Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Do you doubt that God actually uses various means such as, pangs of conscience, creation or the gospel message, to draw use to Himself?Indeed.
The question you have to answer is when does this happen, before or after one has trusted in Him.Yes. As I said, there must be a moment when one moves from death to life.
So God desires all to be saved and are you suggesting that the many we see spoken of in Mar 10:45 are not part of the “all” that God desires to save? The many of Mar 10:45 are those that actually freely choose to trust in God. As you wrote “none of them will be redeemed without repenting and trusting in Christ for salvation.”The first one that comes to mind is Mark 10:45, but there are several others.
So you say He wants to save a vast number/many but you disagree that He desires to save all? Have I got that right? FYI even those of those various groups that you listed are only given to the Son by the Father if they believe.
You really are reaching for support when you use Ezr 6:10 to support your view, that is a sign of real desperation on your part.I think you are doing that, and it shows when you carefully miss out 1 Tim. 2:2. Paul calls us to be specific in our prayers (c.f. Ezra 6:10). Whenever I lead prayers at my church, I pray for the king and also the Prime Minister and the Cabinet and various member of Parliament. I don't pray for the Emperor of Japan or for ex-king Zog of Albania, because I don't know anything about them.
1 Tim. 6:10, KJV says, 'For the love of money is the root of all evil.' That is a pretty accurate translation, but the fact is that the love of money is not the root of every single kind of evil. Sexual sins, for example, are not usually motivated by love of money. Therefore, almost all the modern translations say that 'The love of money is a root of all kinds of evil' (e.g. NKJV)
It is sad that you as a prayer leader think that you should not pray for all the world to come to faith in Christ Jesus. Do you never pray for the lost in general or only for those you can name?
Now I would say we should take our lead from scripture don’t you?
Joh 17:20 I am not asking on behalf of them alone, but also on behalf of those who will believe in Me through their message,
Rom 10:1 Brothers, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for the Israelites is for their salvation.
If Jesus and Paul though it was good to pray for lost peoples of this world should we do any less?
So I have to ask how were you saved? Just earlier in your post you said “none of them will be redeemed without repenting and trusting in Christ for salvation.” So you are saying you have to work for your salvation. But the bible says we do not have to work but just believe. Eph 1:13, Rom 10:9-10 are quite clear.If salvation depends upon me making a decision, then I am saved by works. It's all about me, not God.
Paul stated it clearly that faith and works are polar opposites.
Gal 2:16 know that a man is not justified by works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.
Eph 2:8-9 is clear as it gets
We are saved by grace through faith not by works so no one can boast
So the fact you continue to equate faith with works just shows you do not understand or trust scripture.
Bottom line, if you do not believe then you will not be saved. Now if you have a problem with thaty then you have a problem with God as He is the one that set the condition. Joh 3:16
God has provided the means but He does not force anyone to trust in Him. You seem to think that God has to make people come to Him which leads me to conclude that you really do not understand scripture.
You can keep saying there is a general or effectual call until the cows come home but it will not make it true. God makes the same invitation to all mankind, trust in ME for your salvation.Yes He does. But you are right, Einstein, that "Repent" is a command, and it is the Lord Jesus Christ who commands so it is man's duty to obey.
But no one will unless God irresistibly draws him (John 6:44 etc., etc.). This is not because God prevents people from repenting, but because they have wicked, unbelieving hearts
Joh 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.
Joh 6:45 "It is written in the prophets, 'AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.
How convenient of you to leave out the part where those that have heard and learned are the ones that come to the Father. Free will right there in the text. Eph 1:13, Rom 10:9-10 etc etc.