My People

[Precepts]

Originally posted by Daniel David:
The promise of a healed LAND is given to Israel ONLY.

The church does not inhabit a LAND, does not have any promises of material blessing, and has been promised that she will face persecution.

Now, if you all can work that into 2 Cor. 7:14, have at it. It just won't be correct exegesis.

But, DD, is the term limited to mean only a topographical place on the map and not anywhere related to a specific area such as the church?

I mean, if a church is in utter turmoil, and the assembly humbles themselves and pray, won't God heal their "land"/church?

I understand the exegesis, but I believe you limit the passage by not allowing application of the principle.

Also, by exegesis, do we ever see in scripture, Israel beyond the time of Solomon ever really humbling themselves and praying so God might heal their land? And on that point, ever?

I couldn't say when Israel is restored and the Lord rules the nations with a rod of iron that they are humbling themselves, but rather they are humbled, and probably praying.

I believe the demand for exegesis then becomes legalistic in it's refusal to allow application, that would certainly be associated with heresy to say that the Word of God can only be taken literally and disallowed as application for present day life.

 

[dianetavegia]

Our preacher today spoke of hypocrits and said the word was transliterated from the word meaning 'actor'... one who painted his face and pretended to be something or something he wasn't.

The verse says.. IF my people.... THEN I will hear from heaven. This verse shows an ongoing humbling and not a once a week change. I believe God would heal our land, IF America were to humble, pray, seek HIM, repent and turn from their wicked ways.

Diane

 

[Walls]

Amen Diane, I agree!

 

[Daniel David]

Originally posted by QuickeningSpirit:
I understand the exegesis, but I believe you limit the passage by not allowing application of the principle.

Excuse me, the text has ONLY ONE interpretation. Land is limited to the Nation of Israel. They lived under the 'if / then' conditions of the Old Covenant.

The church can claim no such promise. It is ridiculous for the church to claim this. We are ALWAYS under the favor of God. We are the church. We are holy. We are redeemed. Etc.

 

[LadyEagle]

Excuse me, the text has ONLY ONE interpretation. Land is limited to the Nation of Israel. They lived under the 'if / then' conditions of the Old Covenant.

Oh, that's just nuts!

 

[Daniel David]

Lady, it is completely rooted in Scripture. I can provide references if you need them.

Of course, I am not worried about polishing brass on a sinking ship and reject the nonsense of Hagee, Larkin, British Israel theology, America Israel theology, and the other mindless political activists groups that want a 'moral' society.

 

[Precepts]

Originally posted by Daniel David:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by QuickeningSpirit:
I understand the exegesis, but I believe you limit the passage by not allowing application of the principle.

Excuse me, the text has ONLY ONE interpretation. Land is limited to the Nation of Israel. They lived under the 'if / then' conditions of the Old Covenant.

The church can claim no such promise. It is ridiculous for the church to claim this. We are ALWAYS under the favor of God. We are the church. We are holy. We are redeemed. Etc. </font>[/QUOTE]I say "application" and you jump all over me about interpetation. I know the passage in it's ONE interpetation ONLY deals with the land of Israel, but I was talking APPLICATION. There is a difference you know?

The church is always under the favor of God only if tthat church is obedient to the command of faithfulness and humility. By your statement , it can be construed that you could live anyway you like and the Lord just keeps on blessing inspite of sin, that is NOT the case.

 

[ScottEmerson]

I have to agree with Daniel David on this. As Christians, our sins are already forgiven! Why would we, then need to have God "forgive our sins" by us "turning from our wicked ways?" The forgiveness of sins is contingent upon us turning (if...then statement), and we've already done that! When we accept the forgiveness of Christ, God provides complete forgiveness of the sins that we have ever committed or will ever commit. His forgiveness is total. That is why this verse does not apply to us - God's people now are already forgiven of their sins.

Good call Daniel.

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Daniel,

Do you believe the passage has any practical application for Christians in the 21st century? If so, what would it be?

