My thoughts and questions on "Ten Reasons Primitive Baptists Are Not Calvinists."

[Silverhair]

People who are sure they have been born again
are promised (in the NT) that they will gain heaven.

But the question is what do you base that assurance upon.

1] that you were chosen before the foundation of the world
2] that you responded to the drawing of God
3] that you trusted in the risen Christ

Many people think they are saved but it is a false assurance as it is not based on scripture.

 

[Dougcho]

But the question is what do you base that assurance upon.
1] that you were chosen before the foundation of the world
2] that you responded to the drawing of God
3] that you trusted in the risen Christ
Many people think they are saved but it is a false assurance as it is not based on scripture.

You missed perhaps the most important PROOF ...
4) that your thoughts, opinions, interests, etc. have changed

 

[Silverhair]

You missed perhaps the most important PROOF ...
4) that your thoughts, opinions, interests, etc. have changed

Just because your "thoughts, opinions, interests, etc. have changed" is no proof that you have any assurance of salvation. Those are all just subjective. Mormons, JW's and even some of those in "mainline" denominations will be surprised when they stand before Christ.

 

[kyredneck]

Mormons, JW's and even some of those in "mainline" denominations will be surprised when they stand before Christ.

Lol, I’m convinced the first two weeks of heaven are going to be a shocker to us all as to who’s there and who’s NOT there,
hardline free-willets like you especially.

 

[Silverhair]

Lol, I’m convinced the first two weeks of heaven are going to be a shocker to us all as to who’s there and who’s NOT there,
hardline free-willets like you especially.

Oh I have no doubt that I will be there as I know whom I have trusted in but since you never did trust in Christ but had to be given your faith well what can I say. Hope your there but...

 

[kyredneck]

@Silverhair
I wasn’t questioning whether you’d be there, I was implying you’d be shocked during [oxymoron alert] ‘the first two weeks of heaven’.

 

[Alan Dale Gross]

People who are sure they have been born again
are promised (in the NT) that they will gain heaven.

That is exactly, perfectly right, Dougcho, the problem as I see it has to do, then, with this particular group not being brought to a belief that being Born Again is a singular, Monumental, Eternal, Divine Event that takes place at an individual's Appointed Time to be saved, on a specific date, that they personally experience when God Saved their soul.

They have, what best may be said to say it like, "gosh, I hope I'm Saved", for their 'testimony' and it may be best thought of as, "Sentimentality".

So, any more defining of terms that is attempted to take place is, therefore, simply a smear, because they don't feel like playing.

Well you have been very deliberate in your rock throwing accusations! Apparently you are spoiling for a fight rather than seeking to understand us. May I say that I’m very disappointed in your approach… it appears to be a blind side hit job!

It looks like you are one deceitful shallow narrowminded bigoted intolerant individual that has no qualms about smearing your brothers and sisters in Christ in this temporal realm, the very same brothers and sisters in Christ that you're going to spend eternity in glory with, You thread-swamper, with your idiotic multi-colored copy and paste crap, you are one very SHALLOW individual.

They are indeed humble and loving people.

Doesn't cause me discomfort because i don't read long posts.

You're welcome.

 

[DaveXR650]

People who are sure they have been born again
are promised (in the NT) that they will gain heaven.

When I saw this I thought "man, this is a big problem". But then you put up this:

You missed perhaps the most important PROOF ...
4) that your thoughts, opinions, interests, etc. have changed

And I agree with you. The question of how do you know you are a believer or how do you know you are elect or how do you know you are saved seems to be an issue.

That is exactly, perfectly right, Dougcho, the problem as I see it has to do, then, with this particular group not being brought to a belief that being Born Again is a singular, Monumental, Eternal, Divine Event that takes place at an individual's Appointed Time to be saved, on a specific date, that they personally experience when God Saved their soul.

I wasn't sure which group you are referring to but you have a point. I have noticed that Reformed groups avoid "invitations" and most folks have a vague idea of when it was they were saved. And honestly, even in fundamentalist groups, if you are raised in a good church it is quite possible to have a vague idea of exactly when you were truly saved, just because you don't have a past to look back on when you were not saved. I don't know how PB's handle this and would like to hear from some of them.

