.

Look, there is an American Preacher & missionary named Paul Washer......google him & listen to a sermon or two of his. He will hit these lazy arsed dead churches with a freaken baseball bat & I love it. Brother, the world does not need to believe our dogmas & lazy churches.....but it will believe in Christs love. It will believe life that is given & received. And thats where you gotta go.

 

[Matt Black]

But I don't just want rhetoric about holy living but actual help to move towards achieving it. ISTM one source of such help is the sacraments

 

[Bro. James]

If one is looking for a rose garden in this world, there are none for the righteous.

"All those who live godly in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution." We have not a clue about what that might mean.

"If our only hope in Jesus is in this world, we are of all men most miserable." This world is going to melt with fervent asteroids.

Pick up your cross, Jesus will bear it for you.

Why did Moses give up Egypt for the shame of Christ?

Even so, come Lord Jesus,

Bro. James

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

But I don't just want rhetoric about holy living but actual help to move towards achieving it. ISTM one source of such help is the sacraments

Right....you think what missionaries do is rhetoric? Really!!!! Thats laughable.

now if your saying that stepping thru sacraments as a means of forcing you to do what the Lord told you to do as a disciple, I got a problem with that.

When you get a free hour...... try viewing this guys sermon.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uuabITeO4l8

 

[Matt Black]

Not forcing. Helping

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Not forcing. Helping

If that were true Matt then Roman Catholicism would be the one true religion......and we both know thats not true.

Try listening to Paul Washer sermon I attached above.....when you have time.

 

[DHK]

Gentlemen, there are certain services at certain RC Churches that they do provide wine....why it's not done continually I dont know. Personally B4L asks a good question, if they stress the actual transfer of the body & blood for consumption why not make the wine/blood available with the bread/body?

In all my years as a former Catholic I have never seen the cup offered to any parishoner. It was the privilege of the priest only, who took the cup, blessed it, and then drank of it before all. He was the only one to have that privilege. But that was decades ago when the RCC masses were all in Latin. Since then the only contact I have had with the RCC is when someone very close has died and unfortunately the funeral had to be held in conjunction with the RCC, and a mass said. But the congregants there were never able to drink of the wine either, though they did eat of the bread. I have never seen it happen.

After I went to the mission field I was in a church (evangelical) when they were celebrating the Lord's Supper. There were sixty or more present. First the bread was passed around. Then the "Cup" was passed around. I was sitting near the back. A person near me was coughing up a storm. Others were sick. They all "drank of that same cup." I refrained.

If, in the RCC, the "Cup" is blessed and then passed, and all drink out of that same cup, how many of the congregation may have AIDS, Hep.C, and so many other diseases that can easily be transferred by all "drinking from one cup." Such diseases were not so prevalent when our Lord was present. And I am willing to guess that their immune systems were a lot stronger then than the average person has today.

I have never seen a Catholic Church equipped to have small communion cups such as most evangelical churches have. Nor could I ever picture a Catholic Church doing that. "They eat of the same bread" (given by the priest), and "drink of the same cup" (given by the priest), if they were to do it at all.

 

[Walter]

In all my years as a former Catholic I have never seen the cup offered to any parishoner. It was the privilege of the priest only, who took the cup, blessed it, and then drank of it before all. He was the only one to have that privilege. But that was decades ago when the RCC masses were all in Latin. Since then the only contact I have had with the RCC is when someone very close has died and unfortunately the funeral had to be held in conjunction with the RCC, and a mass said. But the congregants there were never able to drink of the wine either, though they did eat of the bread. I have never seen it happen.

After I went to the mission field I was in a church (evangelical) when they were celebrating the Lord's Supper. There were sixty or more present. First the bread was passed around. Then the "Cup" was passed around. I was sitting near the back. A person near me was coughing up a storm. Others were sick. They all "drank of that same cup." I refrained.

If, in the RCC, the "Cup" is blessed and then passed, and all drink out of that same cup, how many of the congregation may have AIDS, Hep.C, and so many other diseases that can easily be transferred by all "drinking from one cup." Such diseases were not so prevalent when our Lord was present. And I am willing to guess that their immune systems were a lot stronger then than the average person has today.

I have never seen a Catholic Church equipped to have small communion cups such as most evangelical churches have. Nor could I ever picture a Catholic Church doing that. "They eat of the same bread" (given by the priest), and "drink of the same cup" (given by the priest), if they were to do it at all.