Joseph Botwinick

 

[LadyEagle]

God's people now are already forgiven of their sins.

True to a point. But our land is not healed. Oh, never mind. We aren't supposed to be light or salt or occupy until He comes. Not if you take DD's position and follow it to the logical end.

Which is just plain goofy.

Also, a lot of preachers are wasting their time preaching to the choir on Sundays if there is no need for repentence from God's people. They might as well close the pulpits and go get other jobs. Especially since some of you don't believe in giving an invitation at the close of the service.

I don't suppose God's people can ever have sin in the camp either. Oh, that's right, more OT nonsense, not applicable for the church.

 

[ScottEmerson]

Originally posted by LadyEagle:
True to a point. But our land is not healed. Oh, never mind. We aren't supposed to be light or salt or occupy until He comes. Not if you take DD's position and follow it to the logical end.

Just because the passage in question doesn't relate specifically to us does not mean that Christ's commands in Matthew 5 are null and void. That's a logical fallacy.

Which is just plain goofy.

The reasoning, you mean?

Also, a lot of preachers are wasting their time preaching to the choir on Sundays if there is no need for repentence from God's people. They might as well close the pulpits and go get other jobs. Especially since some of you don't believe in giving an invitation at the close of the service.

We are to be living like Christ, and a preacher worth his salt stands up and encourages his congregation to be salt and light. We need to live our lives as if we are forgiven and have been made children of God.

I don't suppose God's people can ever have sin in the camp either. Oh, that's right, more OT nonsense, not applicable for the church.

Of course we can sin - again just because the verse in question doesn't apply to us as Christians does not negate the teachings of Christ, Paul, and the other apostles. Don't throw away the baby with the bathwater.

 

[Precepts]

Originally posted by ScottEmerson:
I have to agree with Daniel David on this. As Christians, our sins are already forgiven! Why would we, then need to have God "forgive our sins" by us "turning from our wicked ways?" The forgiveness of sins is contingent upon us turning (if...then statement), and we've already done that! When we accept the forgiveness of Christ, God provides complete forgiveness of the sins that we have ever committed or will ever commit. His forgiveness is total. That is why this verse does not apply to us - God's people now are already forgiven of their sins.

Good call Daniel.

SINCE THE "General Epistles" are written to the church of already born again believers, then it's obvious that we are in a continual state of repentence. Though we have in our attitude towards God made a 180 degree turn around, God is still "perfecting" us, continually showing us areas of our life that need to be changed. Until we get to Heaven, I'm afraid we still need to repent of some things not yet revealed, else no need for our perfecting.

"Perfecting" is an action verb in the present tense. We are not yet in our glorified bodies and the flesh we are enrobed in is still tempted and subject to sin.

Many are ensnared by satan, and until shown the error of their ways, through preaching, they are in a continual state of sinning, though already forgiven, they must repent of that present sin, "so the Heavens won't become brass", being under judgement for that "regarded" sin.

Any of us who have been saved for any real amount of time already know the reality of "sin in the camp". God does not allow us to continue in sin that grace might abound, He reproves us of sin, has given space of repentence, opened the altar of forgiveness, His Son being our Advocate and the Propitiation for our sin.

Yes, all our sins are forgiven, past, present, and future, but that is never a license to continue in sin.

Two well educated men as DD and Scott know the passages dealing with wrong doing amongst the body of Christ, knowing full well that sinless perfection isn't accomplished in the flesh, and if they happen not to be educated in that respect, then I will gladly bring to their attention the passages in Our New Testament for them.

The soul of a man is sinless after salvation, the flesh is not eradicated, and must be given a new body, the spirit of a man is effected by his emotions, and wavers.

We are to put on the Mind of Christ, but at times we fail to do so, standing in need of humblin g ourselves and praying.

We all will admit pride is a sin, but many fail to even sense the level of pride within them and satan has them blinded and thereby preventing them from what God has further in store for them in this life.

Pride is killing the "outreach" of the Body of Christ, shamefully, much of that pride in the IFB, but definitely not limited to us.

