Need A True Explaination of Calvinism

[webdog]

Actually, the more I think about the Numbers passage, another way of looking at it is 'judgement by association'. Just as God can judge a nation and bring calamity to it, even though not everyone within that nation is guilty of the sin(s) God is judging, so can he judge a group of people (those 20 and over - tied to the age of enscription) unilaterally and provide grace to those under 20.

I think that is a stretch. We aren't judged based on association, but on what is done. That's justice. If my wife commits a crime, I'm not automatically guilty because I'm married to her. I will suffer the consequences of her action, but I will not be found guilty of it.
BTW, how do you know that everyone within that nation was guilty? That's reading into the text something that is not there, IMO.

 

[Isaiah40:28]

You fail to understand the importance of sinned..past tense. This is sin that has already been committed. If you use 12, 15 and 18 as you claim, you will see the pattern of sin that had been committed...not will be committed. We are held accountable for the sin that we committ...not Adam. We all reap the consequences of Adam's sin (sin nature, physical death), but we are NOT all guilty of Adam's sin. If you are holding hard and fast as johnp is doing with verse 18, then all men are also made righteous because of Christ, and I hope you don't believe that!

Yes, and when I told you I didn't get your Greek post, you ungraciously told me in effect, that's too bad, go study Greek for yourself.

Yes all HAD sinned...past tense, not all were born sinners.

So we all had sinned, past tense.
Got it.
Where's the disagreement?

If we die spiritually as a result of sin itself...and not our sin, please explain why Adam and Eve didn't dies spiritually due to the very first act of sin committed by Satan. Why were they created without Lucifer's guilt?

Because God chose Adam to be the resprentative head, not Satan.

Did Adam die due to Eve's sin? Did Eve die to the serpent's sin? They each died dut to their OWN transgressions.

And Paul says that when Adam sinned and died, "the many" died by the trespass of the one man--vs. 15

As I have asked in the past, what sin has a 4 week old miscarried fetus committed...just being conceived? What "more sin" does God add to them?

By believing that sin is also the punishment of sin, then it can be understood why God punishes sin by giving people over to more sins.

I think I was quite clear, "that sin is also the punishment of sin", which means in addition to death being the punishment for sin, giving people over to more sin is also a punishment.

So when anything dies, any part of creation, it is the result of sin.
Since this is a major issue for you, this "infant/fetus" death issue,
have you thought about how God views them?
Do they remain infants/fetus for all eternity?
We don't know, do we?
Perhaps he gives them full, mature faculties to enjoy Him and praise Him for all eternity, like we expect to have.
When babies die, or are miscarried, it is not apart from God's will that this happens. I'm sure you agree. So why should this be a continual issue?
God's timeline and purpose for every life is a secret thing that belongs to Him alone.
I'm content with that. I'm sure you are too.

I don't deny this at all, in fact you are preaching to the choir! The bolded in you statement is 100% accurate...we are made TO BE sinners, not born sinners.

But you said, that we "all had sinned",so how did we get rid of that guilt of sin, prior to being born?

 

[Andy T.]

I think that is a stretch. We aren't judged based on association, but on what is done. That's justice. If my wife commits a crime, I'm not automatically guilty because I'm married to her. I will suffer the consequences of her action, but I will not be found guilty of it.
BTW, how do you know that everyone within that nation was guilty? That's reading into the text something that is not there, IMO.

First, I wasn't necessarily advocating that position in my previous post - it just occurred to me that it was an option. On the question of everyone in a nation being guilty - that is my point - not everyone in a nation is guilty. If God decided to wipe America off the map for its wickedness, you and I would share in that 'physical' judgment, even though we would not be spiritually judged since we are in Christ. That was the point I was trying to make under 'associational judgment'.

 

[Isaiah40:28]

We all (those in Christ) will be raised in the same manner Christ was, not that we all will be raised for the sole reason Christ was, but because we are "in" Christ

I didn't say it was the"sole reason", but if Christ didn't raise from the dead, then we can't be "in Christ", so Christ's resurrection is necessary for our own resurrection.

 

[Isaiah40:28]

Webdog,
Might as well ask now, what's your view on Achan's sin, the Isarelite loss at Ai and the stoning of the whole family? Joshua 7 if you need a reference.

 

[webdog]

Yes, and when I told you I didn't get your Greek post, you ungraciously told me in effect, that's too bad, go study Greek for yourself.

