My thoughts and questions on "Ten Reasons Primitive Baptists Are Not Calvinists."

[DaveXR650]

Primitive Baptists believe in the Triune God, i.e., that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are three, yet one, and equal in power. They are effectual in the eternal salvation of all of those chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world.



The Primitive Baptist people differ from all others in their belief regarding eternal salvation. There can be no doubt that all people need salvation. The Bible refers to the dead in trespasses and sins; yet there are no degrees of death. None are willing or able to save themselves from this lost and ruined condition. Rather, in God's eternal love, He chose, elected, and predestinated the eternal salvation of multi-millions of persons. Only God knows the number and yet their particular names were recorded in Heaven before God created the world. "According as He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world," (Eph. 1:4.)



Jesus came to earth, suffered and died for those chosen ones, and redeemed them from the awful curse of sin. The Holy Spirit calls, regenerates, and gives the New Birth, sometime during their life on earth. The Holy Spirit is always effectual, calling all of God's chosen people wherever they may be, regardless of whether they have heard the Gospel or read the Bible.

Nothing in what you said would differentiate you from a Calvinist at the strong end of the spectrum. Being chosen from the foundation of the world doesn't necessarily mean justified from the foundation of the world but even if you mean that you are on board with hyper-Calvinists. I understand the differences there would be in the use of covenant theology, the use of means for salvation, and of course the bane of Calvinism, infant baptism but just on what you said you would be welcome in any Reformed Baptist church if you could stand the music. Just bring ear plugs.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Nothing in what you said would differentiate you from a Calvinist at the strong end of the spectrum. Being chosen from the foundation of the world doesn't necessarily mean justified from the foundation of the world but even if you mean that you are on board with hyper-Calvinists. I understand the differences there would be in the use of covenant theology, the use of means for salvation, and of course the bane of Calvinism, infant baptism but just on what you said you would be welcome in any Reformed Baptist church if you could stand the music. Just bring ear plugs.

No thanks…. I’m busy with planting PB Churches in NJ and with the sorry state of churches here …ie apostate, we can emerge as a very serious contender for those serious about their church faith. And you forgot about predestination. We do not believe in predestination of all things…..were you aware of that? If not, you haven’t been paying attention.

 

[DaveXR650]

. And you forgot about predestination.

No. I was responding to your post in which you chose not to bring it up. Therefore I assumed it was not a big deal with you. I guess that difference would be because you believe the elect are already justified, without the use of means and without a specific time of coming to Christ. That would certainly make it unnecessary to have any predestination of all things because the means and situations involved in the salvation of a person don't matter.

I reject any theology that does not have a true offer of the gospel to everyone who hears it. Any such theology is fatally flawed in my opinion. From what I have learned so far regular Calvinism, short of hyper-Calvinism, no matter how much they emphasize election and the inability of a person on their own to come to faith , as long as they allow for an actual coming to Christ by faith, and as long as they allow for self examination regarding whether a person has saving faith is acceptable to me. But any system that disregards the idea of coming to Christ and the human responsibility to look at yourself and hopefully have the Holy Spirit show you that you have done so - is a false gospel.

Now, the church that sponsored the link I was reading was PB and seemed to indicate in it's own beliefs that they do indeed evaluate their election by observing their works and conduct and if so, then good. But any system that encourages people to assume they are elect because they just think so, or if they are putting their faith in the fact that they have decided they are indeed elect - in my opinion has a theology that is at best going to confuse people and at worse is a false teaching.

I like Fuller because like I said, I reject any theological system without a free and true offer of the gospel to everyone who hears it. Except for name calling I haven't seen any argument against what he said. I got much of the same idea from other sources as concerning the idea of a free offer, whether it be the Marrow controversy or even from the preaching of Owen and Edwards, all of who predate Fuller. I don't know what other denominational problems he caused and I'll leave that to you. For all I know he might have been a real pain but he was right on the offer of the gospel and if the PB's don't believe that they are wrong.

 

[37818]

1 John 2:2, . . . the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

1 Timothy 2:3-6, For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jess; Who gave himself a ransom for all, . . .

Romans 1:16, . . . of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . .

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

1 John 2:2, . . . the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

1 Timothy 2:3-6, For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jess; Who gave himself a ransom for all, . . .

Romans 1:16, . . . of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . .

What do you mean by the whole world? And what do you mean by all men? Does that mean women are not included? And how can you believe in Christ while you are dead in sin? These are questions that have been asked forever…. But never addressed. So here we go again….a gospel duel.You blah blah yours and I respond with mine LoL. Do you really believe this gets us anywhere? Forever and an on…please.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

In final commentary, every child of God will obey the effectual call of Christ. With men its impossible by with God, all things are possible.

 

[37818]

What do you mean by the whole world?

. . . και περι ολου του κοσμου
I understand to mean,
The whole of mankind.
John 3:16.

And what do you mean by all men?

