Need A True Explaination of Calvinism

[johnp.]

Then you are a universalist. If you claim every single person ever created are condemned guilty of Adam's sin per verse 18, then every single person ever created are also made righteous through Christ.

Might be you are turning a blind eye to what you know I believe for some reason.

Surely I was sinful...from the time my mother conceived me. Is my confession where is yours?
Answer required please.

Which is correct webdog?
...just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men...
Or:
...just as the result of one trespass was not condemnation for all men...

Answer required please.

If you claim every single person ever created are condemned guilty of Adam's sin per verse 18, then every single person ever created are also made righteous through Christ.

Your conclusion leaves you the universalist because the verse does say ...just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men... doesn't it?

john.

 

[webdog]

Surely I was sinful...from the time my mother conceived me. Is my confession where is yours?
Answer required please.

Not only have I answered that in the past, but we are not discussing that verse.

Which is correct webdog?
...just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men...
Or:
...just as the result of one trespass was not condemnation for all men...

Answer required please.

A.

Your conclusion leaves you the universalist because the verse does say ...just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men... doesn't it?

How does that leave me a universalist? The condemnation was physical death to all men. That's context, johnp, try using it for once.

so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men.

Why are you avoiding this? Certainly one who not only thinks men were created for hell, but are made to sin by God cannot possibly reconcile the very plain fact that ALL MEN are made righteous through one act of righteousness, now, can they?
Answer required please

 

[psalms109:31]

The difference

psalms.


Christians have no fear of walking away even if they walk away. To those who have been called, who are loved by God the Father and kept by Jesus Christ: Jude 1.

The Prodigal Son remained a son psalms, whether he went back or not.



That's just the point isn't it? Peter did not sink did he? MT 14:31 Immediately Jesus reached out his hand and caught him. "You of little faith," he said, "why did you doubt?"

Why are you saying Peter sank as if it is akin to walking away? Why do you say Peter sank, he did not sink did he psalms? Answer this and you will never get that sinking feeling again. Did Peter walk on water? Yes. Did Peter's faith fail? Yes. Did Peter sink? No. Did Jesus keep him from sinking? Yes. Did Peter go into the lion's den? Yes. Did Peter's faith fail? Yes. Did Peter disown Jesus three times? Yes. Did Jesus disown Peter three times? No. MT 18:21 Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, "Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother when he sins against me? Up to seven times?" 22 Jesus answered, "I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times. So Jesus is not ashamed to call them brothers. Heb 2:11.

john.

There is a big difference between deniyng and disowning.

We all are going to have problems in our lives and fall, but it is like riding a bike. The only way to learn is to get back on the bike.

Those who walk away and never return like the young rich ruler would be a fool to believe they still have life in them.

There is only one road that leadss to God and that road is Jesus, whebn you get off that road, you are on the wide road.

 

[Andy T.]

If you have a problem with the age, ask God why those Israelites 20 and younger were not accountable of their parents' disobedience to God, and were allowed in the promised land.

I guess you didn't feel like answering my previous question. That's fine.

As for those Israelites under 20 - were all of those persons saved spiritually? Are they all going to be in heaven? I thought we were talking about spiritual salvation, not temporal salvation in earthly matters.

 

[johnp.]

There is a big difference between deniyng and disowning.

Sure psalms. LK 22:57 But he denied it. "Woman, I don't know him," he said.

disown verb 1 to deny having any relationship to, or connection with, someone or something. 2 to refuse to recognize or acknowledge someone or something. disownment noun.
ETYMOLOGY: 17c. (Chambers.) But what's in a language? Not enough to change a mind.

Those who walk away and never return like the young rich ruler would be a fool to believe they still have life in them.

MT 19:20 "All these I have kept," the young man said. "What do I still lack?" He wasn't saved in the first place and you don't know if he ever was or wasn't.

Why did you say Peter sank? Answer the question please.

There is only one road that leadss to God and that road is Jesus, whebn you get off that road, you are on the wide road.

I arrived at God, I did not start my pilgramage to find Him but I come in and go out and find pasture at my pleasure.

You do not believe Jesus died for your sins if you believe you can fall away and go to Hell.

john.

 

[psalms109:31]

Sure psalms. LK 22:57 But he denied it. "Woman, I don't know him," he said.

disown verb 1 to deny having any relationship to, or connection with, someone or something. 2 to refuse to recognize or acknowledge someone or something. disownment noun.
ETYMOLOGY: 17c. (Chambers.) But what's in a language? Not enough to change a mind.

There is a big difference between deniyng and disowning.

We all are going to have problems in our lives and fall, but it is like riding a bike. The only way to learn is to get back on the bike.

Disowning walking away and never returning like young rich ruler you have no life, denying like Peter and returning you still have life.

Why did you say Peter sank? Answer the question please.

To teach Peter and us to keep His focus on Jesus . Jesus is able to lift us out of everything, we just take His hand.

I arrived at God, I did not start my pilgramage to find Him but I come in and go out and find pasture at my pleasure.

You do not believe Jesus died for your sins if you believe you can fall away and go to Hell.

john.

It is God who says we have to endure to the end to be saved not me. You just got to have faith in His word.

 

[Isaiah40:28]

Why only limit it to children? Tell me what law the person born with hardly any mental capacity can grasp?
There is a difference between being innocent and not guilty, btw.

I take the clear verses of 12, 15, and 18 to help me interpret the less clear verse of 13.
You do the opposite.

The result of Adam's sin was physical death to all men...not his guilt. We are all held accountable for our OWN sin, not our parents or Adam's.

1)Verse 12 says, "because all sinned".
That's what I believe it means.
2)Verse 15 uses the past tense of "die" to indicate that men "DIED" by Adam's sin, not that we all will "die" eventually(which is also true, but that's not the point he's making HERE!).

Because Scripture tells us it has been appointed for all of us to die ONCE...and then the judgement. Sounds like condemnation to me.

Heb. 9:27 is only discussing physical death, this passage is not, since obviously the many who DIED in verse 15 were not physically dead.
You are not taking into account Paul's reasoning in verse 12 for why death came to all men: because all sinned.

I thought I had already, but at any rate, tell me when Adam and Eve died. Was it when they broke God's command and did what they were specifically told not to or not?

As was demonstrated by Adam and Eve, the moment we knowingly supercede God's commands and statutes, we die.

As is demonstrated by Paul's words in verse, 12, 15, 18-19, we died with Adam and Eve.
And since none of those involved in this discussion are professing univerisalists, I think it's irrelevant to the discussion.
You don't think the verses say that, neither do I.
And because Paul makes the same argument repeatedly throughout these verses, it's easy to see that he means to discuss the "many" in Adam, with the "many" in Christ. Likewise, the "all" in Adam, with the "all" in Christ.

Another point to be made is that by virtue of the fact that we die as a result of sin, shows that God placed Adam's guilt on the whole creation. It just wasn't a consequence that Adam and Eve had to deal with, their sin has brought by God's sovereign decree, death and condemnation for all creation.
Which is why I said way back that the reason's that infants die is because they are under the universal punishment of death.
By believing that sin is also the punishment of sin, then it can be understood why God punishes sin by giving people over to more sins. Romans 1:24 and 2 Thess. 2:11 speak of this deepening of sin.

If you continue to deny that Adam's sin did not in God's eyes cause us all to be made sinners, then you are ripping out the heart of Paul's argument, which is that as Adam was our representative in bringing condemnation while Christ is our representative in bringing righteousness.
That's the point of the argument.
Matthew Henry:

In this Adam was a type of Christ, that in the covenant-transactions that were between God and him, and in the consequent events of those transactions, Adam was a public person. God dealt with Adam and Adam acted as such a one, as a common father, factor, root, and representative of and for all his posterity; so that what he did in that station as agent for us, we may be said to have done in him and what was done to him may be said to have been done to us in him. Thus Jesus Christ, the Meditator, acted as a public person, the head of all the elect, dealt with God for them, as their father, factor, root, and representative--died for them, rose for them, entered the veil for them, did all for them. When Adam failed, we failed with him, when Christ performed, He performed for us.

Praise God for the righteousness of Christ that rescued us from the unrighteousness of Adam!

Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God!
How unsearchable his judgments,
and his paths beyond tracing out!
"Who has known the mind of the Lord?
Or who has been his counselor?"
"Who has ever given to God,
that God should repay him?"
For from him and through him and to him are all things.
To him be the glory forever! Amen.

I think I've said all I can say on this passage.

 

[johnp.]

There is a big difference between deniyng and disowning.

Just as I said, "What's in a language?"

john.

 

[webdog]

As for those Israelites under 20 - were all of those persons saved spiritually? Are they all going to be in heaven?

