Need alittle Help Here

[The Biblicist]

Thanks for the reply Biblicist, he tells me he believed he was truly saved according to what he was taught from the scriptures and according to what he was feeling inside emotionally, but then this evangelist "convinced" him he wasn't, or at least caused him to doubt, so he wanted to make sure, so he once again confessed his sins and called upon Jesus Christ to save him just as the scriptures teach how one becomes a child of God. So he is not saying his confessions were false, he is just saying he believes now what he felt inside was not any Spirit of Christ but rather just common emotions that all people can feel if they want to believe something is real.



But this is what we want and teach. We are commanded to raise our children in the Lord and in the church, and not to suffer the little children to come unto Him. And God gives a promise, "Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it." (Provb22)

You will have to trust what I tell you for I know my brother and I know my nephew well. He was not coerced into calling upon Jesus Christ, he freely wanted to, and believed Jesus would honor his prayer.

I know from scripture and from my own experience that there is a greater witness within me that confirms my salvation over and above even my own flesh (which always is in attack mode), much less any man outside of me. It is from that inner witness I can say I "KNOW" as it is the abiding Spirit that provides that kind of assurance (1 Thes. 1:4) in spite of myself, men or Satan.

You may "know" your brother and nephew, but you cannot possibly know their heart as only God is privy to that. You can only surmise. It is possible to have your faith overthrown so that you doubt your own salvation. However, doubting your own salvation is one thing, denying there is a God is quite another thing and proclaiming to be an atheist. If such is the product of having their faith overthrown, Paul tells Timothy that God still knows His own even if His own have lost faith in knowing God. Hence, that must be possible.

On the other hand, there are those who were "of us" but who went from us that it might be manifest they were really not of us at all (1 Jn. 2:19). Significantly, the apostle informs us that their departure is the ONLY THING that makes this manifest, not their former profession, not their former life, not their former attitude but only their departure.

 

[steaver]

I have been saved for fourty years this past March eleventh. I have had dry spells, and seviere trials and tribulations in my life as well as the closeness of walking with Christ. At no time have i ever had the desire to not want to be a christian any more. I have been chastened of the Lord but he didn't wait years in between the disobedience and the chastisment. When God saved me he gave me assurance at this time. I was saved in free will belief and later started believing in the sovereignty of God. I had a sovereign grace preacher tell me one time it was impossible to be saved under free will preaching and i should make a new profession. I would not because i believe it would be a denial of the Holy Spirit that came into my soul the night i was saved. Your nephew i think was led into easy believism and had an emotional experience rather than a spiritual one so therefore it was easy to walk away from. Easy come, easy go.

Thanks for the testimony Salzer,

your testimony touches on another aspect of in Christ that I believe we fail to take into consideration when observing Christians. With you, the Lord did not wait years between disobedience and chastisement. My experience was the Lord ever subtly backing off with the Holy Spirit convictions in my disobedience until I found myself ten years later in a very bad place, at which time the Spirit came upon me with powerful conviction and I repented.

You touched on another subject, emotional verses spiritual. How would you describe the difference? It appears to me that the Spirit works through the emotions, no? When we sing certain worship songs in church I just well up inside, sometimes I have to stop singing I am so touched. Is this just emotions without any Spirit?

 

[salzer mtn]

Thanks for the testimony Salzer,

your testimony touches on another aspect of in Christ that I believe we fail to take into consideration when observing Christians. With you, the Lord did not wait years between disobedience and chastisement. My experience was the Lord ever subtly backing off with the Holy Spirit convictions in my disobedience until I found myself ten years later in a very bad place, at which time the Spirit came upon me with powerful conviction and I repented.

You touched on another subject, emotional verses spiritual. How would you describe the difference? It appears to me that the Spirit works through the emotions, no? When we sing certain worship songs in church I just well up inside, sometimes I have to stop singing I am so touched. Is this just emotions without any Spirit?

Of course the Spirit can produce emotions in a christian, but the flesh can produce emotions too. For example, on mothers day gospel radios will play songs about mothers and i can set and listen to these songs and get pretty emotional because i had a dear christian mother. But i also recognize i am getting worked up by the flesh and not of the Spirit. The only songs that produce spiritual emotions are songs that praise and glorify the Lord.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

No one comes to Christ kicking and screaming. Sure!

No one is brought to Christ without kicking and screaming either!

When it is OSAS it is Passive, always, Passive and grateful.

 

[Yeshua1]

I have found that often times, those who "love" being at church and church events love it for the social aspect, not the spiritual aspect.

I do not believe that he was ever truly saved if he no longer believes in God. I really have seen and believe that if one is saved, they cannot NOT believe in God. Their heart - which is indwelt by the Spirit - can never deny His presence.

I agree with you, that Imperishable seed thing taught in the Bible, but some like Charles Stanley do hold that even IF a Christian lost his faith, God still saves them, that would be taking grace too far!