You were probably wise not to partake of that particular common cup. I can say that my parish offers several chalices to the laity during mass EXCEPT during flu season when the bishop prohibits any parish from offering a common cup.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

In all my years as a former Catholic I have never seen the cup offered to any parishoner. It was the privilege of the priest only, who took the cup, blessed it, and then drank of it before all. He was the only one to have that privilege. But that was decades ago when the RCC masses were all in Latin. Since then the only contact I have had with the RCC is when someone very close has died and unfortunately the funeral had to be held in conjunction with the RCC, and a mass said. But the congregants there were never able to drink of the wine either, though they did eat of the bread. I have never seen it happen.

After I went to the mission field I was in a church (evangelical) when they were celebrating the Lord's Supper. There were sixty or more present. First the bread was passed around. Then the "Cup" was passed around. I was sitting near the back. A person near me was coughing up a storm. Others were sick. They all "drank of that same cup." I refrained.

If, in the RCC, the "Cup" is blessed and then passed, and all drink out of that same cup, how many of the congregation may have AIDS, Hep.C, and so many other diseases that can easily be transferred by all "drinking from one cup." Such diseases were not so prevalent when our Lord was present. And I am willing to guess that their immune systems were a lot stronger then than the average person has today.

I have never seen a Catholic Church equipped to have small communion cups such as most evangelical churches have. Nor could I ever picture a Catholic Church doing that. "They eat of the same bread" (given by the priest), and "drink of the same cup" (given by the priest), if they were to do it at all.

Like you, I do not go to RC Services often....I think if memory served that it was an active Franciscan church in Paterson NJ where the Priests/ friars/monks still wore their brown hooded garb & they used plain glass vs gold chalices but that was 21 years ago. I do know that Lutherans go both ways(LOL) providing both but I can just only remember ...oh the other was a funeral mass for my cousin Michael 4 years ago now & it surprised me that they would serve the wine.....I didnt participate however.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

You were probably wise not to partake of that particular common cup. I can say that my parish offers several chalices to the laity during mass EXCEPT during flu season when the bishop prohibits any parish from offering a common cup.

Easily rectified by a series of thimble plastic cups (throw away)

 

[DHK]

Easily rectified by a series of thimble plastic cups (throw away)

We eventually were able to teach them that on the mission field. Throw away cups were not always available (in fact rarely available), but there were other options, so that each one could have their own cup and avoid passing on someone else's germs.
Let everything be done decently and in order.
Never had to cancel the Lord's Table or refrain from it again.
Education is a marvelous tool.

 

[Gregory Perry Sr.]

I LOVE Your Imagery

speaking more of the life to come than the life down here; "pie in the sky when you die" is great, but I'd also like some "steak on the plate while I wait", and evangelicalism just doesn't cut the mustard (pun intended!) on that front for me.

Matt...I think what you are saying is...."OK...I'm saved now...so bring on the "abundant living"...yes? Let us be FILLED with the Spirit and walk in His power.:thumbsup:

Amen to that...and I love your use and choice of metaphors! I'm a "steak and potatoes" kinda guy!

Bro.Greg:saint:

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Matt...I think what you are saying is...."OK...I'm saved now...so bring on the "abundant living"...yes? Let us be FILLED with the Spirit and walk in His power.:thumbsup:

Amen to that...and I love your use and choice of metaphors! I'm a "steak and potatoes" kinda guy!

Bro.Greg:saint:

Better be careful....Ive read horse meat has been being served instead of beef....so if you feel like taking a drive to the track after dinner, put $2.00 on Midnight Jasmine to WIN in the 6th race.:smilewinkgrin:

 

[Gregory Perry Sr.]

Recommended Reading!

But I don't just want rhetoric about holy living but actual help to move towards achieving it. ISTM one source of such help is the sacraments

Matt...to help in your Quest...along with an open tear-stained Bible (preferably a KJV) I recommend ANYTHING by the late Missionary Alliance preacher A.W.Tozer, Dwight Pentecost's "Designed To Be Like Him", ANYTHING by Andrew Murray, a book by the late F.J.Huegel - "Bone of His Bone"(may be out of print),and lastly (though there are many other good ones) any of the works by an Author I know personally (he led me to faith in Christ back in 1977) by the name of Jim Berg (look him up on Amazon). I highly recommend his book "Changed Into His Image". Anyway..God Bless you brother. I too want that abundant life of Christ while I'm still here so I can be a fruitful son for my Lord. Maybe then the shock of the transfer from this life into the next one won't have to be as "abrupt" as I fear it may be. We will face the Judgment Seat Of Christ. I pray my "fruit" won't just be wood,hay,and stuble and be fodder for the fire.

Bro.Gregraying::saint: