Need A True Explaination of Calvinism

[Allan]

I want to emphasis the fact that faith is a work, same as npetreley, and therefore if a free willer wants to assert that they believed then they are working for their salvation but salvation is by grace. They climb in another way.
Jesus says that it's God's work in us as you say but if they don't like that then they can work for a living because Jesus says that belief is a work.

Good to meet you.

john.

So I take it that unless you are a Calvinist then you are of those damned for all eternity, if we come in another way?

Salvation is BY grace THROUGH faith. You are not saved unless you excersize faith in Christ Jesus, period. It doesn't matter if God gave you the faith or not, YOU and YOU ALONE must excersize it and therefore MUST by the very nature of YOUR decision take part in that salvation that has come by Grace.

For it one comes in another way they ARE cast into outer darkness where there is weeping and nashing of teeth.
You can't say some is saved but came in another way, just as you can't say someone is saved but they preach another gospel. Both of those statements are contradictory to scripture. There is only one gospel and there is only one way, and if you make the statement someone is coming in another way or preaching a different gospel, you have just declared (according to scripture) those people are of the damned.

 

[johnp.]

Allan.

So I take it that unless you are a Calvinist then you are of those damned for all eternity, if we come in another way?

Unless a man is born again he cannot see or enter the Kingdom of God as I have.
If you go around preaching man can do the impossible, Matt 19:25-26, then those that believe they can believe of their own are in great danger of not being safe. RO 9:16 It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy.
Not many regenerate know the truth about their faith. Teaching was taken away from the Church for awhile.

Eph 2:9 not by works, so that no one can boast.
JN 6:29 Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."

Would you like to apply yourself to the point please?

You are not saved unless you excersize faith in Christ Jesus, period.

The point. Salvation by works is denied in scripture. Rom 1:17 For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: "The righteous will live by faith."
Not by works. Not by works least you boast. Jesus said faith is a work can you clear this up please.

...YOU and YOU ALONE must excersize it and therefore MUST by the very nature of YOUR decision take part in that salvation that has come by Grace.

What decision was that then? I am what I am by the grace of God. 1 Cor 15:10. for it is God who works in me to will and to act according to his good purpose. Php 2:13. LK 1:68 "Praise be to the Lord, the God of Israel, because he has come and has redeemed his people. LK 1:77 to give his people the knowledge of salvation through the forgiveness of their sins,
The decision of the Lord to give me the knowledge of my salvation was it?

...you have just declared (according to scripture) those people are of the damned.

Why? Luther tried all the ways of his own trade to no avail does that make him one of the damned because he was trying to get in over the wall? I know Christians that fret about whether they have enough faith to be saved does that make them damned because they try everything they can to prove to themselves they are saved.

john.

 

[skypair]

npeterely,

God "works in you" only one thing until you are saved and that is CONVICTION. He convicts "of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment." If following that, you don't/didn't believe and turn your life over to Christ, He is not working any of those other things that you imagine that He is including biblical understanding and wisdom.

skypair

 

[npetreley]

God "works in you" only one thing until you are saved and that is CONVICTION.

Scripture please that it's the ONLY thing He does until you're saved.

 

[webdog]

Unless a man is born again he cannot see or enter the Kingdom of God as I have.

Wow, johnp wrote this post from the future.

 

[johnp.]

Unless a man is born again he cannot see or enter the Kingdom of God as I have.

Wow, johnp wrote this post from the future.

From the UK webdog.

john.

 

[webdog]

I already knew you were posting from a different planet, or are you saying the United Kingdom is God's Kingdom?

 

[johnp.]

Unless a man is born again he cannot see or enter the Kingdom of God as I have.

I already knew you were posting from a different planet, or are you saying the United Kingdom is God's Kingdom?

All things belong to Him webdog, there is no place His writ is wanting, God is Sovereign.

john.

 

[Isaiah40:28]

Dead, spiritually speaking, means separated, not corpse. You are equating the physical with the spiritual.

I'm starting my responses here with this little statement.
If you are spiritually dead, it means you are separated from God, but you are able to hear the Gospel and respond favorably to gain eternal life.
Did I get it right?