 

[steaver]

I know from scripture and from my own experience that there is a greater witness within me that confirms my salvation over and above even my own flesh (which always is in attack mode), much less any man outside of me. It is from that inner witness I can say I "KNOW" as it is the abiding Spirit that provides that kind of assurance (1 Thes. 1:4) in spite of myself, men or Satan.

You may "know" your brother and nephew, but you cannot possibly know their heart as only God is privy to that. You can only surmise. It is possible to have your faith overthrown so that you doubt your own salvation. However, doubting your own salvation is one thing, denying there is a God is quite another thing and proclaiming to be an atheist. If such is the product of having their faith overthrown, Paul tells Timothy that God still knows His own even if His own have lost faith in knowing God. Hence, that must be possible.

On the other hand, there are those who were "of us" but who went from us that it might be manifest they were really not of us at all (1 Jn. 2:19). Significantly, the apostle informs us that their departure is the ONLY THING that makes this manifest, not their former profession, not their former life, not their former attitude but only their departure.

Sooooo...you would believe it is possible according to scripture this man is saved, yet his faith has been overthrown, and God is his Father and God will bring him to completion. And also it is possible he was never really saved, depending on which scripture he falls upon, only God knows for sure.

 

[steaver]

Biblicist, you made this statement;

I have seen the same kind of scenario work out with many who have had such early childhood professions. It is not strange for children raised in a church atmosphere to assimilate into that kind of atmosphere due to the acceptance and positive encouragement.

And I replied;

But this is what we want and teach. We are commanded to raise our children in the Lord and in the church, and not to suffer the little children to come unto Him. And God gives a promise, "Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it." (Provb22)

You will have to trust what I tell you for I know my brother and I know my nephew well. He was not coerced into calling upon Jesus Christ, he freely wanted to, and believed Jesus would honor his prayer.

What do you think of this? Does Jesus say to these little children "no, not yet, I will wait until you are a little older and have more understanding".

 

[steaver]

I agree with you, that Imperishable seed thing taught in the Bible, but some like Charles Stanley do hold that even IF a Christian lost his faith, God still saves them, that would be taking grace too far!

What would be your take on the questions I asked Biblicist above, concerning God's promise about training up a child and Jesus saying suffer them not to come unto Him? Do you believe Jesus rejected my nephew's prayer to be saved when he was six, and then again when he was a young teen?

 

[The Biblicist]

Sooooo...you would believe it is possible according to scripture this man is saved, yet his faith has been overthrown, and God is his Father and God will bring him to completion. And also it is possible he was never really saved, depending on which scripture he falls upon, only God knows for sure.

The problem is that we cannot examine the heart. There are false professions and there are children of God who may be living outside of God's will.

 

[The Biblicist]

Biblicist, you made this statement;




And I replied;



What do you think of this? Does Jesus say to these little children "no, not yet, I will wait until you are a little older and have more understanding".

So, you are claiming that every child raised in a Christian family under Christian teaching God is obligated to save??

The problem is that small children will believe in Santa Clause as much as Christ and seek to please their parents. Salvation includes more than acceptance but a new creature. If there is no new creature there was no true saving faith.

 

[Yeshua1]

So, you are claiming that every child raised in a Christian family under Christian teaching God is obligated to save??

The problem is that small children will believe in Santa Clause as much as Christ and seek to please their parents. Salvation includes more than acceptance but a new creature. If there is no new creature there was no true saving faith.

MUST factor into this discussion the truth that God has chosen to save His own people in Christ, and that Children to me would be "protected" unto age of God personally holding them accountible /responsible for their sins...

KNOW that salvation is of the lord, and that He has reserved and chosen out a people for His name sake, I just would see children/infents/challenged sinners having God provoding for them an Ark by the Cross!

Once an adult, IF one of the saved, would exhibit fruit of some type reflecting that!!

 

[steaver]

So, you are claiming that every child raised in a Christian family under Christian teaching God is obligated to save??

The problem is that small children will believe in Santa Clause as much as Christ and seek to please their parents. Salvation includes more than acceptance but a new creature. If there is no new creature there was no true saving faith.

I don't think I was claiming something, but I am asking if you have an answer to my questions.

Originally Posted by steaver
But this is what we want and teach. We are commanded to raise our children in the Lord and in the church, and not to suffer the little children to come unto Him. And God gives a promise, "Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it." (Provb22)

You will have to trust what I tell you for I know my brother and I know my nephew well. He was not coerced into calling upon Jesus Christ, he freely wanted to, and believed Jesus would honor his prayer.

What do you think of this? Does Jesus say to these little children "no, not yet, I will wait until you are a little older and have more understanding".

 

[steaver]

MUST factor into this discussion the truth that God has chosen to save His own people in Christ, and that Children to me would be "protected" unto age of God personally holding them accountible /responsible for their sins...

KNOW that salvation is of the lord, and that He has reserved and chosen out a people for His name sake, I just would see children/infents/challenged sinners having God provoding for them an Ark by the Cross!

Once an adult, IF one of the saved, would exhibit fruit of some type reflecting that!!

