My thoughts and questions on "Ten Reasons Primitive Baptists Are Not Calvinists."

[Silverhair]

Indeed.

Do you doubt that God actually uses various means such as, pangs of conscience, creation or the gospel message, to draw use to Himself?

Yes. As I said, there must be a moment when one moves from death to life.

The question you have to answer is when does this happen, before or after one has trusted in Him.

The first one that comes to mind is Mark 10:45, but there are several others.

So God desires all to be saved and are you suggesting that the many we see spoken of in Mar 10:45 are not part of the “all” that God desires to save? The many of Mar 10:45 are those that actually freely choose to trust in God. As you wrote “none of them will be redeemed without repenting and trusting in Christ for salvation.”

So you say He wants to save a vast number/many but you disagree that He desires to save all? Have I got that right? FYI even those of those various groups that you listed are only given to the Son by the Father if they believe.

I think you are doing that, and it shows when you carefully miss out 1 Tim. 2:2. Paul calls us to be specific in our prayers (c.f. Ezra 6:10). Whenever I lead prayers at my church, I pray for the king and also the Prime Minister and the Cabinet and various member of Parliament. I don't pray for the Emperor of Japan or for ex-king Zog of Albania, because I don't know anything about them.
1 Tim. 6:10, KJV says, 'For the love of money is the root of all evil.' That is a pretty accurate translation, but the fact is that the love of money is not the root of every single kind of evil. Sexual sins, for example, are not usually motivated by love of money. Therefore, almost all the modern translations say that 'The love of money is a root of all kinds of evil' (e.g. NKJV)

You really are reaching for support when you use Ezr 6:10 to support your view, that is a sign of real desperation on your part.

It is sad that you as a prayer leader think that you should not pray for all the world to come to faith in Christ Jesus. Do you never pray for the lost in general or only for those you can name?

Now I would say we should take our lead from scripture don’t you?

Joh 17:20 I am not asking on behalf of them alone, but also on behalf of those who will believe in Me through their message,

Rom 10:1 Brothers, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for the Israelites is for their salvation.

If Jesus and Paul though it was good to pray for lost peoples of this world should we do any less?

If salvation depends upon me making a decision, then I am saved by works. It's all about me, not God.

So I have to ask how were you saved? Just earlier in your post you said “none of them will be redeemed without repenting and trusting in Christ for salvation.” So you are saying you have to work for your salvation. But the bible says we do not have to work but just believe. Eph 1:13, Rom 10:9-10 are quite clear.

Paul stated it clearly that faith and works are polar opposites.

Gal 2:16 know that a man is not justified by works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.

Eph 2:8-9 is clear as it gets

We are saved by grace through faith not by works so no one can boast

So the fact you continue to equate faith with works just shows you do not understand or trust scripture.

Bottom line, if you do not believe then you will not be saved. Now if you have a problem with thaty then you have a problem with God as He is the one that set the condition. Joh 3:16

God has provided the means but He does not force anyone to trust in Him. You seem to think that God has to make people come to Him which leads me to conclude that you really do not understand scripture.

Yes He does. But you are right, Einstein, that "Repent" is a command, and it is the Lord Jesus Christ who commands so it is man's duty to obey.
But no one will unless God irresistibly draws him (John 6:44 etc., etc.). This is not because God prevents people from repenting, but because they have wicked, unbelieving hearts

You can keep saying there is a general or effectual call until the cows come home but it will not make it true. God makes the same invitation to all mankind, trust in ME for your salvation.

Joh 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.
Joh 6:45 "It is written in the prophets, 'AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.

How convenient of you to leave out the part where those that have heard and learned are the ones that come to the Father. Free will right there in the text. Eph 1:13, Rom 10:9-10 etc etc.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Do you doubt that God actually uses various means such as, pangs of conscience, creation or the gospel message, to draw use to Himself?

The question you have to answer is when does this happen, before or after one has trusted in Him.

So God desires all to be saved and are you suggesting that the many we see spoken of in Mar 10:45 are not part of the “all” that God desires to save? The many of Mar 10:45 are those that actually freely choose to trust in God. As you wrote “none of them will be redeemed without repenting and trusting in Christ for salvation.”

So you say He wants to save a vast number/many but you disagree that He desires to save all? Have I got that right? FYI even those of those various groups that you listed are only given to the Son by the Father if they believe.

You really are reaching for support when you use Ezr 6:10 to support your view, that is a sign of real desperation on your part.

It is sad that you as a prayer leader think that you should not pray for all the world to come to faith in Christ Jesus. Do you never pray for the lost in general or only for those you can name?

Now I would say we should take our lead from scripture don’t you?