 

[Allan]

I agree with being seperated from the God, but we have a disagreement on being able to "hear". Specially sine the Word of God states in numerous places the non-elect/unsaved "hear" and "know" the truth yet reject it. Look at Romans and most specifically 1-4

Please show the scripture or scriptures that state while dead in sin you can not respond positively or favorably to God. For there are many scriptures that state the contrary as well.

 

[webdog]

I'm starting my responses here with this little statement.
If you are spiritually dead, it means you are separated from God, but you are able to hear the Gospel and respond favorably to gain eternal life.
Did I get it right?

You got it right. As was pointed out either on this thread or on another, if as believers we are "dead" to sin, we are not corpses to sin...unable to respond to committing sin.

 

[Isaiah40:28]

That is not remotely what I stated. I said:

"Paul being alive specifically references Paul in a type of innocent state (not knowing all his good pharasaical deeds were worthless) and there for in his unknowing state seemed happy and apparenetly alive to God because there was not condemning words against him from the Law or God. But when the Law illumiated this farse Paul immediately died Knowing he was in sin and seperated from God, when he realized the Law was a spiritual Law. "

IOW- He was not REALLY alive but only thought he was BECAUSE he saw or knew of nothing that contradicted what he THOUGHT he knew.

I have read and reread these two paragraphs and am a loss of what points you are making. I'm sorry if it is my feeble mind, but I don't know how to interact with those statements.

Web is 100% accurate in that you are confusing dead spiritually with being dead physically. Scripture does not support your contention. To be alive, is to be IN God and therefore the converse of that is, to NOT be alive is to not be IN God. God is life and outside of God there is no real life at all but a mere shadow of the truth.

So those who do not have life in God are dead, not alive?
Yes or no?
So where does Romans 8:6-7 come in?

The mind of sinful man is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace; the sinful man is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so.

So to figure this out, you're saying that Paul had in Romans 7:9, had some spirtual life, even though He was separated from God because of his sin.
In trying to figure out your position, I went back to previous posts and statements of yours.

But in both cases (as in many other scriptures) the premise is substantally established that there is life (in a sense) in those spiritally dead because it is a figurative language used to convey that we are outside the life IN God and therefore seperated from true life and so dead.

Dead means no life in God.
You have a physical body, you breath, you have life, yet spiritually you are outside of Christ, you are spiritually dead.
You have no spiritual life outside of Christ.
Where are we disagreeing?

The Greek word for dead is "nekros' and it has a proper and metephorical definition. The proper defintion refers to the physical and the metaphorical refers to spiritual.

Since a spirit can not die it can not be literally dead or else hell would be pointless.

Huh?
Death is not having life.
A dead spirit does not have spiritual life.
It is dead spiritually.
Honestly Allan, I don't get what you're trying to say at all.

We see in the above passages that we as 'believers' ARE dead TO sin. By your definition of dead that means that we are unable to respond to sin and lifeless to it, therefore in order for any believer TO sin God must first enable us to do so.

In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.

Count, reckon, consider
IOW, "Think of" ourselves as unable to respond favorably to sin. That's ideally how the Christian should view sin. We are alive to God, able and willing to respond to His commandments and obey them fully. We should be dead to sin, unable and unwilling to respond to it's desires.

Paul never states a man is unable because he is dead, but that in his seperation from God by his sin nature man would not seek after God, and even IF he would he is unable due to his sin nature to DO any good thing worthy of salvic merit.

I again am at a loss for what you are trying to convey.

 

[Isaiah40:28]

You got it right. As was pointed out either on this thread or on another, if as believers we are "dead" to sin, we are not corpses to sin...unable to respond to committing sin.

We should be, shouldn't we.
Isn't that what Paul is telling them?
"You are dead to it, it has no control over you. You, who were once slaves to it, have been set free. You are now slaves of righteousness. This is what you desire because you are now being controlled by the Spirit. You are no longer obligated to live as one who responds favorable to sin. You are obligated to live as opponents to sin and the sinful nature."
If we live by the Spirit, we will accomplish this.

So if my summation of your view is correct, which you said it is:

If you are spiritually dead, it means you are separated from God, but you are able to hear the Gospel and respond favorably to gain eternal life.

Then spirtually dead means that you have some life in you.
Where does that life come from?

