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My Journey Into The Catholic Church

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Matt Black

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Er...not quite. The will and grace of God are paramount in RC soteriology, not the will of man. Justification for RCs is by Christ, in Christ and by grace, faith and Godly works being the products of that grace when not resisted by man. Neither the faith nor the works are strictly speaking the results of man's efforts but rather the results of the Holy Spirit working through man. It's all God, God and God and not man. This is not mere semantics but a very real distinction between what you have said and the theological reality as taught by the RCC.

ETA - thanks to Greg Perry for his good wishes which are reciprocated!
 

Earth Wind and Fire

Well-Known Member
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Er...not quite. The will and grace of God are paramount in RC soteriology, not the will of man. Justification for RCs is by Christ, in Christ and by grace, faith and Godly works being the products of that grace when not resisted by man. Neither the faith nor the works are strictly speaking the results of man's efforts but rather the results of the Holy Spirit working through man. It's all God, God and God and not man. This is not mere semantics but a very real distinction between what you have said and the theological reality as taught by the RCC.

ETA - thanks to Greg Perry for his good wishes which are reciprocated!

In realty...spoken like a true Roman Catholic. Congratulation, your out of the closet :smilewinkgrin:
 

Melanie

Active Member
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I always thought Matt was high church of England.....but I could be wrong, amazing though the concept of me being wrong is:laugh:
 

Earth Wind and Fire

Well-Known Member
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My call is not by what church you go to but prior commentary. For a long time ThinkingStuff indicated he went to a Southern Baptist church also...so you understand where I'm commingled from.

You also indicated you and your wife feel there is something missing from your spiritual lives...and I know you were raised RC and even have an unclimbable who is a priest. So what am I to conclude mate? Actually none of this is any of my business so I will shut up.
 

Earth Wind and Fire

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Ah, the joys of autocorrect!

FWIW, I am in a state of flux at present, spiritually.

If you want to talk about it (without my being judgmental--PROMISE) feel free to PM me. We will keep this between us.

I do need your recommendation on single blend Scotch & the latest English beer or ale.:smilewinkgrin:
 

Thomas Helwys

New Member
I strongly disagree with Roman Catholicism and Calvinism, but I will say nothing further to bash either of them, or I will try not to. There is too much here that is not charitable. Doctrines can be opposed without labeling something a cult or something similar.


Peace to all.
 
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Walter

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I strongly disagree with Roman Catholicism and Calvinism, but I will say nothing further to bash either of them, or I will try not to. There is too much here that is not charitable. Doctrines can be opposed without labeling something a cult or something similar.



Peace to all.

Well, I for one hope you continue on this board. You add much to the discussions and though I might often disagree with you, I learn from you as well.

Pax
 
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DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
Er...not quite. The will and grace of God are paramount in RC soteriology, not the will of man. Justification for RCs is by Christ, in Christ and by grace, faith and Godly works being the products of that grace when not resisted by man. Neither the faith nor the works are strictly speaking the results of man's efforts but rather the results of the Holy Spirit working through man. It's all God, God and God and not man. This is not mere semantics but a very real distinction between what you have said and the theological reality as taught by the RCC.

ETA - thanks to Greg Perry for his good wishes which are reciprocated!
I thought we had been over this already Matt.
The will (as relative to works are concerned) cannot have anything to do with grace.

Justification for the RC's is not in Christ, but rather by works.
The Bible teaches that Justification is by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone. Would they believe that?
It is not what "the RCC theology is," is our standard and authority, but rather the Bible. And their theology contradicts the Bible at every point.

Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
--It is either by grace or by works; it cannot be both. The one excludes the other. This is where the RCC goes wrong. I believe TS calls it cooperating with God in salvation. There is no cooperation. There is nothing man can do. Salvation is all of God. It is God's gift to man. He simply must choose to receive it. (i.e. it is of faith alone.)

How can "Godly grace be the products of that grace" when "that grace" is administered through the sacrament of baptism when the child is an infant. An infant does no godly works, and cannot do any works at all. It simply selfishly clings to its mother demanding it be fed and nourished by her, and demands all of her time. Those aren't "godly works."

Yet, the RCC catechism teaches that baptism = the new birth, or baptismal regeneration. This is one of the first heresies that entered the church. Peter calls it a "damnable heresy." For it is not water that saves, but rather the Holy Spirit working through the Word of God (the gospel).