Now you aren't being honest. I told you I was sorry if you didn't understand me. Nothing ungracious about that whatsoever. I did supply the greek and the meanings. If it's still unclear, that's on you.

So we all had sinned, past tense.
Got it.
Where's the disagreement?

What sin (past tense) has a newborn committed?

Because God chose Adam to be the resprentative head, not Satan.

Now you are diverting. You stated we die as a result of sin, and not our own sin. If this were the case, Adam would have died in Lucifer, and not when HE sinned.

So when anything dies, any part of creation, it is the result of sin.

Agreed...result OF sin.

Since this is a major issue for you, this "infant/fetus" death issue,
have you thought about how God views them?

Don't have to think much on it, Scripture tells us. Romans 5:13

Do they remain infants/fetus for all eternity?
We don't know, do we?
Perhaps he gives them full, mature faculties to enjoy Him and praise Him for all eternity, like we expect to have.
When babies die, or are miscarried, it is not apart from God's will that this happens. I'm sure you agree. So why should this be a continual issue?

Totally irrelevant to the conversation. I have no idea what you are getting at...

But you said, that we "all had sinned",so how did we get rid of that guilt of sin, prior to being born?

There is a point in life that we all have sinned. Being born was not it. The point we transgressed God's law was the point.
You are starting with the false premise that we are born with guilt.

 

[MB]

If you can walk away and never return then you were never saved in the first place. How can we go back to the life we once lived knowing Jesus suffered for it.

1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1Jn 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

God has not told us to tell people it is ok to walk away, you have made your own descision to do this, this is what God tells us to do.

We all sin willfully everyone who sins is responsible for there actions. Everytime we sin we are walking away from God. We are rebelling against Him.

Hebrews 3:12
See to it, brothers, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God.13But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called Today, so that none of you may be hardened by sin's deceitfulness. 14We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first.

Your the one with out the confidence that's it says to have in this verse above. I have confidence in the ability of the seal of God on me. I have confidence in Him to correct me when I go against His will.

You have dicided to go against the word of God when you encourage people to do so.

A false accusation.

You have to do what God says, you have to endure to the end to be saved. We are saved from the law, but those who are going to be saved is those who remain in Jesus.

Then why isn't your life perfect and holy as He said to be?

Ephesians 1:11
In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will,

In Him we were chosen, not apart from Him[/quote]
I agree we are chosen in Him. I'm a fundamentalist, not a Calvinist. I do not believe in perseverance of the Saints.
Paul said

Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

It isn't our righteousness that opens the gates to eternal life. We have to wear the righteousness of Christ. We might deny Christ, Peter did. We aren't any better than he was. Yet Peter was saved. Peter denied Christ. In effect denouncing Him saying he wasn't one of His followers. So according to your theology Peter is in hell.
We aren't saved by being sinless we are saved because Christ is sinless. It is His righteousness we wear. It is His perfect faith that saves us.

I do not claim that we can be saved and sin all we want. I say if we are saved Christ will finish the good work He began in us. Meaning that it Salvation isn't given to those who are already righteous. It is given to those who wear the righteous of another.
MB

 

[psalms109:31]

Holy Just

I answer with one simple answer.

It is Jesus who is Holy and just. You must put on Jesus Christ to be saved.

Apart from Jesus we are no good for nothing but the fire. I am not perfect and never will be so I must trust and believe (faith) in Jesus to save me.

Who can save me from thjis body of death, praise be to Jesus.

We will depend on Jesus for our salvation or it will be the death of us.

 

[johnp.]

Now you are diverting. You stated we die as a result of sin, and not our own sin. If this were the case, Adam would have died in Lucifer, and not when HE sinned.

What is this webdog? It's becoming very dark. RO 5:15 But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man...

psalms.

I am not perfect and never will be so I must trust and believe (faith) in Jesus to save me.

But you do not trust Jesus because you say you can walk away. That is trusting you do not walk away isn't it? Yes it is.

Who can save me from thjis body of death, praise be to Jesus.

But you contradict yourself. If you can still walk away then He hasn't saved you from anything has He? Your body of death has feet.

We will depend on Jesus for our salvation or it will be the death of us.

You do not you depend on you not walking away, you just say Jesus saves but all the time you contradict that by saying you save you.

john.

