NAME IT AND CLAIM IT?

[Mike McK]

Originally posted by av1611jim:
I would just like to see ONE WoF preacher enter a hospital and heal everybody in the children's ward! Just do it ONE time, please!

In HIS service;
Jim

Actually, Benny Hinn claims to have done something very similar.

In his book, "Good Morning, Holy Spirit", he claims to have held a healing service in a hospital in Sault St. Marie, in which the Spirit of God was supposedly so powerful that all of the patients and even people who happened to be just walking past the hospital were healed.

Just one problem: it never happened. When investigators checked it out, it turns out that no one at the hospital remembered such an incident and only one person had ever even heard of Benny Hinn.

Even more damning, it was a Catholic run hospital so the archbishop of that dioscese would have to have granted Hinn special permission to preach there. According to the archbishop's office, nothing like that ever took place.

The whole incident is covered in great detail in the book, "The Confusing World of Benny Hinn".

 

[Mike McK]

Originally posted by Hotwheels:
AMEN!!!

My favoit is when they preach a revival and the pastors leg is broke ha ha ha

or better yet they cancal a show because they get sick lol

Did you know that there are three documented cases of someone going to a Benny Hinn show to be prayed for and then dying?

 

[Terry_Herrington]

Originally posted by Mike McK:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Hotwheels:
AMEN!!!

My favoit is when they preach a revival and the pastors leg is broke ha ha ha

or better yet they cancal a show because they get sick lol

Did you know that there are three documented cases of someone going to a Benny Hinn show to be prayed for and then dying? </font>[/QUOTE]Unfortunately, Benny wasn't one of them!

 

[Mommyperson]

I came out of the catholic faith only to THINK I had God's word guarded closely.

I couldn't see past the wolves clothing UNTIL I had engaged in a study with them.
The truth shall be revealed, but by the time you see what has just happened, you've tripped.

I've been IN my bible for almost ten years now and I tripped. I THOUGHT I couldn't be deceived.

The bullseye was HUGE on my back.

Studying the word wasn't my wrong turn, recognizing what OTHER doctrines are being taught
was...Perhaps a little research about the wolves could help.
This has been TRULY an awakening experience..

MIKE, I'd like to hear about your experiences in this cult practice. How did I get sucked in? I thought (shows what I knew) I was prepared..

I didn't realize I had tossed such a huge topic into the ring...but I'm sure glad I did.

 

[Purple Lady]

What bothers me about them (and I had one living in my home - a lady Pastor!)

If we are not healed or have evertyhing all together, we don't have enough faith.

"Experiences" are more important than the Word of God. I am tired of hearing that I don't understand because I haven't had the "experience"

Thank you, I will stick with the Word and Truth.

 

[dianetavegia]

Going right along with Word of Faith is the Prayer of Jabez where you quote one minute line out of the O.T. and pretty much request God increase your stuff. I have major problems with that!

Here are two articles which talk about this 'fad'.

Problems with The Prayer of Jabez
by Berit Kjos
http://www.crossroad.to/articles2/Jabez.htm


Thoughts to Ponder: The Prayer of Jabez
http://www.behindthebadge.net/articles/a69.html

 

[Purple Lady]

Me too, Diane
Anything that is a "fad" done to extremes is just wrong. It's wrong motives here. If we really want to know the Lord, and are doing it to worship and praise Him, that is great. But anything we do for personal gain is sin.

 

[blackbird]

Then what about all those Warren books---Purpose Driven "This and That??"

I can "surf" church web pages that say

"We are purpose driven"

and

"We're looking for a purpose driven pastor"

etc

etc

But on the same web pages see nothing mentioned about expository preaching and its priority from the pulpit!!

Brother David

 

[av1611jim]

Amen Blackbird.
Ain't it strange that way? "Chruches" want a purpose driven this or that but no mention of right doctrine.
"Things that make you go...hmmm?"
In HIS service;
Jim

 

[av1611jim]

S/B Churches not cruches!

But for some maybe it IS chruches=crutches?
In HIS service;
Jim

 

[Mike McK]

Originally posted by Mommyperson:
MIKE, I'd like to hear about your experiences in this cult practice. How did I get sucked in? I thought (shows what I knew) I was prepared..

I didn't realize I had tossed such a huge topic into the ring...but I'm sure glad I did.

I hope you don't mind but this is a cut and paste of something I PM'd somebody with (to that person, I hope you don't mind my posting this publically). I was a little upset when I wrote it, so bear with me if it's a little disjointed.

As we join our hero, he is a new Christian, full of zeal and good intentions, but low on discernment and common sense.

I was convinced that, if the music made me feel good, then I was under the annointing of the Holy Spirit.

If the message made me feel good, then I was convicted.

Now, all I had to do was just speak in tongues and everything would be great.