I don't know...are you claiming they are not? We are discussing an age of accountability regardless if it's physical or spiritual in nature. Why were 19 year olds not held accountable of the very same acts the 21 year old was?

 

[MB]

There is a big difference between deniyng and disowning.

We all are going to have problems in our lives and fall, but it is like riding a bike. The only way to learn is to get back on the bike.

Those who walk away and never return like the young rich ruler would be a fool to believe they still have life in them.

There is only one road that leadss to God and that road is Jesus, whebn you get off that road, you are on the wide road.

If we loose our salvation everytime we walk away and Hebrews says it's impossible to renew them again. Then explain how any of us can sin and still be saved? When we sin we are walking away from Christ in that moment of sin. Everytime we sin we are choosing to love that sin more than Christ. We are infact turning our back on Him. We are denying Him inorder to commit that sin because we say to our selves the Lord will forgive us.
Because it's impossible to renew those who have walked away they are lost eternally. If this is true and we have no assurance of our Salvation we had all better start living a perfect holy life from the moment we are saved.
There isn't one soul on the old earth that lives a perfect holy life. There is no one with out sin.
Please explain the difference between walking away from Christ and sin?
MB

 

[johnp.]

Surely I was sinful...from the time my mother conceived me. Is my confession where is yours?

Answer required please.

Not only have I answered that in the past, but we are not discussing that verse.

That is not so is it, what about post #180?

The condemnation was physical death to all men.

Original sin has no place in you does it? Not unless it was your original sin. When was that webdog, surely you can remember when you died? I remember being born again but I don't remember dying.

That's context, johnp, try using it for once.

What's context webdog? Your imagination?

so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men.

Your conclusion leaves you the universalist because the verse does say ...just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men... doesn't it? If Adam brought death to us all then Christ brings life to us all. We will not die physically will we? That's your conculsion isn't it?

Why are you avoiding this?

I answered you in the past and I've answered you again did I not? Might be you don't want to know about the 'all men'?

Surely I was sinful...from the time my mother conceived me. Is my confession where is yours?
Answer required please.

Certainly one who not only thinks men were created for hell...

You say I'm a universalist that believes God creates people for Hell. One of us is mixed up I think. Mind you, I'd probably be the first universalist that believes God creates people for Hell wouldn't I? (Maybe not!)

Certainly one who not only thinks men were created for hell, but are made to sin by God cannot possibly reconcile the very plain fact that ALL MEN are made righteous through one act of righteousness, now, can they?

Your God is not omniscient but omnitemporal? How is that? If God knows who is going to Hell before He created them then He must want all men saved it's only logical to you isn't it? Not to many others I would venture.
I most certainly can reconcile the thought that all men are made righteous through the act of Christ why can't you? I also have my logic that tells me there is no way round knowing and believing that God creates people for Hell.

Answer required please

How'd I do webdog, better than you ever manage?

john.

 

[webdog]

1)Verse 12 says, "because all sinned".
That's what I believe it means.
2)Verse 15 uses the past tense of "die" to indicate that men "DIED" by Adam's sin, not that we all will "die" eventually(which is also true, but that's not the point he's making HERE!).

You fail to understand the importance of sinned..past tense. This is sin that has already been committed. If you use 12, 15 and 18 as you claim, you will see the pattern of sin that had been committed...not will be committed. We are held accountable for the sin that we committ...not Adam. We all reap the consequences of Adam's sin (sin nature, physical death), but we are NOT all guilty of Adam's sin. If you are holding hard and fast as johnp is doing with verse 18, then all men are also made righteous because of Christ, and I hope you don't believe that!

Heb. 9:27 is only discussing physical death, this passage is not, since obviously the many who DIED in verse 15 were not physically dead.
You are not taking into account Paul's reasoning in verse 12 for why death came to all men: because all sinned.

Yes all HAD sinned...past tense, not all were born sinners. Heb 9:27 is part of the condemnation as the result of one man's sin.

As is demonstrated by Paul's words in verse, 12, 15, 18-19, we died with Adam and Eve.

You demonstrated no such thing, on the contrary I have shown how your position leads to universalism.

Another point to be made is that by virtue of the fact that we die as a result of sin, shows that God placed Adam's guilt on the whole creation. It just wasn't a consequence that Adam and Eve had to deal with, their sin has brought by God's sovereign decree, death and condemnation for all creation.

If we die spiritually as a result of sin itself...and not our sin, please explain why Adam and Eve didn't dies spiritually due to the very first act of sin committed by Satan. Why were they created without Lucifer's guilt?

