My Theology (6/24h Day Creation, Pre-Trib Pre-Mill, Provisionist, Inerrant Word of God believer)

[Jem Simmo]

Thanks Jem - I think you misunderstood my last point -

I too totally reject the RC attitude to tradition & their false theological teachings developed down the centuries.

I question your position here -

Scripture requires Covenant Theology - in use, a Covenant is God's promise of blessing in return for faithful obedience. The Patriarchs were promised blessings for their descendants ultimately through the Seed - Christ. Their natural descendants received blessings along the way - increased numbers to become a great nation, deliverance from Egypt, the Law, sacrifices for sin, the Land, judges, a King, Prophetic guidance and finally the Messiah, our LORD Jesus Christ.

I would have to disagree with you. I don't think the Old Covenant has been done away with in regards to Israel between God and Israel himself.

Leviticus 26:43-46 says this

43For the land will be deserted by them and will enjoy its sabbaths while it lies desolate without them. They will pay for their sins because they rejected my laws and abhorred my decrees. 44Yet in spite of this, when they are in the land of their enemies, I will not reject them or abhor them so as to destroy them completely, breaking my covenant with them. I am the Lord their God. 45But for their sake I will remember the covenant with their ancestors whom I brought out of Egypt in the sight of the nations to be their God. I am the Lord.” ’
46These are the decrees, the laws and the regulations that the Lord established at Mount Sinai between himself and the Israelites through Moses.

God has not ceased with his People, he has made an everlasting covenant that has not been superceeded.

Genesis 17:19 says - Then God said, "Yes, but your wife Sarah will bear you a son, and you will call him Isaac. I will establish my covenant with him as an everlasting covenant for his descendants after him.

Psalm 105:5-11 says -
5Remember the wonders he has done,
his miracles, and the judgments he pronounced,
6you his servants, the descendants of Abraham,
his chosen ones, the children of Jacob.
7He is the Lord our God;
his judgments are in all the earth.

8He remembers his covenant for ever,
the promise he made, for a thousand generations,
9the covenant he made with Abraham,
the oath he swore to Isaac.
10He confirmed it to Jacob as a decree,
to Israel as an everlasting covenant:
11‘To you I will give the land of Canaan
as the portion you will inherit.’

Romans 11 confirms it, God is still for his people
11Again I ask: did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their full inclusion bring!
13I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I take pride in my ministry 14in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them. 15For if their rejection brought reconciliation to the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16If the part of the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches.
17If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches. If you do, consider this: you do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19You will say then, ‘Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.’ 20Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. 21For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.
22Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!

25I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, 26and in this way all Israel will be saved. As it is written:
‘The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
27And this is my covenant with them
when I take away their sins.’
28As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable. 30Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you. 32For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

33Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God!
How unsearchable his judgments,
and his paths beyond tracing out!
34‘Who has known the mind of the Lord?
Or who has been his counsellor?’
35‘Who has ever given to God,
that God should repay them?’
36For from him and through him and for him are all things.
To him be the glory for ever! Amen.

Finally we can see in Zechariah 14 that if we put the church in the place of Israel it doesn't make sense. Even Luther said he couldn't make head or tail of it. Why because he was looking at it wrongly. God has his heart on his people regardless of their rejection. Why because God is faithful. I would add the entirety of Zechariah but it is too much for the thread. I've had to cut my references due to word count. Apologies.

 

[timtofly]

God is not even done with His covenant to Noah and the Nations. The 3.5 year tribulation is the judgment on the church, the house of Jacob, and the Nations. The Nations go through all 3 sets of Judgments. The house of Jacob goes through the first 2 sets. The church only goes through the Seals. The church and OT Saints, it does not matter if they are Jew or Gentile, will never be removed from the Lamb's book of life. It is spiritually and physically impossible. The body of Christ is taken out even before the 7th Seal is opened. When the 7th Seal is opened the book will be opened, and names will be removed. Names will never, ever be added. During the Seals and Thunderings will be when humans left will chose to remain in the book or not. The 144K are sealed, and cannot be unsealed. They will be whiteness as only the future can describe. We are not told how or what they do. At some point the harvest of the nations and modern Jews will be reaped. Then God will deal directly with any one left alive on earth. Of course the Vatican will want to have a say. They just missed the first and second harvest. Well yes, the woman of Babylon/Rome is still around.