Same, what it says it says.
Give me the translation you use.

Does that mean women are not included?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

. . . και περι ολου του κοσμου
I understand to mean,
The whole of mankind.
John 3:16.


Same, what it says it says.
Give me the translation you use.

Taken from SOME Q&A ABOUT PB’s

WHAT IS YOUR INTERPRETATION OF JOHN 3:16?



The word world is derived from the root word kosmos, which means a particular order of persons. Where there is more than one order of persons there is more than one world. The word world in John 3:16 is the same as in I John 2:2. "And he is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world." This is the "world" that God so loved. Esau could not have belonged to this world because it is written, "but Esau have I hated." Jacob did not belong to the world of Esau for God said of him, "Jacob have I loved" (Romans 9:13). The "world" in John 3:16 embraces the elect world of God. Jesus said, "I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me, for they are thine" (John 17:9). There must have been more than one world, one for which Jesus did not pray. Jesus prayed for the "elect world" for He said, "And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them" (John 17:10). Jesus Christ is glorified in every one born into the elect world. God loved this world so much "that he gave his only begotten Son," and He did so "that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." "Whosoever believeth" is not a condition to be met in order to obtain eternal life. "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life" (John 5:24). "Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God" (I John 5:1a). "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand" (John 10:27,28). If God had loved all of theworld (everyone) so much that He sent Jesus to die for them all, none would be lost. All that Jesus died to redeem will be finally saved and none will be lost. This is why it is certain that Jesus died for only the elect world.



Jesus spoke the words of John 3:16 to Nicodemus, a Jew and a teacher of Jews. Its meaning is seen in the light of Jewish thinking. For example, the Jews thought of the Messiah as coming only to Israel and as a Saviour only for Israelites. Jesus is here revealing to Nicodemus the fact that God loves Gentiles as well as Jews. A Jew looked upon people as belonging to one of two groups: Jews, or the world (Gentiles - the worldly). In the Sermon on the Mount Jesus spoke of the Gentiles seeking after material things. When Luke recorded this same statement in his Gospel he identified them as "the nations of the world." (Compare Matthew 6:31,32 with Luke 12:29,30.) Jesus taught Nicodemus the enlarged view of God's love - a view that reveals His love for the Gentiles as well as for the Jews. This, no doubt, was a strange and new thought to Nicodemus; but it showed that God's love was not confined geographically to Palestine or to the nation of Jews.



Paul used the term's world and Gentile interchangeably. In Romans 11:12, both of these terms refer to the same people - Gentiles. "Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fullness?"



It took a Divine revelation for Peter to learn this same fact - that God is no respecter of persons by geography, race, etc. in bestowing His love. (See Acts 10, especially verses 13-17; 34-35; 44-47.) In truth, John 3:16 supports the idea of Revelation 5:9, that Jesus hath "redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation."



John 3:16 presents this enlarged view of God's love as demonstrated by the fact that He gave His only Son as the seal of that love. It further gives an assurance of that love - belief. Belief is an assurance of eternal life, not the means by which it is secured. John declared in one of his epistles, "Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God" (I John 5:1). Belief is a product of the new birth, the evidence of God's love and the assurance of eternal life.

 

[37818]

@Earth Wind and Fire,
Faith precedes regeneration,
Ephesians 1:12-13, That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, . . .

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I personally did not have that experience. I was raised Roman Catholic, devoid of any faith but my own talent for deception and evil. I was a functioning atheist, worse I had decided to give my life over to sin and evil because I could make allot of money that way. I had no interest in Christ, religion, God etc. the only faith I had is in my own ability to lie, cheat, steal and murder. Drug trafficking, gaming and loan sharking were of particular interest to me, so I don’t see how faith could have ever been my motivation to do anything.

My mother was a widow with three kids to support and my sister was severely handicapped with cerebral palsy and my mother had to take care of her all the time for her to survive. Then there was my little brother to care for…Needless to say, there was exhaustion, depression, poverty, sickness and whatever came with a family in distress so you got to be kidding me with this faith crapola. We survived by my hardness and strength of character… I never thought about God because he didn’t exist, so I ask you how did I grow into a Child of God instead of a street criminal completely devoid of God?

 

[5 point Gillinist]

Oh I have no doubt that I will be there as I know whom I have trusted in but since you never did trust in Christ but had to be given your faith well what can I say. Hope your there but...

What an ugly thing to say. No one would hold it against you if you repented of that.

 

[5 point Gillinist]

@Silverhair
I wasn’t questioning whether you’d be there, I was implying you’d be shocked during [oxymoron alert] ‘the first two weeks of heaven’.

That was quite an odd statement from a man who would object to Calvinism because it makes God "unloving."

 

[Silverhair]

What an ugly thing to say. No one would hold it against you if you repented of that.

Are you saying that calvinists do not say that God has to give them faith to believe? So no need to repent when I just point out what they believe.