One of the things I learned is that everybody in WoF carries a Bible but nobody reads them.

The Bible to a WoF'er is much different than it is to you and me.

The first thing is that WoF theology can be boiled down to about ten verses, tops, and even these are usually taken out of context.

You're really not encouraged to study the Bible at all.

Watch (but use great discernment) Hinn, Copeland, Dollar, Hickey, Price, or any of those guys on TV sometime and you will notice two things.

The first is that their sermons are all baseed around only one or two verses (if at all) and these are usually out of context. You'll also notice that they are nearly all anecdotal stories and never, ever expository preaching.

The second thing you'll notice (and, now that I'm a little further along in my walk with Christ, this one drives me insane) is that the Christ's death on the cross is never God's instrument of reconciliation to man, never the only hope of salvation, never the power of God unto those of us who are saved. It is always - and you can hold me to this- it is always the means of appropriating the power of God, which is WoF-speak, means to get rich.

You will never hear a WoFer preach the cross and repentance in the same sermon. In fact, I can't remember the last time I heard a WoF preacher preach about repentance at all.

In WoF teaching, the cross is just the key to God's riches.

Jesus is also different in WoF terminology (really, you have to approach WoF'ers in the same way you'd talk to a Mormon).

Many WoF teachers, including Hinn and Copeland, teach that Jesus on the cross actually took on a sin nature and, as such, had to pay for His sins in Hell before He could atone for ours.

Obviously, you and I know the Biblical argument against this blasphemy, but it also defies logic.

The two questions I always ask are: "What was God's standard for sacrifices" and "If Jesus could pay for His sins by suffering in Hell for three days, then why can't we"?

If they answer the first question by saying "perfection", which they usually will, then the conclusion is that Jesus is therefore an unnaceptable sacrifice and we're all in big trouble.

There are the little, goofy things like teaching that Adam could fly or that there are nine persons in the Godhead and things like that. But anytime I'm witnessing to someone, what works best for me is to keep it as close to the cross as I can.

I had a little fun with some WoFers once on Crosswalk.com. They were telling me how sad it is that people are decieved by Mormonism (and it is) but that their favorite WoF teachers are doing God's work.

I made a little list of Mormon teachings and Copeland's teachings and asked them to tell me which was which. They couldn't. Rather than being food for thought, they all got mad at me.

When I was going to World Harvest Christian Fellowship in Pennsauken, NJ, I drove an old jeep. It wasn't for lack of money to buy something else. I had money, I just wanted the jeep.

I was told that I didn't have faith and that I didn't represent God well because of the car I drove.

This was the prevailing attitude in the church. You could walk through the parking lot and there would be nothing but Caddilacs and Lincolns and expensive luxery cars (and my jeep). These people were all convinced that they would become rich by living like they were rich.

They were all convinced that the cars and the expensive suits meant that they were blessed by God but every one of these people were deep in debt to buy these things.

You just would not believe the mental and emotional games these guys play with their people.

One day, the pastor, Bob Palmer, said that he had prayed for a girl with a deformed leg and it grew back. Well, sure. Why Not? I had come this far so just about anything sounded plausible at this point.

He would say little things here and there that would make the Holy Spirit in me make me realize that something, even if I couldn't tell you what it was, was not right.

Finally, he told the congregation that the only way people were going to come to Christ would be when they see us growing back people's severed limbs and healing blind people.

I didn't know the Bible at all, but I kept thinking, "I don't think that's true. Isn't there something in the Bible about faith coming by hearing the word of God or something like that? And what was that thing Jesus said about a wicked and adulterous generation following after signs?"

I found these two verses and started reading them. You know how, in the movies, you hear the choir and the clouds roll back and the character has some great revelation? That is exactly what happened.

I started reading the Bible and it hit me: "This guy doesn't know what in the world he's talking about and I've been a fool for listening to him!"

All of my friends and my social life was at this church so I stayed there for a little while, even though the Holy Spirit had already started to try to get me out of there. He had even brought some old friends who were now strong Christians back into my life.

One day, I decided to confront him, respectfully and humbly.

I fought my way through the entourage (or, "The Merchantville Mafia", as I called them) and asked him how he reconciled his statement about people being saved by seeing miracles with the two verses I mentioned.

Then - and this is how I know it was the Holy Spirit. I simply did not know the Bible well enough to do this - I said, "didn't the angel tell the Rich Man when he wanted to warn his brothers, 'they have the law of Moses and the prophets. If they won't believe Moses and the prophets, what makes you think they'll believe a man come back from the dead'" (I'm paraphrasing here)? If that's true, then isn't it true in this case? Society already has God's word. If they won't believe God's word, then what makes you think they'll believe these miracles?

And what happened? I'll give you three guesses but you probably already know.