The Second Coming will happen in April of 2023. Christ will make a deal with Satan that lets him have 3.5 years starting on Wednesday of that week. The last 3.5 days of the week will be postponed until the end of that time. There will only be 2 witnesses. The choice will be the mark, and name removed from the Lamb's book of life, or chopping the head off. Those whose heads are chopped off remain in the Lamb's book of life. Revelation 20:4-6

4 Then I saw thrones, and those seated on them received authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for testifying about Yeshua and proclaiming the Word of God, also those who had not worshipped the beast or its image and had not received the mark on their foreheads and on their hands. They came to life and ruled with the Messiah for a thousand years.
5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were over.) This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is anyone who has a part in the first resurrection; over him the second death has no power. On the contrary, they will be cohanim of God and of the Messiah, and they will rule with him for the thousand years.

 

[John of Japan]

God is not even done with His covenant to Noah and the Nations. The 3.5 year tribulation is the judgment on the church, the house of Jacob, and the Nations.

Why in the world would God judge the Church? It's the body of Christ. Would God punish His own Son's body, all believers? The Bible says no: "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit" (Rom. 8:1).

The Second Coming will happen in April of 2023.

Why do you think you know when Christ will come when He Himself said only the Father knows? But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only" (Matt. 24:36). "But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father" (Mark 13:32).

 

[timtofly]

Why in the world would God judge the Church? It's the body of Christ. Would God punish His own Son's body, all believers? The Bible says no: "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit" (Rom. 8:1).

Why do you think you know when Christ will come when He Himself said only the Father knows? But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only" (Matt. 24:36). "But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father" (Mark 13:32).

I Peter 4:17-19

17 For the time has come for the judgment to begin. It begins with the household of God; and if it starts with us, what will the outcome be for those who are disobeying God’s Good News? —

18 “If the righteous is barely delivered,
where will the ungodly and sinful end up?”

19 So let those who are suffering according to God’s will entrust themselves to a faithful Creator by continuing to do what is good.

We can know the Second Coming. It is spelled out in Revelation and Daniel if any one cares to listen with their God given ears.

The Rapture is the unknown part. Only God knows when that happens. And only the day and hour is hidden. Does not even say month or year. Could one figure out the month after the 4th seal is opened? Who knows? I don't know when the seals will be opened. I can only witness when they have been opened. After the rapture all should know that Revelation is explaining every thing. Unless they keep believing the lies of Satan.

 

[John of Japan]

I Peter 4:17-19

17 For the time has come for the judgment to begin. It begins with the household of God; and if it starts with us, what will the outcome be for those who are disobeying God’s Good News? —

18 “If the righteous is barely delivered,
where will the ungodly and sinful end up?”

19 So let those who are suffering according to God’s will entrust themselves to a faithful Creator by continuing to do what is good.

Peter is not referring to the church here, but to Israel. Beginning with the term "Bethel," meaning "house of God," there are many, many references in the OT either the Temple or Israel itself as the "house of God." In the NT, we have Matt. 12:4, Mark 2:26, Luke 6:4 and Heb. 10:21 referring to the Temple as the "house of God." The only passage bolstering your assumption that the church is in view in 1 Peter 4:17 is 1 Tim. 3:15, but that is obviously a reference in other passages to Paul's teaching that we (plural) are the temple of God. It is a big jump to assume that Peter is referring to the church.

In Peter's passage, the reference in the context is to suffering persecution as a Christian, not punishment as a Christian. So it is poor exegesis to apply it to the tribulation whatever one's belief on the duration of that time. Peter did not say, "Yeah, God is going to judge the church." He said, "Judgement begins at the house of God" (meaning the temple). 82 times in the OT it means the Temple, so that is what any believing or unbelieving Jew would think of when they read 2 Peter.