 

[ScottEmerson]

Originally posted by QuickeningSpirit:
SINCE THE "General Epistles" are written to the church of already born again believers, then it's obvious that we are in a continual state of repentence. Though we have in our attitude towards God made a 180 degree turn around, God is still "perfecting" us, continually showing us areas of our life that need to be changed. Until we get to Heaven, I'm afraid we still need to repent of some things not yet revealed, else no need for our perfecting.

The fact remains that we are forgiven. 100%. That is why the verse in question does not apply to us as believers. We've already been set free from sin - the law of spirit and life has set us free from the law of sin and death. As you will notice, my problem with the application of this verse to Christianity is not in repentance, but in forgiveness.

"Perfecting" is an action verb in the present tense. We are not yet in our glorified bodies and the flesh we are enrobed in is still tempted and subject to sin.

Which I in no way denied.

Yes, all our sins are forgiven, past, present, and future, but that is never a license to continue in sin.

Which is what Paul says quite clearly.

Two well educated men as DD and Scott know the passages dealing with wrong doing amongst the body of Christ, knowing full well that sinless perfection isn't accomplished in the flesh, and if they happen not to be educated in that respect, then I will gladly bring to their attention the passages in Our New Testament for them.

The problem with the passage is not sin, nor repentence - I pointed out that problem.

Pride is killing the "outreach" of the Body of Christ, shamefully, much of that pride in the IFB, but definitely not limited to us.

Personally, and from talking to unbelievers, pride isn't killing outreach nearly as bad as the lack of loving others.

 

[LadyEagle]

Great post, QS. That's why I said their premise is goofy.

 

[Walls]

Originally posted by ScottEmerson:
The fact remains that we are forgiven. 100%. That is why the verse in question does not apply to us as believers.

Christ covered all sins on the cross, but that doesn't apply to us until we have repenheted and received that forgiveness. After that are current sins are not forgiven until confessed.

Does not 2 Cor6:16 say for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

We are His people and those verses do apply to us if we truly be born into the family of God!

 

[Precepts]

Personally, and from talking to unbelievers, pride isn't killing outreach nearly as bad as the lack of loving others.

I wish you could examine your statement and see, Scott, the reason people don't love is because of pride, hateful pride, a lack of understanding and eaten up with the lack of true compassion.

Yes, we as "saints"/children of the Most High are forgiven, but our land is not healed, that is because of sin. Chruches are full of sin, the reason being the home is full of sin. Now that's not the case evrywhere, God still has His remnant: those who obey the voice of God and are diligent in their practice and willing to humble themselves and pray.

Now this should never be confused with a voluntary humility, because our humility is because of the prompting of the Holy Ghost who convicts us of wrong doing.

The rebellious attitudes to holiness are rooted in bitterness and pride, selfishness and failure to reckon the things of God more precious than the rudiments of this present evil world.

We need proper balance in our Christian walk, being certain not to lean either to the right or the left, Judaisers or liberals, but balanced.

Salt is good, when it is first pure, then peacable, untainted with hypocrisy, or overwhelmed with sweetness. Ever tried mixing sugar with salt? Yuck!

There is the constant need of the Christian to be humbled before the Throne of Mercy, before the altar of incense, offering up our heartfelt prayers as dear saints, not laiden with sin or even a hint of impurity, else we make Christ the messenger of sin and of none effect. We can come to the Mercy Seat because of Christ, not so we can keep sinning because of Christ. There is a big difference: enmity with God because of the flesh, or humbled before God because of sorrow for sin.

God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace to the humble.

I'm forgiven! Never forgotten, never forsaken, Thank You , Jesus, for your being my High Priest that entered once into the veil, establishing the New Covenant forever, that, I will never take for granted and to think myself above humility!(Though I have to admit there are times I have been guilty of this, but I continue to repent.)

 

[ScottEmerson]

Originally posted by Walls:
Christ covered all sins on the cross, but that doesn't apply to us until we have repenheted and received that forgiveness. After that are current sins are not forgiven until confessed.