Joh 17:20 I am not asking on behalf of them alone, but also on behalf of those who will believe in Me through their message,

Rom 10:1 Brothers, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for the Israelites is for their salvation.

If Jesus and Paul though it was good to pray for lost peoples of this world should we do any less?

So I have to ask how were you saved? Just earlier in your post you said “none of them will be redeemed without repenting and trusting in Christ for salvation.” So you are saying you have to work for your salvation. But the bible says we do not have to work but just believe. Eph 1:13, Rom 10:9-10 are quite clear.

Paul stated it clearly that faith and works are polar opposites.

Gal 2:16 know that a man is not justified by works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.

Eph 2:8-9 is clear as it gets

We are saved by grace through faith not by works so no one can boast

So the fact you continue to equate faith with works just shows you do not understand or trust scripture.

Bottom line, if you do not believe then you will not be saved. Now if you have a problem with thaty then you have a problem with God as He is the one that set the condition. Joh 3:16

God has provided the means but He does not force anyone to trust in Him. You seem to think that God has to make people come to Him which leads me to conclude that you really do not understand scripture.


You can keep saying there is a general or effectual call until the cows come home but it will not make it true. God makes the same invitation to all mankind, trust in ME for your salvation.

Joh 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.
Joh 6:45 "It is written in the prophets, 'AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.

How convenient of you to leave out the part where those that have heard and learned are the ones that come to the Father. Free will right there in the text. Eph 1:13, Rom 10:9-10 etc etc.

Yes… how convenient LOL

 

[ParticularWife]

The original split occurred in the previous century between the Gillites and Fullerites. PBs are basically Gillites who hold to Justification from Eternity, while Fullerites hold to 'Duty Faith', and consider Gillites to be a "dunghill of high Calvinism".

I am not a Primitive Baptist, but I agree with their rejection if Landmarkism: specifically, the exclusivity of Baptists as the only true church. I am also a High Calvinist, though I am nowhere near as obsessed with Predestination as people who deny it. And while I believe the gospel is only effectual for the Elect, it's not my business to distinguish. I am also a high church, pro-seminary Baptist so I may be distinct from the Primitives and Hard Shell in that respect.
I'm not trying to argue with anyone, I just find it interesting because I am definitely a Gillite, but also have direct influence from Herman Hoeksema: I'm a high Calvinist from both sides of the fence.

 

[37818]

Biblical election is post it's calling. And yes, the elect's choosing is before the foundation of the world per Ephesians 1:4. And yes, I believe in conditional election. 2 Peter 1:10.

 

[kyredneck]

I am nowhere near as obsessed with Predestination as people who deny it.

That’s pretty much the norm.

 

[Jesus Saves!]

When I saw this I thought "man, this is a big problem". But then you put up this:

And I agree with you. The question of how do you know you are a believer or how do you know you are elect or how do you know you are saved seems to be an issue.

I wasn't sure which group you are referring to but you have a point. I have noticed that Reformed groups avoid "invitations" and most folks have a vague idea of when it was they were saved. And honestly, even in fundamentalist groups, if you are raised in a good church it is quite possible to have a vague idea of exactly when you were truly saved, just because you don't have a past to look back on when you were not saved. I don't know how PB's handle this and would like to hear from some of them.

I think there is a problem with relying on looking back at a time when you "went forward" or said a prayer, if that is all you are willing to look at. (I am not against public invitations or praying a prayer.) But reformed groups seem to rely on infant baptism, and/or a "confirmation" at a certain age if they are heavy on covenant theology or like the Puritans, they get into looking for assurance or proof they have been born again.

It seems like we always are in danger of going off the deep end either way. We want a "thing" or event we can cling to, or we set up a system of discovering assurance that can become legalistic. What do Primitive Baptists say about this that is different than what a Reformed Baptist would say?

As I was reading through these post, this scripture came to me. I’m glad we can know!

1 John 5:10-13 KJVS
He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. [11] And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. [12] He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. [13] These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

 

[ParticularWife]

That’s pretty much the norm.

Salvation is by faith in the gospel, not by your church organization,, Theology, or political opinions, but that doesn't mean they're unrelated conditional. No one is saved by being super smart and knowing Scripture, for example, the devil. I am not smarter than our enemy, but praise be to our merciful God I don't have to be

 

[kyredneck]

Salvation is by faith in the gospel,

Yes. Saved from your former vain manner of life, NOT from hell, it cleans our conscience and saves us into The Kingdom. Jesus Christ abolished death, and brought life and immortality TO LIGHT THROUGH THE GOSPEL. The gospel does not impart eternal life, it instructs us in the way of it. If you truly are a ‘Gillite’, then you know this to be so.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Yes. Saved from your former vain manner of life, NOT from hell, it cleans our conscience and saves us into The Kingdom. Jesus Christ abolished death, and brought life and immortality TO LIGHT THROUGH THE GOSPEL. The gospel does not impart eternal life, it instructs us in the way of it. If you truly are a ‘Gillite’, then you know this to be so.