Which is why I said way back that the reason's that infants die is because they are under the universal punishment of death.

I agree, death is the RESULT of one man's transgression, not one man's guilt.

Another point to be made is that by virtue of the fact that we die as a result of sin, shows that God placed Adam's guilt on the whole creation. It just wasn't a consequence that Adam and Eve had to deal with, their sin has brought by God's sovereign decree, death and condemnation for all creation.

Did Adam die due to Eve's sin? Did Eve die to the serpent's sin? They each died dut to their OWN transgressions.

By believing that sin is also the punishment of sin, then it can be understood why God punishes sin by giving people over to more sins.

As I have asked in the past, what sin has a 4 week old miscarried fetus committed...just being conceived? What "more sin" does God add to them?

If you continue to deny that Adam's sin did not in God's eyes cause us all to be made sinners, then you are ripping out the heart of Paul's argument, which is that as Adam was our representative in bringing condemnation while Christ is our representative in bringing righteousness.
That's the point of the argument.

I don't deny this at all, in fact you are preaching to the choir! The bolded in you statement is 100% accurate...we are made TO BE sinners, not born sinners.

 

[Isaiah40:28]

Webdog,
Several pages back you asked me about 1 Cor. 15:22 and how one could hold to all dying in Adam and yet not believe that all will be saved, such as a universalist would contend.
I didn't forget the passage and wanted to add some comments now after some study.
I think verse 23 puts 22 in perspective:

22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

23 But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

In verse 23, Paul explains who the "all" is that will be made alive "in Christ" and he lists them in their appointed order.
1)Christ, the firstfruits
2)then when He comes, those who belong to Him

And then 24 says "then the end will come".
and vs. 25 indicates "he is must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet", which the last enemy being named is Death.

So from this passage, Paul is teaching the believers that as certain as our death in Adam was, so shall be our resurrection in Christ be.

Praise God that Christ has indeed been raised from the dead!

 

[Andy T.]

We are discussing an age of accountability regardless if it's physical or spiritual in nature. Why were 19 year olds not held accountable of the very same acts the 21 year old was?

Although it is not stated explicity, it is implicit that those under 20 did not share in the sin of not "wholly following the Lord" (Num. 32:11), save Caleb and Joshua, and so they did not receive this earthly punishment. But it may also be the fact that the Lord simply decided to pick that age for his own purposes, although I wouldn't necessarily take that approach. The context of this issue is taking over the promised land. The immediate verses reprimand the tribes of Gad and Reuben for wanting to take the easy way out. Since enscription into the Israelite army was set at 20 and above, and the the army's lack of faith in taking over the promised land is what God punished, then that seems to tie in as to why only those 20 and over shared in the punishment.

But I also think it is quite possible that an Israelite that was 19 at the time also committed this sin of unbelief in the Lord's promises. IOW, he knew he was going to turn 20 soon, and so he wasn't thinking in a vacuum. He most likely was influenced by all the unbelief around him, so it's not like at age 20 the lights would have suddenly come on - he was already walking in unbelief at age 19.

If you want to use this passage to support [spiritual] AofA, then you would have to make the AofA at 20 for everyone. In addition, if you want to tie in physical accountability with spiritual accountability, then you are faced with the conundrum of why infants die physically if they are spiritually innocent.

The question of this debate really comes down to whether or not everyone is guilty of, and participated in, Adam's sin as our federal head.

 

[webdog]

Surely I was sinful...from the time my mother conceived me. Is my confession where is yours?

Answer required please.

Answer to what You told me what your "confession" was. If you are looking for "proof texts", you are reaching with this one. How about looking at that verse in context?

Psa 51:2 Wash me thoroughly from my iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin!
Psa 51:3 For I know my transgressions, and my sin is ever before me.
Psa 51:4 Against you, you only, have I sinned and done what is evil in your sight, so that you may be justified in your words and blameless in your judgment.
Psa 51:5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me.

I see nothing here supporting original sin, whatsoever.

What's context webdog? Your imagination?

Um...Scripture? Funny how you didn't supply the context, huh?

Your conclusion leaves you the universalist because the verse does say ...just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men... doesn't it?

Yes...the RESULT OF one trespass.

If Adam brought death to us all then Christ brings life to us all. We will not die physically will we? That's your conculsion isn't it?

Adam didn't bring anything...but the RESULT OF what Adam did.