Where do you see that not all sins are forgiven upon the acceptance of Christ as Savior?

Does not 2 Cor6:16 say for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

We are His people and those verses do apply to us if we truly be born into the family of God!

Let's substitute Christian with "my people" and see if it applies.

"If Christians will humble themselves and pray, and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and I will forgive their sins, and I will heal their land."

The problem is that as a Christian, we have been forgiven completely. No sin that we commit can ever make us unforgiven. It's 100%. What Biblical passages are you using to make the case that sin committed after salvation can be not forgiven?

 

[Daniel David]

Originally posted by Walls:
After that are current sins are not forgiven until confessed.

What!? I didn't know catholics could post in this part of the board.

Christ forgives all sins, past, present, and future.

Nice camp you have alligned yourself with Sheeagle. First Larkin, then Hagee, now Walls. Nice.

 

[Precepts]

The problem is that as a Christian, we have been forgiven completely. No sin that we commit can ever make us unforgiven. It's 100%. What Biblical passages are you using to make the case that sin committed after salvation can be not forgiven?

I sure am glad being a Christian isn't a problem, nor that my sins are completely forgiven. My question for Scott and DD, what is the Judgement Seat of Christ for?

What are the wood, hay, and stubble? If they are only limited to the things we did for our own glory, are they not also sin? Ere, since I John is written to believers to "secure" their belief and give comfort in times of doubt, why the passage in I John 1:9?

Seems after salvation there are sins to be confessed, and any that the Holy Ghost fails to show us , and He doesn't fail, never has, never will, it will only prove of the truth if we fail to confess these sins, then God will have to burn them as this wood, hay, and stubble so we can enter into His rest as perfectly sinless.

I believe many would love to avoid the Judgement Seat of Christ, though I'm not looking forward to it, I'd much rather be there than before the Great White Throne Judgement.

Also, I would like to see how you could explain away the statement by Jesus, that some will be saved as though by fire? If this doesn't have anything to do with sin in the Christian's life, then explain. I, for one of a multitude, believe it certainly does.

Sinless perfection is not yet acheived, thus the need for a continual repentence, not just a one time, "that's all she wrote" repentence.

Sinless perfection is exemplified by Christ Jesus, and in Him alone are we found sinless in our everliving soul, which the case is those saved by grace.

 

[ScottEmerson]

Originally posted by QuickeningSpirit:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> The problem is that as a Christian, we have been forgiven completely. No sin that we commit can ever make us unforgiven. It's 100%. What Biblical passages are you using to make the case that sin committed after salvation can be not forgiven?

I sure am glad being a Christian isn't a problem, nor that my sins are completely forgiven. My question for Scott and DD, what is the Judgement Seat of Christ for?

What are the wood, hay, and stubble? If they are only limited to the things we did for our own glory, are they not also sin? Ere, since I John is written to believers to "secure" their belief and give comfort in times of doubt, why the passage in I John 1:9?

Seems after salvation there are sins to be confessed, and any that the Holy Ghost fails to show us , and He doesn't fail, never has, never will, it will only prove of the truth if we fail to confess these sins, then God will have to burn them as this wood, hay, and stubble so we can enter into His rest as perfectly sinless.

I believe many would love to avoid the Judgement Seat of Christ, though I'm not looking forward to it, I'd much rather be there than before the Great White Throne Judgement.

Also, I would like to see how you could explain away the statement by Jesus, that some will be saved as though by fire? If this doesn't have anything to do with sin in the Christian's life, then explain. I, for one of a multitude, believe it certainly does.

Sinless perfection is not yet acheived, thus the need for a continual repentence, not just a one time, "that's all she wrote" repentence.

Sinless perfection is exemplified by Christ Jesus, and in Him alone are we found sinless in our everliving soul, which the case is those saved by grace. </font>[/QUOTE]For answers to all this, read Bridges' The Pursuit of Holiness.