Agreed

 

[Brightfame52]

Biblical election is post it's calling. And yes, the elect's choosing is before the foundation of the world per Ephesians 1:4. And yes, I believe in conditional election. 2 Peter 1:10.

10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: So where does it say election is conditional in this scripture ?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Are you really trying to start an argument with them? Starting the year off right aren’t ya? LOL

 

[DaveXR650]

As I was reading through these post, this scripture came to me. I’m glad we can know!

1 John 5:10-13 KJVS
He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. [11] And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. [12] He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. [13] These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

Yes indeed. We were talking about assurance and that in the context of belief that you are one of the elect. There is a tendency of some on here to go so far in the concept of election that they act like belief that you are elect is what Christianity is all about. It's belief on Christ as your verses point out. But even then, the question is how do we know in our deceptive human hearts that we really believe? Well, the whole 1 John talks about that and so does what @37818 mentioned above, 2 Peter.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Yes indeed. We were talking about assurance and that in the context of belief that you are one of the elect. There is a tendency of some on here to go so far in the concept of election that they act like belief that you are elect is what Christianity is all about. It's belief on Christ as your verses point out. But even then, the question is how do we know in our deceptive human hearts that we really believe? Well, the whole 1 John talks about that and so does what @37818 mentioned above, 2 Peter.

You know because there is a metamorphosis in your life…a conscious understanding of things that prior to that were unimportant, you grow a conscience where there once was none. I guess what I’m saying is you grow up…and you’re not so driven by the goals set upon you by the world. These things happened to me… I don’t drink now, chance women.. even really desire them and I make conscious choices about what God wills for my life vs what I want in life. Oh and that angry guy that faufgt with his fist and his mouth, probably just spoiling for a fight at every turn has disappeared…I just laugh now and walk away. Doesn’t mean that I’m cured rather it’s a work in progress.

 

[37818]

So where does it say election is conditional in this scripture ?

The calling comes before election. But not all who are called are elect.
Matthew 22:14, For many are called, but few are chosen [elect].

See Romans 9:11, for* the children were not yet born, nor had practiced anything good or evil, in-order-that the purpose of God according-to his choice [election] might abide, not from works, but from the one who is calling.

 

[37818]

So where does it say election is conditional in this scripture ?

The calling comes before election. But not all who are called are elect
Matthew 22:14, For many are called, but few are chosen [elect].

See Romans 9:11, for* the children were not yet born, nor had practiced anything good or evil, in-order-that the purpose of God according-to his choice [election] might abide, not from works, but from the one who is calling.

 

[Brightfame52]

The calling comes before election. But not all who are called are elect.
Matthew 22:14, For many are called, but few are chosen [elect].

See Romans 9:11, for* the children were not yet born, nor had practiced anything good or evil, in-order-that the purpose of God according-to his choice [election] might abide, not from works, but from the one who is calling.

So where does it say election is conditional in those scriptures ?

 

[Brightfame52]

The calling comes before election. But not all who are called are elect
Matthew 22:14, For many are called, but few are chosen [elect].

See Romans 9:11, for* the children were not yet born, nor had practiced anything good or evil, in-order-that the purpose of God according-to his choice [election] might abide, not from works, but from the one who is calling.

So where does it say election is conditional in these scriptures ?

 

[DaveXR650]

The calling comes before election. But not all who are called are elect.
Matthew 22:14, For many are called, but few are chosen [elect].

Personally I think election comes first because that is way back, like in the very beginning. The call comes at some point in an individuals life.

So where does it say election is conditional in these scriptures ?

I agree it's not conditional as in some thing found in us or some virtue that merits God's electing grace. But faith or belief is conditional for salvation in the sense that it is always found where salvation is found. No belief - no salvation. Even if you believe faith is completely a gift bestowed by God, still you have it where salvation occurs.

Do you know of any scriptures where election is contemplated except in the case of believers who need encouragement. I mean, wouldn't we all agree that you can tell a believer that he is elect. While it may be that someone is elect who doesn't yet believe still, isn't the thing for us and especially them to contemplate is that they don't believe? Once again, all the great Calvinist confessions state that your belief is what gives you reason to think you are elect. They cannot be separated.

 

[37818]

So where does it say election is conditional in those scriptures ?

A calling not to be by one's works being required is not a condition? Do you really think one can be elect for no reason at all?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

A calling not to be by one's works being required is not a condition? Do you really think one can be elect for no reason at all?

Whose reason , human reasoning or Gods reasioning?