I think there is a problem with relying on looking back at a time when you "went forward" or said a prayer, if that is all you are willing to look at. (I am not against public invitations or praying a prayer.) But reformed groups seem to rely on infant baptism, and/or a "confirmation" at a certain age if they are heavy on covenant theology or like the Puritans, they get into looking for assurance or proof they have been born again.

It seems like we always are in danger of going off the deep end either way. We want a "thing" or event we can cling to, or we set up a system of discovering assurance that can become legalistic. What do Primitive Baptists say about this that is different than what a Reformed Baptist would say?

 

[Dougcho]

But reformed groups seem to rely on infant baptism ...

Infant baptism has got to be one of the greatest travesties!
NT baptism is ONLY by immersion (submersion) in H2O.

But, perhaps the greatest travesty of all is ...
the RCC ignoring Jesus' command to NOT call anyone on earth Father or Master.
(Now, of course, we may call a man "father" if he is our biological father.)

 

[Alan Dale Gross]

I have noticed that Reformed groups avoid "invitations" and most folks have a vague idea of when it was they were saved. And honestly, even in fundamentalist groups, if you are raised in a good church it is quite possible to have a vague idea of exactly when you were truly saved, just because you don't have a past to look back on when you were not saved. I don't know how PB's handle this and would like to hear from some of them.

Just some thoughts of interest from this portion of this article,

Why You Should​

Trust the New Testament:​

Reasons for Reliability​

Author:
Benjamin Shaw

"Spiritual and Life Transformation."

"Spiritual or life transformations will undoubtedly strike many as an odd inclusion for the reliability of the NT."

"Indeed, I am not arguing that the NT is trustworthy simply because lives have been changed from reading it. Rather, that transformed lives are consistent with NT teachings."

"To put it another way, if the NT teachings were true and Jesus was who He said He was, made comments about the existence of the church, the role of the Holy Spirit in the lives of believers, and so on, then it would be very strange indeed if lives were not transformed.17"

"Believers have often testified as to how the NT has directly impacted them personally. Many of us can think of well-known believers who have had such experiences (e.g., Augustine) as well as people whom we have met in our own lives.18"

"In The Book That Made Your World, Vishal Mangalwadi points out that the Bible is not only something that we read and interpret, but it is also something that “interprets and evaluates us.”19 The conviction one may experience while reading the Sermon on the Mount or reflecting on its truths.20"

"Nonbelievers have also recognized the transformation of others even if they are not necessarily transformed themselves. One may note that there has been an increase in language referring to “cultural Christians” (language used by even Richard Dawkins lately 21).

"Others similarly appreciate the values and foundations of Christianity even if they do not or have not (yet) decided to follow Jesus.22 Here we may simply note William Lecky’s famous comment:"

"It was reserved for Christianity to present to the world an ideal character, which through all the changes of eighteen centuries has inspired the hearts of men with an impassioned love; has shown itself capable of acting on all ages, nations, temperaments, and conditions; has been not only the highest pattern of virtue but the strongest incentive to its practice; and has exercised so deep an influence that it may be truly said that the simple record of three short years of active life has done more to regenerate and to soften mankind than all the disquisitions of philo ophers, and all the exhortations of moralists. 23"

 

[Alan Dale Gross]

I have noticed that Reformed groups avoid "invitations" and most folks have a vague idea of when it was they were saved. And honestly, even in fundamentalist groups, if you are raised in a good church it is quite possible to have a vague idea of exactly when you were truly saved, just because you don't have a past to look back on when you were not saved. I don't know how PB's handle this and would like to hear from some of them.

Just some thoughts of interest from this portion of this article,

Why You Should​

Trust the New Testament:​

Reasons for Reliability​

Author:
Benjamin Shaw

"Spiritual and Life Transformation."

"Spiritual or life transformations will undoubtedly strike many as an odd inclusion for the reliability of the NT."

"Indeed, I am not arguing that the NT is trustworthy simply because lives have been changed from reading it. Rather, that transformed lives are consistent with NT teachings."

