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Well, yes, the 70x7 hyperbole would be one example of that. Christ was not teaching some doctrine that we should count our forgivings, but was using the hyperbole for rhetorical effect.Could you give an example of Christ using figures of speech to produce rhetorical effect that we would not base doctrine on? Off the top pf my head I am thinking of forgiving someone 70x7 times. Is that what you mean?
By George, I think you've got it!And I took a look at idioms, and didn't realize just how complicates figurative language is. Read about fixed and mobile idioms.
God bless.
The Catholics still have not figured out that Jesus was using metaphors in the Lord's Supper.An idiom can possibly take centuries to find out.
It's raining cats and dogs today, yes literally here in Washington State.
When I show someone a picture of my wife and say "this is my wife"... well you know the rest of the story.The Catholics still have not figured out that Jesus was using metaphors in the Lord's Supper.
Well, yes, the 70x7 hyperbole would be one example of that. Christ was not teaching some doctrine that we should count our forgivings, but was using the hyperbole for rhetorical effect.
Christ's parables are figurative language, considered to be extended metaphors. Any class on hermeneutics, Synoptic Gospels, etc., will teach that we do not form doctrine from parables. They are Christ's sermon illustrations, designed for rhetorical effect.
This is just why it is so mistaken when amils, postmils, and preterists insist that Christ's metaphors represent some kind of affirmation of allegorical interpretation. (And oddly, the BB denizens that travel that road keep insisting to me that they do not believe in allegorizing. I still can't figure that out.)
By George, I think you've got it!
When I show someone a picture of my wife and say "this is my wife"... well you know the rest of the story.
Oh you don't know how true that is!If its anything like my situation, then it would be "What in the world is that pretty lady doing with that guy!"
God bless.
They seem a bit too literal then??? the Literal truth was "spiritual"???....not allegorical but spiritual truth. Physical elements had a spiritual meaningThe Catholics still have not figured out that Jesus was using metaphors in the Lord's Supper.
We have a metaphor: "quick" = "living."Okay, got one for you:
Hebrews 4:12
King James Version (KJV)
12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
Because I do not view man as having a soul, but rather being one, I view the figurative language here as referring to, in regards to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, being a reference to physical death, which we see taught in regards to the Law.
In regards to dividing asunder of joints and marrow, I see this as referring to the body and "that which is within." I actually see a pretty gruesome picture, in that we have not only physical death in view, but a glimpse of the carcass as it breaks down.
What do you think?
God bless.
At death?We have a metaphor: "quick" = "living."
We have another metaphor: "sword."
We have personification: "a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart."
I do not view "dividing asunder" as figurative. I am a trichotomist, but believe that you cannot divide the soul and spirit, contra Asian monism. However, there is a dividing point. I would translate the Greek there as "dividing point between the soul and spirit."
In my trichotomy, the soul and spirit cannot be divided, so at death they are separated (together) from the body.At death?
James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
Matthew 27:50 And Jesus cried again with a loud voice and yielded up his spirit.
OKIn my trichotomy, the soul and spirit cannot be divided, so at death they are separated (together) from the body.
Yep!Much of the Bible is written in figurative language. To understand a passage properly, therefore, we must acquaint ourselves with the kinds of figures of speech. It is obvious that if we interpret literal language as if it were figurative, or figurative as if it were literal, we will certainly miss the meaning.
I believe you are mixing up what "spiritual" actually is. You can say, "Believe in Christ" and that is a very spiritual statement, though there are no figures of speech in it. You can then say, "Hit that ball a mile," which is a figure of speech but has no spiritual meaning at all. What is spiritual is what relates to the spirit, either the Holy Spirit or the regenerated human spirit. (The lost person's spirit is dead.)They seem a bit too literal then??? the Literal truth was "spiritual"???....not allegorical but spiritual truth. Physical elements had a spiritual meaning
Note especially that statement that "if we interpret literal language as if it were figurative, or figurative as if it were literal, we will certainly miss the meaning."Figurative Language in the Bible
J. Noel Meridith
Much of the Bible is written in figurative language. To understand a passage properly, therefore, we must acquaint ourselves with the kinds of figures of speech. It is obvious that if we interpret literal language as if it were figurative, or figurative as if it were literal, we will certainly miss the meaning.