It sounds as though you are saying all children are saved until adulthood, and then it is revealed which one's are saved. That doesn't make much sense. I would think that in the Calvinistic model, there is no such "age of accountability", and not all children would automatically be saved. But this is a rabbit trail.

What do you think about the questions I raised?

 

[BobRyan]

What would be your take on the questions I asked Biblicist above, concerning God's promise about training up a child and Jesus saying suffer them not to come unto Him? Do you believe Jesus rejected my nephew's prayer to be saved when he was six, and then again when he was a young teen?

The Arminian can know for certain he is saved today - but does not now for certain that he will choose to persevere 20 years from today.

The 5 point Calvinist cannot even know that much.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[steaver]

The Arminian can know for certain he is saved today - but does not now for certain that he will choose to persevere 20 years from today.

The 5 point Calvinist cannot even know that much.

in Christ,

Bob

Brother Bob, do you have any answers to the questions I asked?

It appears no one wants to touch this subject, it seems to be a quandary for both camps and all in between camps.

 

[BobRyan]

Brother Bob, do you have any answers to the questions I asked?

It appears no one wants to touch this subject, it seems to be a quandary for both camps and all in between camps.

I think your question is about "Train up a child in the way he should go".

Adam and Eve trained up - Seth, Cain and Abel. (and of course others). We can see that two of them did not depart from the teaching of their parents.

In the case of your nephew part of that "Training" may have been the "Training" that he got at Liberty. If that included the news that God did not create the world or that the Bible is not really true, or that you should not believe the OT etc - or if it included a relationship with another person that was not morally correct, that would have been a powerful element of "training" that might send him out the wrong way.

Still in all fairness - he is not yet "old". According to Romans 11 "God is able to renew them again if they do not continue in unbelief". If in his later years he does return to God you will be back at this board saying "it is true! When he was old he did not depart from the training in his early childhood".

The same Arminian principle that assures one that they are indeed saved today but does not predict that they will choose to persevere 10 years from today - also tells the lost they are lost today - but does not assure them that they will choose to remain lost 10 years from today.

It is the same Arminian principle that tells us to seek out the lost - to encourage them at every turn to choose to repent to choose life. As Paul says "we beg you on behalf of Christ be reconciled to God". Whereas the primitive Baptist might not be interested in that approach to the lost at all - because they think they should wait until God turns the lost into the SAVED saint -- and THEN they should witness to them.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[steaver]

I think your question is about "Train up a child in the way he should go".

Adam and Eve trained up - Seth, Cain and Abel. (and of course others). We can see that two of them did not depart from the teaching of their parents.

In the case of your nephew part of that "Training" may have been the "Training" that he got at Liberty. If that included the news that God did not create the world or that the Bible is not really true, or that you should not believe the OT etc - or if it included a relationship with another person that was not morally correct, that would have been a powerful element of "training" that might send him out the wrong way.

Still in all fairness - he is not yet "old". According to Romans 11 "God is able to renew them again if they do not continue in unbelief". If in his later years he does return to God you will be back at this board saying "it is true! When he was old he did not depart from the training in his early childhood".

The same Arminian principle that assures one that they are indeed saved today but does not predict that they will choose to persevere 10 years from today - also tells the lost they are lost today - but does not assure them that they will choose to remain lost 10 years from today.

It is the same Arminian principle that tells us to seek out the lost - to encourage them at every turn to choose to repent to choose life. As Paul says "we beg you on behalf of Christ be reconciled to God". Whereas the primitive Baptist might not be interested in that approach to the lost at all - because they think they should wait until God turns the lost into the SAVED saint -- and THEN they should witness to them.

in Christ,

Bob

Thanks! And what would you say about a child calling upon Jesus Christ for forgiveness and salvation? Could Jesus say "no", or If Jesus says "yes" , would this child then be born-again?

 

[Yeshua1]

Thanks! And what would you say about a child calling upon Jesus Christ for forgiveness and salvation? Could Jesus say "no", or If Jesus says "yes" , would this child then be born-again?

ANY who call upon the name of the Lord is saved, but the Lord has to enable them that wanting to call upon the Lord!

Children to me would be under the provision of the Cross, as God would work into His Purpose and plans rmission of their sins by not holding them against them!
My opinion, others may differ...

 

[steaver]

ANY who call upon the name of the Lord is saved, but the Lord has to enable them that wanting to call upon the Lord!

Children to me would be under the provision of the Cross, as God would work into His Purpose and plans remission of their sins by not holding them against them!
My opinion, others may differ...

Do you mean all children are saved until a certain time and then God either calls them or leaves them to condemnation? That really doesn't make any sense if you are of the Calvinistic persuasion.

 

[Yeshua1]

Do you mean all children are saved until a certain time and then God either calls them or leaves them to condemnation? That really doesn't make any sense if you are of the Calvinistic persuasion.

This is a mystery, as the bible does not directly address issue, so based upon nature of God and the provisions of the Cross..

Those whom God lnows shall fall into that category have their sins atoned for in Cross...