 

[Isaiah40:28]

I agree with being seperated from the God, but we have a disagreement on being able to "hear". Specially sine the Word of God states in numerous places the non-elect/unsaved "hear" and "know" the truth yet reject it. Look at Romans and most specifically 1-4

What do you think it means "to hear"?
I accept that all men "know" the truth about God.

Please show the scripture or scriptures that state while dead in sin you can not respond positively or favorably to God. For there are many scriptures that state the contrary as well.

Oh, course Allan.
There are always plenty that show the contrary.
If I give you one, that will take us down yet another rabbit trail and we are still working on Romans 7:9, which was a trail off from Romans 5:12, 19 and our sinning with Adam discussion.

 

[webdog]

We should be, shouldn't we.
Isn't that what Paul is telling them?

But Paul didn't say "should". He said "are".

"You are dead to it, it has no control over you. You, who were once slaves to it, have been set free. You are now slaves of righteousness. This is what you desire because you are now being controlled by the Spirit. You are no longer obligated to live as one who responds favorable to sin. You are obligated to live as opponents to sin and the sinful nature."

Now, if "dead is dead", how does someone "dead to sin" oppose sin...they are dead, right?

Then spirtually dead means that you have some life in you.

Spiritually dead means soul separated from God in the same sense physically dead means soul separated from the body. In both instances we still exist, though. The calvinistic definition of "death" sounds like annhilatioinism. Spiritual death would also have to mean that punishment of a corpse is ridiculous. You don't hang a person for a crime if they are already dead.

 

[Isaiah40:28]

But Paul didn't say "should". He said "are".

That's because he's telling the Christians their true relationship to sin.
It is dead to them. They died to it.
And he's instructing them how they should live in light of this understanding.

Now, if "dead is dead", how does someone "dead to sin" oppose sin...they are dead, right?

Spiritually they are dead to the sin. Their spirit is alive and is now controlled by the Holy Spirit.
They oppose sin by nature of the fact that they are dead to it.

Spiritually dead means soul separated from God in the same sense physically dead means soul separated from the body. In both instances we still exist, though. The calvinistic definition of "death" sounds like annhilatioinism. Spiritual death would also have to mean that punishment of a corpse is ridiculous. You don't hang a person for a crime if they are already dead.

Spiritually dead means you have no spiritual life, you have only sinful life.
The Spirit is not in you.

 

[webdog]

That's because he's telling the Christians their true relationship to sin.
It is dead to them. They died to it.

...so they were unconscious to sin, and unable to respond to the act of sinning? You have to be consistant...

Spiritually they are dead to the sin. Their spirit is alive and is now controlled by the Holy Spirit.
They oppose sin by nature of the fact that they are dead to it.

I'm sorry, but this is double talk. If you are dead, you can't oppose anything...or are you saying you have to be "regenerated to sin"?!? If you state that dead in sin means we can't respond, dead to sin has to have the same meaning in the way you are using it.

Spiritually dead means you have no spiritual life, you have only sinful life.
The Spirit is not in you.

You have to let context dictate what dead means. When Scripture says we are "dead in our sins", it means we are spiritually separated from God due to sin. When It says "dead to sin" it means we are to be separated from sin. Let Scritptural context determine what dead means, not reformed theology...

 

[Allan]

What do you think it means "to hear"?
I accept that all men "know" the truth about God.

to hear, is to hear. If you know the truth then you understand it. Hearing is understanding.

Oh, course Allan.
There are always plenty that show the contrary.
If I give you one, that will take us down yet another rabbit trail and we are still working on Romans 7:9, which was a trail off from Romans 5:12, 19 and our sinning with Adam discussion.[/QUOTE]
Agreed. I am kind of busy but I will also come into the discussion of Romans after a bit.

 

[Isaiah40:28]

I'm sorry, but this is double talk. If you are dead, you can't oppose anything...or are you saying you have to be "regenerated to sin"?!? If you state that dead in sin means we can't respond, dead to sin has to have the same meaning in the way you are using it.

Let's start over a bit.
You maintain that Paul says that in Romans 7:9, when he is stating that he was once alive apart from the law, he means, that he____________________.
What is Paul saying?

 

[Isaiah40:28]

to hear, is to hear. If you know the truth then you understand it. Hearing is understanding.

1)So anyone can hear(understand) the Gospel and believe it?