Nativity Scenes and the Second Commandment

[standingfirminChrist]

Exodus 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

The context of the Ten Commandments is set right at the very beginning. Thou shalt not make any graven images...(of God). Why is it of God. Because it is evident from verse three that He is talking of Himself. Thou shalt have no other gods before me. The context is self-evident. I don't know how anyone can miss this. And how can you miss this when you take into consideration all the images that God did command them to make that went into the Tabernacle: the table of shewbread, the cherubim over the altar, the golden candlestick, etc. There were many images. God commanded them to make them. God doesn't go against His Word. He is not inconsistent. The graven images of the Ten Commandments were images of Himself, images of God, or images of any god.
The command that followed dealt with worship.
First it was wrong to make the image.
Second it was wrong to worship the image. The excuse that you don't worship the image does not excuse you from making the image in the first place. One right does not negate a wrong. The Muslim thinks that God takes all our sins and all our good works and puts them on a balance and weighs them. Does the good outweigh the bad? Christianity doesn't teach that. Sin is sin. And no amount of good will right the wrong that has already been done.
To say that you don't worship is only a cop-out.
The damage has already been done.

Excellent point, DHK! And might I also add that God had Moses make an image in the wilderness as well? A brazen serpent?

 

[Alcott]

The command is for man not to make any images or likenesses. God can make anything He wants. He owns the building material.

If God himself can do what he commands man not to do, then he can lie to us.

 

[Alcott]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alcott
And does the commandment being discussed here not say "...not make any image or any likeness..."?

If this is an intentional absurdity, please go ahead and make your point because I'm not getting it. But if that's you're actual argument, please think about how irrational it is.

I'm thinking about how irrational this whole subject is.

 

[DHK]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alcott
And does the commandment being discussed here not say "...not make any image or any likeness..."?

I'm thinking about how irrational this whole subject is.

What is your problem here? Are you offended because I shorten the command for convenience sake?
Does this make you feel better:

Exodus 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:

It still remains the same command. God's Word doesn't change. What is absurd about obeying a command, or refusing to obey it?

 

[Alcott]

Exodus 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:

It still remains the same command. God's Word doesn't change. What is absurd about obeying a command, or refusing to obey it?

Nothing. And if you drive, presumably you have a driver's license with your picture on it, so you are disobeying that command by participation in the production of any likeness.

 

[Dale-c]

If God himself can do what he commands man not to do, then he can lie to us.

That is stupid, and I will show you why:

God commands us to worship Him and He accepts our worship.
He commands us NOT to accept worship to our selves.

God can smite someone but tells us not to kill.

God is the boss. He is the one in charge. He makes the rules.
If He says that He can do A but we must do B, then who are we to question?

 

[Dale-c]

Nothing. And if you drive, presumably you have a driver's license with your picture on it, so you are disobeying that command by participation in the production of any likeness.

You are missing the whole point.

Tell me, would you be ok with statues of Allah in your house as long as no one bowed down to them?

 

[Alcott]

No, but only because I wouldn't like them there.
I don't mind my autographed picture of Ken Curtis in his Festus attire, and nobody bows down to it, so there's no problem.

 

[DHK]

Nothing. And if you drive, presumably you have a driver's license with your picture on it, so you are disobeying that command by participation in the production of any likeness.

Apparently you did not read my post quoted at the top of this page. The context of the command is not to make an image of God not of yourself, your car, your house, or anything else, but of God! God declares not to make any likeness or graven image of himself, or of any god for that matter. The context is GOD! How can anyone miss that? God commanded the Israelites to make images for the tabernacle--the cherubims for the altar, and many other objects. But none were an image of HIM. We are commanded not to make an image of GOD.

 

[webdog]

Apparently you did not read my post quoted at the top of this page. The context of the command is not to make an image of God not of yourself, your car, your house, or anything else, but of God! God declares not to make any likeness or graven image of himself, or of any god for that matter. The context is GOD! How can anyone miss that? God commanded the Israelites to make images for the tabernacle--the cherubims for the altar, and many other objects. But none were an image of HIM. We are commanded not to make an image of GOD.

It doesn't say anything about buying an image of Him, though

 

[DHK]

It doesn't say anything about buying an image of Him, though

Very true. I know a Catholic Church down the road. Do you want its address?

 

[webdog]

Very true. I know a Catholic Church down the road. Do you want its address?

Why would I need to buy a catholic church

 

[DHK]

It doesn't say anything about buying an image of Him, though

Acts 8:18-21 And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money, Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost. But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money. Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God.