 

[David Lamb]

Are you saying that calvinists do not say that God has to give them faith to believe? So no need to repent when I just point out what they believe.

But that is not all you said, You wrote: "but since you never did trust in Christ but had to be given your faith well what can I say." So you not only said that Calvinists believe that God gave them faith, you said that the poster you were re[plying to had never trusted Christ. Calvinists/people who believe in the doctrines of grace do indeed believe that their faith is given to them by God, but they certainly don't believe that they don't need to trust in Christ. Why would they need faith at all if that were the case? You misrepresented the beliefs of many here.

 

[5 point Gillinist]

Are you saying that calvinists do not say that God has to give them faith to believe? So no need to repent when I just point out what they believe.

No, I'm saying that you are guilty of slander in regards to what we hold to, accusing a brother of not being saved, and making a very ugly/prideful statement akin to "I'll be in heaven, whether you are or not makes no difference to me." Repentance is appropriate. I'm surprised that mods didn't jump on that, since I've seen them jump on far less. And you should be ashamed of your comments.

 

[Silverhair]

But that is not all you said, You wrote: "but since you never did trust in Christ but had to be given your faith well what can I say." So you not only said that Calvinists believe that God gave them faith, you said that the poster you were re[plying to had never trusted Christ. Calvinists/people who believe in the doctrines of grace do indeed believe that their faith is given to them by God, but they certainly don't believe that they don't need to trust in Christ. Why would they need faith at all if that were the case? You misrepresented the beliefs of many here.

I stated just what any honest calvinist would say. They were saved prior to them having any faith as God had to give them the faith they claim to have after they were saved. Am I wrong it that?

Loraine Boettner
"A man is not saved because he believes in Christ, he believes in Christ because he is saved.

 

[DaveXR650]

@5 point Gillinist and @David Lamb
Did you read the article that was linked to:

The Evangelical Liberalism​

of Andrew Fuller.​

It's pretty nasty too. Not that @Silverhair would agree with Fuller either but I'm just saying that he doesn't have a monopoly on getting carried away.
"This writer believes that Fullerism is the work of the serpent itself in it's own soul piercing scales and is the greatest heresy that ever strove to corrupt The Bride of Christ from within her retinue."

That describes most of Calvinism, even in his days, as he said in his article.

 

[DaveXR650]

I stated just what any honest calvinist would say. They were saved prior to them having any faith as God had to give them the faith they claim to have after they were saved. Am I wrong it that?

You are not wrong. Although if you look into what the Calvinists who also preached to people you find in many a concept of invitation to come to Christ which would be quite familiar to you. Like all groups of people we constantly tend to drift and in Calvinism there is always rising up men like Fuller, the Marrow Men, Arminius, Baxter and Wesley who find that the metaphysics of strict, deterministic Calvinism needs some nuance.

So we divide up and throw bombs and pronounce curses on each other

 

[Silverhair]

No, I'm saying that you are guilty of slander in regards to what we hold to, accusing a brother of not being saved, and making a very ugly/prideful statement akin to "I'll be in heaven, whether you are or not makes no difference to me." Repentance is appropriate. I'm surprised that mods didn't jump on that, since I've seen them jump on far less. And you should be ashamed of your comments.

If one has to be given faith can they really call it their faith? Calvinists pride themselves on thinking they were chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world. If they were in fact chosen before the foundation of the world then they would be saved prior to having faith as the only ones in Christ are those that believe.

I find it odd that calvinists get so upset when the factual errors of their theology are pointed out to them.

And further to to your akin to comment, I continue to point out the errors in the calvinist view because I do want all to know the truth so as to be saved.

Calvinists seem to have no problem when they question non-calvinists faith

 

[5 point Gillinist]

If one has to be given faith can they really call it their faith? Calvinists pride themselves on thinking they were chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world. If they were in fact chosen before the foundation of the world then they would be saved prior to having faith as the only ones in Christ are those that believe.

I find it odd that calvinists get so upset when the factual errors of their theology are pointed out to them.

And further to to your akin to comment, I continue to point out the errors in the calvinist view because I do want all to know the truth so as to be saved.

Calvinists seem to have no problem when they question non-calvinists faith

Being chosen before the foundation of the earth ( as the Bible says ), and being given faith do not equate to "you never have to trust in God." No one holding to the calvinistic view in this thread has exemplified pride in holding to election, the only pride I have seen is from you.

I'm not upset by so-called errors, because you haven't pointed out any, you've simply concocted in your mind what you think it is we believe. What irritates me is questioning a brother's salvation because he doesn't believe what you believe, which is what YOU did.

Again, you've pointed out no errors, but you have displayed great pride in what you believe to be the truth, which you oddly accuse Calvinists of doing. I couldn't tell from your comment that you wanted anyone to be saved, and your subsequent comments exemplify your ongoing dishonesty. Oddly enough, it is the prideful Calvinists I see being more fervent in evangelism, as opposed to the non-calvinists.