We can know the Second Coming. It is spelled out in Revelation and Daniel if any one cares to listen with their God given ears.

That is not what Jesus said in Matt. 24:36, which is about the 2nd coming in power and glory, not the Rapture. Look back at v. 30 in the context, which shows that the coming of v. 36 is public for all to see--not the Rapture. So the Bible is definitely against setting dates for the 2nd Coming, not just the Rapture.

The Rapture is the unknown part. Only God knows when that happens. And only the day and hour is hidden. Does not even say month or year. Could one figure out the month after the 4th seal is opened? Who knows? I don't know when the seals will be opened. I can only witness when they have been opened. After the rapture all should know that Revelation is explaining every thing. Unless they keep believing the lies of Satan.

This is an old, old excuse for disobeying the command of God and setting dates. "Oh, it just says 'day and hour,' not 'month and year.'" That's quibbling. Christ was condemning date setting, not saying, "Don't try to figure out the day and hour, but yeah, go ahead with that month and year." Do you really think Christ was giving you permission here to set dates here? If so, you join a multitude in past history who have set dates and then been exposed--the Millerites, Charles Taze Russel, James M. Campbell, Blanton Duncan, that kid in Korea when I was a missionary to Japan (caused an uproar), etc. They were all mistaken.

Luke 12:40, "Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not."

 

[John of Japan]

The bible set the dates, not me.

If you care not to see what the Bible says, then you only judge and condemn yourself. If you are prepared, why discourage those who are not? If being prepared is against your beliefs, then you can choose to remain unprepared.

We can be prepared for both. Since both the rapture and the Second Coming do not happen on the same day, why claim the Second Coming is not known? You are yourself adding limits to God's Word. So, yes, judging your own understanding.

This is a nasty attack. You accuse me of not seeing what the Bible says, being unprepared and having being prepared be against my beliefs, and "adding limits to God's Word." And you don't even know me!!

I taught Bible in Japan for decades. I now teach Bible and theology, including eschatology, in the US at the college and seminary level. I have translated the Greek NT into Japanese, including Revelation. I think we could have had a profitable discussion here. However, by your nastiness, you have chosen not to have me interact with you any more.

Good luck on the BB. I think you'll find that most of us won't put up with these kinds of attacks.

 

[John of Japan]

Folks, why is it that "pre-wrath" advocates can be so nasty? It's a mystery to me. They claim to be prepared for the 3 1/2 years, but then they don't treat other believers right? Tell you what, even assuming the pre-wrath position is correct (I do not), you're not going to last in tough times (like with a worldwide pandemic, for example) unless you walk with Jesus in the revival lifestyle. Only constant fullness of the Holy Spirit and closeness to Jesus can take us through the tough times.

As I've mentioned on here several times, I had emergency surgery on Christmas Eve last year, and then was in the hospital for 13 days. Through the surgery I developed blood clots in my lungs and diabetes. I had about four lines going in and coming out of my body--couldn't sleep at night for days--just lay in that bed without moving. I'll have follow-up surgery in June, God willing. Folks, the Lord Jesus Christ was incredibly near to me all through the experience. He kept me from fear and worry. This was the worst tribulation of my life, yet God was with me, incredibly close. I do not regret a split second of that experience.

If I am wrong, perchance, and we do go through part or all of the Tribulation Period, I know that God will be with me then. I'm fully prepared spiritually.

 

[timtofly]

This is a nasty attack. You accuse me of not seeing what the Bible says, being unprepared and having being prepared be against my beliefs, and "adding limits to God's Word." And you don't even know me!!

I taught Bible in Japan for decades. I now teach Bible and theology, including eschatology, in the US at the college and seminary level. I have translated the Greek NT into Japanese, including Revelation. I think we could have had a profitable discussion here. However, by your nastiness, you have chosen not to have me interact with you any more.

Good luck on the BB. I think you'll find that most of us won't put up with these kinds of attacks.

The very fact that I do not know you, declares it was not an attack. Why do you defend yourself?