 

[Dale-c]

The context is GOD! How can anyone miss that?

Easy, the same way they guy won his bet by not seeing any rats.

A guy was talking about the rats in his barn.
His friend said that he could go out there and not see a single rat for two minutes.
So the guy asked if he cared to put $50 on it.
The friend said it was a deal.
WHen they got out there the friend stood in the doorway and the guy went in and started stirring the place up. Rats started going everywhere, even inbetween both men's feet.
The guy yelled to his friend "do you see any rats?"
"No!" came the reply.

So he rattled things some more, even more rats came out.

"How about now?"

"Still can't see any!"

He then looked out and saw that the guy had his eyes closed.


So no one is going to see this truth as long as they have their eyes willfully closed and do not want to.

 

[Alcott]

The context of the command is not to make an image of God not of yourself, your car, your house, or anything else, but of God! God declares not to make any likeness or graven image of himself, or of any god for that matter.

Didn't you say 'God's Word does not change?' According to you it changed from "any likeness of anything" to "any image of God or gods."

 

[DHK]

Didn't you say 'God's Word does not change?' According to you it changed from "any likeness of anything" to "any image of God or gods."

It is called: exposition, clarification, exegesis, or take your pick. I didn't change a thing if you look in my original post. I copied it straight from Sword Searcher. All that I have done is to clarify it for those who refuse to believe it.

 

[Alcott]

It doesn't really mean what it says? Okay.

 

[Aaron]

Then God robbed himself of his glory by making himself a baby, a boy, and a man.

That's exactly right, though He didn't rob Himself, He voluntarily stepped down from His glory to become weak enough to die.

The Apostle is careful to note that though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we [him] no more.

And Jesus is scripturally called the "image of of the invisible God" [Colossians 1:15], a violation of making God into any image.

As was pointed out to you earlier, this is not in reference to His inglorious human appearance.

 

[rbell]

Easy, the same way they guy won his bet by not seeing any rats.

A guy was talking about the rats in his barn.
His friend said that he could go out there and not see a single rat for two minutes.
So the guy asked if he cared to put $50 on it.
The friend said it was a deal.
WHen they got out there the friend stood in the doorway and the guy went in and started stirring the place up. Rats started going everywhere, even inbetween both men's feet.
The guy yelled to his friend "do you see any rats?"
"No!" came the reply.

So he rattled things some more, even more rats came out.

"How about now?"

"Still can't see any!"

He then looked out and saw that the guy had his eyes closed.


So no one is going to see this truth as long as they have their eyes willfully closed and do not want to.

So now Dale has added to our list...

we are idolatrous...

...dishonest...

...and blind.

Gee. Thanks a lot.

 

[drwthohh]

Hey Guys!:wavey:

Interesting thread and I thought I would throw out a few points here.

I lean toward the side of being against the statues and stuff (including nativity statues) for a number of reasons:

1. Jesus is part of the Godhead; we aren't supposed to reduce God down into something that we can fashion with our own hands. This has great potential to limit people's understanding of who He is by creating a man-made focal point for our eyes to see. The word says to "walk by faith and not by sight". Even if we claim to be mature enough to not fall into that trap, think of all the others, including children, who don't yet have a scripturally developed concept of God. This can be a great stumblig block to them.

2. To say that God violated this command by fashioning a body for Christ is short-sighted. God is the creator, we are not. He fully understands himself and therefore has the ability to fashion a representation of Himself however he wants to, because He knows that He will get it right.

3. Mary and Joseph are in fact venerated and prayed to by millions of people in our own society. So while we may not do so, our neighbor might and we then become a stumbling block to them in their search for God.

4. Mirrors and pictures are true reflections of physical light. A clear pool of water does the same thing as a mirror or picture. Clearly God is not commanding us to rid the world of pools of water. I suppose we could have a picture of God or Christ if we could photograph Him, because that would capture a true reflection of who He is. On the other hand, a statue or painting of Christ emanates from the mind of the artist and cannot be a true reflection of God.

5. As far as statues of other stuff I don't know. I know my daughter has a bunch of dolls and various horse sculptures and figurines. I guess those are okay since I see no potential for anyone to be tempted to pray to horses or imaginary people. :laugh:

If you don't agree with me that's okay. The only thing I encourage is for all of us to keep an open mind to God and His word. If we do that He will lead us all into the way of truth as we grow in our christian faith.

Randy