"To put it another way, if the NT teachings were true and Jesus was who He said He was, made comments about the existence of the church, the role of the Holy Spirit in the lives of believers, and so on, then it would be very strange indeed if lives were not transformed.17"

"Believers have often testified as to how the NT has directly impacted them personally. Many of us can think of well-known believers who have had such experiences (e.g., Augustine) as well as people whom we have met in our own lives.18"

"In The Book That Made Your World, Vishal Mangalwadi points out that the Bible is not only something that we read and interpret, but it is also something that “interprets and evaluates us.”19 The conviction one may experience while reading the Sermon on the Mount or reflecting on its truths.20"

"Nonbelievers have also recognized the transformation of others even if they are not necessarily transformed themselves. One may note that there has been an increase in language referring to “cultural Christians” (language used by even Richard Dawkins lately 21).

"Others similarly appreciate the values and foundations of Christianity even if they do not or have not (yet) decided to follow Jesus.22 Here we may simply note William Lecky’s famous comment:"

"It was reserved for Christianity to present to the world an ideal character, which through all the changes of eighteen centuries has inspired the hearts of men with an impassioned love; has shown itself capable of acting on all ages, nations, temperaments, and conditions; has been not only the highest pattern of virtue but the strongest incentive to its practice; and has exercised so deep an influence that it may be truly said that the simple record of three short years of active life has done more to regenerate and to soften mankind than all the disquisitions of philo ophers, and all the exhortations of moralists. 23"

 

[Alan Dale Gross]

I have noticed that Reformed groups avoid "invitations" and most folks have a vague idea of when it was they were saved. And honestly, even in fundamentalist groups, if you are raised in a good church it is quite possible to have a vague idea of exactly when you were truly saved, just because you don't have a past to look back on when you were not saved. I don't know how PB's handle this and would like to hear from some of them.

Just some thoughts of interest from this portion of this article,

Why You Should​

Trust the New Testament:​

Reasons for Reliability​

Author:
Benjamin Shaw

"Spiritual and Life Transformation."

"Spiritual or life transformations will undoubtedly strike many as an odd inclusion for the reliability of the NT."

"Indeed, I am not arguing that the NT is trustworthy simply because lives have been changed from reading it. Rather, that transformed lives are consistent with NT teachings."

"To put it another way, if the NT teachings were true and Jesus was who He said He was, made comments about the existence of the church, the role of the Holy Spirit in the lives of believers, and so on, then it would be very strange indeed if lives were not transformed.17"

"Believers have often testified as to how the NT has directly impacted them personally. Many of us can think of well-known believers who have had such experiences (e.g., Augustine) as well as people whom we have met in our own lives.18"

"In The Book That Made Your World, Vishal Mangalwadi points out that the Bible is not only something that we read and interpret, but it is also something that “interprets and evaluates us.”19 The conviction one may experience while reading the Sermon on the Mount or reflecting on its truths.20"

"Nonbelievers have also recognized the transformation of others even if they are not necessarily transformed themselves. One may note that there has been an increase in language referring to “cultural Christians” (language used by even Richard Dawkins lately 21).

"Others similarly appreciate the values and foundations of Christianity even if they do not or have not (yet) decided to follow Jesus.22 Here we may simply note William Lecky’s famous comment:"

"It was reserved for Christianity to present to the world an ideal character, which through all the changes of eighteen centuries has inspired the hearts of men with an impassioned love; has shown itself capable of acting on all ages, nations, temperaments, and conditions; has been not only the highest pattern of virtue but the strongest incentive to its practice; and has exercised so deep an influence that it may be truly said that the simple record of three short years of active life has done more to regenerate and to soften mankind than all the disquisitions of philo ophers, and all the exhortations of moralists. 23"

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

People who are sure they have been born again
are promised (in the NT) that they will gain heaven.

People who are sure they have been born again
are promised (in the NT) that they will gain heaven.

Scripture please

 

[Alan Dale Gross]

People who are sure they have been born again
are promised (in the NT) that they will gain heaven.

Scripture please

"How can I be sure that my faith is a genuine and saving one?