It was a challenge to prove me wrong. Since I made no guesses about your character and knowledge, how was I even attempting an attack? If you choose not to defend your post, you are certainly free to walk away. I am not here to play games, guess if people have mountains of education backing them up, judging people, nor here to change one's beliefs.

 

[John of Japan]

The very fact that I do not know you, declares it was not an attack.

Oh, really? So some guy knocks me down on the street and takes my wallet, but it isn't an attack because he didn't know me?

Why do you defend yourself?

Didn't defend myself at all. Simply gave a brief resume and declared that I was done with you. But you are being inconsistent. if you didn't attack me then I didn't defend myself, right?

So now I'll put you on "ignore."

 

[Yeshua1]

This is a nasty attack. You accuse me of not seeing what the Bible says, being unprepared and having being prepared be against my beliefs, and "adding limits to God's Word." And you don't even know me!!

I taught Bible in Japan for decades. I now teach Bible and theology, including eschatology, in the US at the college and seminary level. I have translated the Greek NT into Japanese, including Revelation. I think we could have had a profitable discussion here. However, by your nastiness, you have chosen not to have me interact with you any more.

Good luck on the BB. I think you'll find that most of us won't put up with these kinds of attacks.

he seems to be someone whose full time gig is making up those end time prophecy charts, and waiting on roof for Jesus to soon return!

 

[John of Japan]

he seems to be someone whose full time gig is making up those end time prophecy charts, and waiting on roof for Jesus to soon return!

Hmm.

 

[timtofly]

Oh, really? So some guy knocks me down on the street and takes my wallet, but it isn't an attack because he didn't know me?

Didn't defend myself at all. Simply gave a brief resume and declared that I was done with you. But you are being inconsistent. if you didn't attack me then I didn't defend myself, right?

So now I'll put you on "ignore."

What did you loose in this attack, that was not an attack, if you lost nothing?

You are the one who said it was a nasty attack. Are you withdrawing that statement?

 

[timtofly]

he seems to be someone whose full time gig is making up those end time prophecy charts, and waiting on roof for Jesus to soon return!

I am just waiting for the 1000 year reign of Christ. I may be patient enough to wait for the New Heavens and Earth, but that seems too noble of a goal. I think having fun on this current earth for a 1000 years will fly by too fast as it is.

 

[xlsdraw]

The very fact that I do not know you, declares it was not an attack. Why do you defend yourself?

It was a challenge to prove me wrong. Since I made no guesses about your character and knowledge, how was I even attempting an attack? If you choose not to defend your post, you are certainly free to walk away. I am not here to play games, guess if people have mountains of education backing them up, judging people, nor here to change one's beliefs.

Exhibit B

 

[Calminian]

I thought I would start by saying the above title is what I believe.

But I also want to say that I want a place where I can also call out people who claim they're theologians who have twisted views of the scripture because they don't operate in correct Hermeneutics or exegesis.

In regards to how the scripture should be applied with the Old Testament (I'm looking at you Covenant/Replacement Theologians, you have a lot to answer for) with the New Testament (I'm looking at you Calvinists/Arminians, when you interpret through a theology of course you thing its based on individuals. But as the body of Christ it is always a corporate view, just like God dealing with the Nation of Israel corporately in blessing and disobedience. Romans 9-11, ) I also see God as omnipotent and above all things (Yes you evolutionist/Theistic Evolutionists/Old Age Creationist, you all don't get it. God is all- powerful and beyond our comprehension, he is above all and his ability to speak things into existence is far greater than limiting it to science. When you view science through the lense of scripture and don't get technical God created this world and scientific explanation is right there. If you believe the scripture then instead of limiting the most powerful being in both time and space and outside of it too. Bottom line you can't have physical death before Sin, what is the point of Jesus death and resurrection, Romans 5:12-15 )