If one does not keep the sacraments there is no salvation. That is salvation by works.
But what does the Scripture say:
Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
 

Thinkingstuff

Active Member
My call is not by what church you go to but prior commentary. For a long time ThinkingStuff indicated he went to a Southern Baptist church also...so you understand where I'm commingled from.

You also indicated you and your wife feel there is something missing from your spiritual lives...and I know you were raised RC and even have an unclimbable who is a priest. So what am I to conclude mate? Actually none of this is any of my business so I will shut up.

I read this and was reminded of the fact that when I first joined baptist board I came seeking help in my study of scriptures and my faith because I was starting to ask questions as I came across certain issues. (Truth be told I didn't want to "go Catholic" and wanted some academic slam dunks against the Catholic view points) You can see my questioning in this early thread and here or here or hereMan did things go wrong! :smilewinkgrin:
 

Earth Wind and Fire

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
I read this and was reminded of the fact that when I first joined baptist board I came seeking help in my study of scriptures and my faith because I was starting to ask questions as I came across certain issues. (Truth be told I didn't want to "go Catholic" and wanted some academic slam dunks against the Catholic view points) You can see my questioning in this early thread and here or here or hereMan did things go wrong! :smilewinkgrin:

When I came on it was in the midst of the "Catholic Purge" & when I saw that I seriously got defensive & joined in a counter attack. Why, because my sainted Mother & Grandmother were very serious Catholics & people were saying their salvations were compromised & suggesting they were in hell. I dont like that! Anyway right after that occurred....they began to pick on Calvinists. Then my blood was up. A friend I made in here wrote me & incredulously asked me if I was really one of "THEM" !?! I recall asking 3 people to join me in NOT getting into these food fights (reminiscent to the RC scrimmages). One of the guys I asked was you & you never did drag me through the mud though you expressed concerns (basically about double jeopardy). One was (your going to laugh) Winman.....of course he ignored my request. The third guy will remain a mystery to only he & I.

I never knew such vitriol against my faith was possible. After all, my dads family had been Calvinists for many generations (both here & in the UK) & they were the kindest people Id ever known. To think they would have had this kind of persecution was ridiculous.

Long story short....this place has forced me to study more, to interact more & firm up my position in my faith. I have over 2 years of experience & Im more convinced than ever in my beliefs. Thanks everybody---the Minority Christian position is really the one for me to make me more resolute. And I can still have a beer or two, every now and again. LOL
 
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Thomas Helwys

New Member
Well, I for one hope you continue on this board. You add much to the discussions and though I might often disagree with you, I learn from you as well.

Pax

Thank you for your kind words. I sympathize with your journey and search. While I am now quite secure in what I believe, there was a time that I wasn't, and no matter how certain you think you are of something, I believe you can always learn more and should be open to that. Besides, there's a lot we don't know, will never know, and can't know, due to the limits of our humanity.

One thing I have found since coming here, and it is strange to me and something that is rather baffling: Those with whom I disagree the most, Roman Catholics and Calvinists, are the ones I am getting along with the best and are becoming my best friends here! Sure, a couple of us got off to a rough start, but we have made peace in PM's and things are much better. That is why I am reluctant to now get into further discussions about Calvinism and Roman Catholicism. I wouldn't be reluctant, but I have read some threads here and seen how they deteriorated, and I don't want to get involved in that. We should be building each other up, not tearing each other down, even if we strongly disagree with a viewpoint. One of my weaknesses is my temper, and I do not want to "stoke the fire", so to speak.

This old world is a hard enough place as it is without making enemies of those who are supposed to be our brothers and sisters. I am not faultless, but I am determined not to be further at fault.

Anyway, I look forward to further reading of your posts. God's blessings!
 

Yeshua1

Well-Known Member
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Bottom line..

Does Rome teach the Gospel of Jesus and Paul, or one of good works/Grace mingled?
 

Thinkingstuff

Active Member
Bottom line..

Does Rome teach the Gospel of Jesus and Paul, or one of good works/Grace mingled?

The two are not mutually exclusive. However, Catholicism does not teach that you can do works to make God owe you salvation rather we are being saved so that we can, in the strength of God's grace, do good works.
 
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