 

[psalms109:31]

Scripture

Walking away proves that I was never His in the first place, we must endure to the end to be saved, you cannot go around that truth to hold on a false hope.

Jesus is our only hope.

 

[Andy T.]

Webdog, re: post 226 - your analogy of Lucifer-to-Adam. Lucifer is an angel, not a human. For whatever reason, God did not choose him to be Adam's federal head (I suspect because he is an angel and Adam was a human). Therefore, the analogy fails.

 

[webdog]

I may not have presented what I was trying to say accurately. It was said we die because of sin...not our sin...but sin in general. Sin had already taken place when God created Adam and Eve with the fall of Satan from Heaven. If death occurs for the sole reason sin exists, Adam and Eve should have died the second they were created. They both died spiritually due to THEIR sin. We die spiritually due to OUR sin. The consequences handed down from our represenatative Adam is physical death.

 

[Andy T.]

I won't speak for the other posters involved, but I would say what I said in #231 - that God chose Adam as our representative, not Satan.

 

[Isaiah40:28]

Now you aren't being honest. I told you I was sorry if you didn't understand me. Nothing ungracious about that whatsoever. I did supply the greek and the meanings. If it's still unclear, that's on you.

Here's your original Greek post:
Originally Posted by Webdog

G264
ἁμαρτάνω
hamartanō
ham-ar-tan'-o
Perhaps from G1 (as a negative particle) and the base of G3313; properly to miss the mark (and so not share in the prize), that is, (figuratively) to err, especially (morally) to sin: - for your faults, offend, sin, trespass.

How I'm supposed to see how this stuff helps your argument is beyond me. And since you refuse to offer further explanation, I'm going to assume that you don't know.

What sin (past tense) has a newborn committed?

I 've answered that plenty of times. Go reread my answers, they haven't changed.

Now you are diverting. You stated we die as a result of sin, and not our own sin. If this were the case, Adam would have died in Lucifer, and not when HE sinned.

Again, I've said this as well. We didn't just die from any sin, we died from Adam's sin. Read Romans 5, Paul always takes it back to one man, Adam, no one else.

Please address when "all sinned", past tense.
Please address when "the many died", past tense.
Please address when "the many were made sinners", past tense.

 

[Isaiah40:28]

I won't speak for the other posters involved, but I would say what I said in #231 - that God chose Adam as our representative, not Satan.

Which is what I told him as well.
#222

Because God chose Adam to be the resprentative head, not Satan.

 

[Isaiah40:28]

The consequences handed down from our represenatative Adam is physical death.

Please prove from the text that Paul is speaking strictly of "physical death" in Romans 5.
If he is, then why does he say "the many died", past tense in verse 15?
I didn't physically die yet and I'm part of the "many" who "died".

 

[Isaiah40:28]

Webdog,
Might as well ask now, what's your view on Achan's sin, the Isarelite loss at Ai and the stoning of the whole family? Joshua 7 if you need a reference.

bumping.
in case you missed it.

 

[johnp.]

...head...

Not as in boss but as in source has a bearing on the word. Adam was the source of the human race and the pattern for it.

The consequences that Adam caused was a dead spirit and the guilt of disobedience, assossiated with the Garden bust, and our condition which causes us to be conceived in a state of emnity towards God.

If Satan had been head of the race, as in boss, then Jesus would have had to die for the sins of Satan and the condemnation he brought us but He would also have to die for us again to clear our sins.
He would have had to die as an Angel and a Man.

Is that right or relevant?

john.

 

[webdog]

Please prove from the text that Paul is speaking strictly of "physical death" in Romans 5.
If he is, then why does he say "the many died", past tense in verse 15?
I didn't physically die yet and I'm part of the "many" who "died".

If it's not physical, why are you still going to die someday? You've received new life, haven't you? It has been appointed to man once to die, hasn't it? How did that come about?

 

[Isaiah40:28]

If it's not physical, why are you still going to die someday? You've received new life, haven't you? It has been appointed to man once to die, hasn't it? How did that come about?

I don't think you really even bother reading my answers. You can't possibly, cause if you did, you would have seen my words.
Here they are again:

Please prove from the text that Paul is speaking strictly of "physical death" in Romans 5.
If he is, then why does he say "the many died", past tense in verse 15?
I didn't physically die yet and I'm part of the "many" who "died".

Can you answer the question? I'm beginning to doubt it.