If I have not been humble in my opening, I must apologise. I'm sorry. As I have been growing in my understanding I have come to see that when you examine the scripture through the lens of the theology you distort the word of God. (John MacArthur, John Piper etc) tend to do this without even realising or if they do they are so cemented in their ideas of Calvinism and other theology that they are unwilling to examine the scripture purely through the scriptures. If you do this then Scripture determines your theology and not the other way round. The same can be said of a Covenant/Replacement Theologian, your unwillingness to recognise to separate entities in the Nation of Israel and Body of Christ. That's dangerous firstly you help build antisemitism and secondly the promises of God meant for the People Israel make no sense to the church. Many theologians have tried in vain to push them into the church and argue pointlessly and with extremely great difficulty eg Zechariah 14, if you actually look it matches up with Revelation 19-20. It isn't talking about Ezekiel 38-39 at all. That has more to do with Israel than it does the Amilleinnial view.

The same can be said of Lane Craig and Hugh Ross. Sure you might have mildly different views and you might argue them eloquently and scientifically. Instead of calling believers who believe what God's word says "Foolish", you are trying to defend the indefensible. The truth is God is able to calling into being by the word of his mouth everything. He doesn't need long ages to do a thing. A global flood happened not because I believe it happened but because when you actually have a scientifically biblical worldview it all makes sense.

I may just be getting started but at the end of the day if I say nothing I'll explode...I'd rather do so on here. I'm sorry for not being gentle, I'm sorry for sounding unloving. I know I'm in the minority both within Baptist circles and other denominations. I can't stay silent and I can't follow after theology over the scripture. I'm happy to converse. I'm happy to listen, please be also listening. If I am wrong pray, pray that the Lord would open my eyes to this. I'll pray for you too.

Lots of pushback. I'm shocked these are controversial points.

In all seriousness, though, I do see a correlation between biblical six-day creationism and premillennialism. They are both straightforward literal approaches to biblical history and prophecy. Straying from this approach, I agree, is problematic.

 

[Calminian]

Eph 2 clearly tells us that Jews and Gentiles have been joined into one new man by Jesus’ death on the cross. The Law has been abolished.

For there to be a separate future for National Israel and the Church, the unification accomplished by Christ’ death must be undone which is impossible.

peace to you

The two are not mutually exclusive, and in a sense you're right. An event is on the horizon known as the rapture. The Church will be taken out of the earth, ushering in the tribulation period.

You'll notice in Revelation, the Church is not mentioned after chapter 3 when the tribulation is described in detail, until Christ returns with his saints.

 

[timtofly]

The two are not mutually exclusive, and in a sense you're right. An event is on the horizon known as the rapture. The Church will be taken out of the earth, ushering in the tribulation period.

You'll notice in Revelation, the Church is not mentioned after chapter 3 when the tribulation is described in detail, until Christ returns with his saints.

Except for that small detail about the Lamb's book of life, the Atonement, the seven seals, seals 5 and 6, the alter in heaven, who the saints are, who gets a robe of white, glorified bodies, sons of God. Nothing much, just the mystery of God's hidden plan of what this whole reality really is.

 

[Calminian]

Long listen, but worth the while.

 

[Calminian]

Except for that small detail about the Lamb's book of life, the Atonement, the seven seals, seals 5 and 6, the alter in heaven, who the saints are, who gets a robe of white, glorified bodies, sons of God. Nothing much, just the mystery of God's hidden plan of what this whole reality really is.

How do any of these depict the Church on earth? Not a single one. You think atonement is a term exclusive to the Church? You think the Lamb is a reference to the Church? That the church has a book of life? Very strange.

The rapture view, is the the Church is taken up to heaven to later return with Christ. That whole robe scene is in heaven. They are absent on the earth during the tribulation period. You really should look into this view.

 

[timtofly]

How do any of these depict the Church on earth? Not a single one. You think atonement is a term exclusive to the Church? You think the Lamb is a reference to the Church? That the church has a book of life? Very strange.

The rapture view, is the the Church is taken up to heaven to later return with Christ. That whole robe scene is in heaven. They are absent on the earth during the tribulation period. You really should look into this view.

It is kinda hard for the church to avoid the seals, but easy for it's members to remain in the dark.