... – From the Gospel Advocate
I might not have made it clear enough...let's see if we can clarify.I believe you are mixing up what "spiritual" actually is.
Agreed...no problem here...But could I expand this a bit?You can say, "Believe in Christ" and that is a very spiritual statement, though there are no figures of speech in it. You can then say, "Hit that ball a mile," which is a figure of speech but has no spiritual meaning at all. What is spiritual is what relates to the spirit, either the Holy Spirit or the regenerated human spirit. (The lost person's spirit is dead.)
So spiritual things in the Bible can be illustrated by figures of speech,
no...the figure does not make the thing Spiritual.....That which is Spiritual already is....the figure seeks to illustrate the concealed truth ...but are not made spiritual simply by using a figure of speech.
As I have already pointed out in several posts, a figure of speech simply is a rhetorical device to make a point. Truly spiritual words are those which have to do with spiritual things.
Now, as I have tried to explain to you and others here on the BB over and over (but apparently failed), "allegorical" or "spiritual" interpretation has nothing to do with figures of speech, but is a method of interpreting plain, literal (and spiritual) statements of Scripture in a non-literal way.
We have a metaphor: "quick" = "living."
We have another metaphor: "sword."
We have personification: "a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart."
I do not view "dividing asunder" as figurative.
I am a trichotomist, but believe that you cannot divide the soul and spirit,
However, there is a dividing point. I would translate the Greek there as "dividing point between the soul and spirit."
In my trichotomy, the soul and spirit cannot be divided, so at death they are separated (together) from the body.
Okay.John of Japan,
Hello John,
I might not have made it clear enough...let's see if we can clarify.
Well, of course. But then in that case we are still interpreting literally. Heaven is a literal, physical place. When my grandfather's book on Heaven was published by Moody Press back in the 1940's, he insisted they capitalize Heaven because it is a literal place just like New York is.Agreed...no problem here...But could I expand this a bit?
you said;[What is spiritual is what relates to the spirit, either the Holy Spirit or the regenerated human spirit. ]
Yes, However ...perhaps there are other things that enter in.
I am thinking of Jesus speaking with Nicodemus here:
10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?
11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.
12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
John....I believe "heavenly things" pertain to "Spiritual Things " also.
If Jesus makes a distinction saying there are earthly things. it just seems as if it means more than the realm in which the 'things " pertain.
Again, just because something is spiritual does not mean it is not literal and not physical.In other words....think of Pauls language in the last half of 1cor15....
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
Now you are getting into dangerous territory. Figures of speech are not to illustrate concealed truth but revealed truth.yes they can....
no...the figure does not make the thing Spiritual.....That which is Spiritual already is....the figure seeks to illustrate the concealed truth ...
Spiritual, literal, and non-allegorical. Those were real Gentiles. So what is your point?Yes...everyone agrees in part with this description....but what is being revealed is where the difference seems to come in
Do you believe James was"allegorical here,or literal, or....Spiritual???
13 And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me:
14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.
18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.
19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:
"Quick" is a Middle English adjective for "living" (not the noun "life"). I don't see your stated union in this verse. That would be an allegorical interpretation to me.Wouldn't we just look at "quick" as an Old English term for life? One of the things that I look at is the union between the Word, the WORD, and God, where I would see a literal aspect to the statement.
The Greek word for "dividing asunder" is merismos, defined by the Friberg Analytical Lexicon: "as a process dividing up, division, separation." Thus, my translation would use the term "dividing point." The metaphor is a sharp, two-edged sword, which can pierce right down into the bone. So the metaphorical point is that there is within a human a place where the spirit and soul are joined together eternally. In other words, the spirit and soul, though one, are distinct. The Word of God brings conviction to the soul, and the spirit can thus be caused to live. (It is dead in a lost person.)Could you explain what you mean here in more detail?