"The answer is, Test it. Make certain that it is the, “faith of God’s elect” (Titus 1:1). Ascertain whether or not your faith is accompanied with those fruits which are inseparable from a God-given and Spirit-wrought faith.

"Probably many are ready to say, There is no need for me to be put to any such trouble; I know that my faith is a saving one, for I am resting on the finished work of Christ. But dear friend, it is foolish to talk like that. God Himself bids His people to make their “calling and election sure” (2 Peter 1:10). Is that a needless exhortation? O pit not your vain confidence against Divine wisdom.

"It is Satan who is striving so hard to keep many from this very task, lest they discover that their house is built on sand. There is hope for one who discovers his illusion, but there is none for those who go on believing the Devil’s lie, and rest content with the very real but false peace which he gives to so many of his poor victims.

"God Himself has supplied us with tests, and we are mad if we do not avail ourselves of them, and honestly measure ourselves by them. “These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God, that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe (more intelligently) on the name of the Son of God” (1 John 5:13).

"The Holy Spirit Himself moved one of His servants to write a whole Epistle to instruct as how we might know whether or not we have eternal life. Does that look as though the question may be determined and settled as easily as so many present-day preachers and writers represent it? If nothing more than a firm persuasion of the truth of John 3:16 or 5:24 be needed to assure me of my salvation, then why did God give a whole Epistle to instruct us on this subject?

"Let the really concerned soul read slowly and thoughtfully through this first Epistle of John, and let him duly observe that not once in its five chapters are we told, “We know that we have passed from death unto life because we are resting on the finished work of Christ.” The total absence of such a statement ought, surely, to convince us that something must be radically wrong with so much of the popular teaching of the day on this subject.

"But not only is there no such declaration made in this Epistle, the very first passage which contains the familiar “we know” is quite the reverse of what is now being so widely advocated as the ground of Christian assurance. “And hereby we do know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments” (1 John 2:3). Is not that plain enough? A godly life is the first proof that I am a child of God."

From: http://sovereigngrace.ddns.net:81/Assurance1-Pink.html

 

[Dougcho]

Scripture please

I'd be happy to send you a NT
and you can read the dozens
of these verses for yourself.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

If you haven’t specifically studied Andrew Fuller, especially with what he did to the entire Baptist movement, then you are really missing a critical piece of the puzzle and you need to hop to it and discover how this guy attempted to change doctrine, operating procedures etc…. I consider him like a Soviet mole weaseling his way through scripture and disrupting much.

I have specifically studied Fuller, and faced with a choice between John Gill and Andrew Fuller, I choose Fuller. He saved the Baptists from hyper-Calvinism and was a prime mover in the Baptist Missionary Society.
The Gospel is undoubtedly "Worthy of all Acceptance."

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Quotation from Andrew Fuller:
I believe it is the duty of every minister of Christ plainly and faithfully to preach the gospel to all who will hear it; and as I believe the inability of man to be wholly of the moral, and therefore of the criminal kind, and that it is their duty to love the Lord Jesus Christ and to trust in him for salvation though they do not; I therefore believe free and solemn addresses, invitations, calls and warnings to them to be not only consistent, but directly adapted,as means, in the hand of the Spirit of God, to bring them to Christ. I consider it part of my duty which I could not omit without being guilty of the blood of souls.
[from John Ryland: Life and death of the Reverend Andrew Fuller. 1816]

 

[kyredneck]

I choose Fuller.

Yea, I asked you one time, "Do slacking soul-winners result in more people going to hell?", and I don't think I ever got a definitive answer from you.

being guilty of the blood of souls.

What a marvelous day when I was released from the horrendous lie that something I could say or do, or fail to say or do, could result in someone spending infinity in torment. Keep your Fullerism, I'll never return to it.

 

[DaveXR650]

The Gospel is undoubtedly "Worthy of all Acceptance."

And his book is worthy of reading. And free online.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I have specifically studied Fuller, and faced with a choice between John Gill and Andrew Fuller, I choose Fuller. He saved the Baptists from hyper-Calvinism and was a prime mover in the Baptist Missionary Society.
The Gospel is undoubtedly "Worthy of all Acceptance."

I disagree and would not support his views if my life depended on it.