We will not die physically will we? That's your conculsion isn't it?

Please tell why you, johnp, still die after receiving life?

You say I'm a universalist that believes God creates people for Hell. One of us is mixed up I think.

I know which one.

Your God is not omniscient but omnitemporal? How is that?

My God is both. Your God is one or the other?

I most certainly can reconcile the thought that all men are made righteous through the act of Christ why can't you?

Because it's false doctrine. The Bible teaches different, that all men aren't made righteous because of the act of Christ...all men aren't going to Heaven. Eph. 2:8-9 we are saved by grace through faith, not we are saved due solely to the act of one Man.
You are really mixed up.

 

[webdog]

If you want to use this passage to support [spiritual] AofA, then you would have to make the AofA at 20 for everyone.

I used that passage to show that there is such a thing as an age of accountability, regardless of spiritual or physical.

 

[psalms109:31]

Salvation

If we loose our salvation everytime we walk away and Hebrews says it's impossible to renew them again. Then explain how any of us can sin and still be saved? When we sin we are walking away from Christ in that moment of sin. Everytime we sin we are choosing to love that sin more than Christ. We are infact turning our back on Him. We are denying Him inorder to commit that sin because we say to our selves the Lord will forgive us.
Because it's impossible to renew those who have walked away they are lost eternally. If this is true and we have no assurance of our Salvation we had all better start living a perfect holy life from the moment we are saved.
There isn't one soul on the old earth that lives a perfect holy life. There is no one with out sin.
Please explain the difference between walking away from Christ and sin?
MB

If you can walk away and never return then you were never saved in the first place. How can we go back to the life we once lived knowing Jesus suffered for it.

God has not told us to tell people it is ok to walk away, you have made your own descision to do this, this is what God tells us to do.

Hebrews 3:12
See to it, brothers, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God.13But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called Today, so that none of you may be hardened by sin's deceitfulness. 14We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first.

You have dicided to go against the word of God when you encourage people to do so. You have to do what God says, you have to endure to the end to be saved. We are saved from the law, but those who are going to be saved is those who remain in Jesus.

Ephesians 1:11
In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will,

In Him we were chosen, not apart from Him

 

[Andy T.]

I used that passage to show that there is such a thing as an age of accountability, regardless of spiritual or physical.

Well, we both agree that we are judged for sins that we participate in, and the Numbers passage may support that notion (although I'm still wondering about the 19 year old who was already unbelieving). But we disagree as to our participation in Adam's sin spiritually as our chosen (by God) federal head. The Numbers passage has no relevance to this particular question of spiritual accountability.

 

[webdog]

Webdog,
Several pages back you asked me about 1 Cor. 15:22 and how one could hold to all dying in Adam and yet not believe that all will be saved, such as a universalist would contend.
I didn't forget the passage and wanted to add some comments now after some study.
I think verse 23 puts 22 in perspective:



In verse 23, Paul explains who the "all" is that will be made alive "in Christ" and he lists them in their appointed order.
1)Christ, the firstfruits
2)then when He comes, those who belong to Him

And then 24 says "then the end will come".
and vs. 25 indicates "he is must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet", which the last enemy being named is Death.

So from this passage, Paul is teaching the believers that as certain as our death in Adam was, so shall be our resurrection in Christ be.

Praise God that Christ has indeed been raised from the dead!

I'm glad you got back to that passage, I almost forgot. Just wanted to point out something interesting from verse 22...
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.

The greek for "as" is hosper, which means more accurately "just as" or "exactly like". All die "exactly like" Adam died, both physically and spiritually. This is concrete...we die in the same manner as Adam, not "in " Adam.
The text then goes on to say "kai houto" (in like fashion, or the same manner) that those in Christ, (remember, "just as" we died by like manner of Adam, in Christ we will live in the same manner) will be resurrected.

So more accurately that text is saying.
A. We all die in the same manner Adam died, not that we died in Adam...
B. We all (those in Christ) will be raised in the same manner Christ was, not that we all will be raised for the sole reason Christ was, but because we are "in" Christ.

 

[Andy T.]

Actually, the more I think about the Numbers passage, another way of looking at it is 'judgement by association'. Just as God can judge a nation and bring calamity to it, even though not everyone within that nation is guilty of the sin(s) God is judging, so can he [physically] judge a group of people (those 20 and over - tied to the age of enscription) unilaterally and provide grace to those under 20.

* Edited to add the word 'physically' before judge to provide more clarity.