I was rebuked in the name of Jesus, the devil was bound and I was kicked out and asked not to come back. I was also shunned by everyone in the church, even my friends. I didn't even realize shunning still existed.

I don't believe that the last days are immenent but the Bible does say that there will be deception that enters the church in those days.

The more I look at this and the more I see otherwise well meaning Christians falling for this garbage, the more I'm convinced that this is that deception.

Can I make a suggestion? There is a group called the Trinity Foundation.

They're known mostly for putting out the religious satire magazine, "The Door", but in their day jobs, they actually are a serious ministry that keeps tabs on WoF teachers.

They have several good books for sale on their website. One that I would strongly reccomend to you is called, "The Confusing World of Benny Hinn". It's a scholarly and well researched book that details the bad teaching and bad behavior of Benny Hinn.

If I had the money, I'd send a copy of it to every pastor in the country and everyone on Hinn's mailing list.

If there's anything else you want to know or anything I can clarify for you, let me know.

 

[Ben W]

The Trinity foundation? Sounds like something I should have a look at!

 

[Saint]

Hi Mike - Thank you for your post. One thing I find very frustrating in regard to the WoFers is their stringent refusal to hear anything other than what they are taught in their "churches". When I try to talk to my sister she dismisses me. Is it that they are taught that to listen to any other Christian's view is to entertain a "negative confession" or being guilty of "not being in the faith"? I simply do not know how to reach her. I believe that prayer is the best source of power in this predicament.

I also have the same "suspicions" about the Prayer of Jabezz stuff and the "Purpose driven life" I get a lttle bent out of shape when people suggest that one read this or that book. How about reading the Word of God and letting that be the source of all Godly truth?!

 

[Mike McK]

Originally posted by Saint:
Hi Mike - Thank you for your post. One thing I find very frustrating in regard to the WoFers is their stringent refusal to hear anything other than what they are taught in their "churches".

You mean like anytime you try to ask her a question about what she believes, she immediately condemns you as a Hank Hannegraff fanatic?

I get that one all the time and I don't even listen to him.

When I try to talk to my sister she dismisses me. Is it that they are taught that to listen to any other Christian's view is to entertain a "negative confession" or being guilty of "not being in the faith"?

I think part of the problem is that we haven't done a very good job of reaching out to them. I think that they feel like they're being attacked and feel like they have to go on the defensive.

I don't think it's so much a matter of negative confession, but of simply being insecure in their faith because they haven't been properly discipled and now don't have a foundation for their faith.

I know this is what happened in my case and very nearly made me walk away from the faith altogether.

I simply do not know how to reach her.

The best thing you can do for her is to love her, pray for her and try to meet her where she's at. Find common ground and go from there.

If you discuss doctrine with her, just try to keep it as much about Jesus, His nature, the cross, and the nature of salvation.

The rest will follow soon enough.

I believe that prayer is the best source of power in this predicament.

Absolutely.

Prayer, discernment and knowing the word of God.

I also have the same "suspicions" about the Prayer of Jabezz stuff and the "Purpose driven life" I get a lttle bent out of shape when people suggest that one read this or that book. How about reading the Word of God and letting that be the source of all Godly truth?!

I have to be honest and say that I don't really know enough about "The Prayer of Jabezz" to comment on it. I'm aware of it (how could we not be? That's all I've heard about for the last four years) but I don't really know enough about it to say.

There are good books out there. God does use some of them to speak to us.

The real question is whether or not they're something that's worthy of our time.

The only thing that really bothers me about the "Jabezz" books and things like that is that I worry that we're dumbing doctrine down with pop-theology.

Everybody has or has read a Max Lucado book (and this isn't a shot at Max Lucado), but how often do you hear people talking about Spurgeon?

Instead of the "Prayer of Jabezz" or, God forbid, "Could You Not Tarry One Hour", how about "The Power of Prayer in a Believer's Life" by Spurgeon or Merton's "Contemplative Prayer"?

 

[Mommyperson]

WOW Mike!
What you walked through in the WOFers seems to be how I was walking in the Catholic church before I accepted the truth and asked the Lord to come into my heart and life.
I asked WHERE in the Bible it says we should pray to the saints (who are followers of God who witnessed Jesus'life and went forth spreading the gospel) I was told NOT to ask controversial questions such as this..it was demeaning to the church and blasphemous.

I've been EX communicated..and yes it still exists..so I THOUGHT I was prepared...I need more study time under my belt..thats evident..
But I AM in a good place to get the help I seek to understand better God's word.

 

[iride4jesus]

I had to bring a word to many in my flock about this nonsense. The bible is clear about the heretical teachings of false prophets. These lies will be exposed in time.
Pastor Jamie

 

[cindig2]

Does anyone think there are any main religions into this type of stuff? What I mean by 'main' is something other than non-denominational.