.needs help

[Darrell C]

To think that God loved those who are of the Elect because He saw in advance that they would choose to respond to the Gospel, or the contemporary will of God in their day before the Gospel of Christ was revealed to men, then you have just taught that men are saved by a work they effect, namely...believing.

I rejected this statement and explained that God never does this and no cal teaches this.

I'm going to jump ahead a little, but that's okay, the points been made often enough, no harm one more time, right?


Romans 1:18-21

King James Version (KJV)

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

Good verses men are responsible before God and without excuse...but they are truth suppressors which I said to you and you denied it...I will show it when we get to that post. Do you deny you posted that? Would you like to change your statement now?

Truth suppressors, eh?

So you feel God is incapable of leading men through the internal witness and testimony of creation to obedience, is that what you are saying?

Which confirms my point that you are a pseudo-Calvinist who does an injustice to the Sovereignty of God.

Let's see that Sovereignty in action in a Biblical context:


Romans 2:12-15

King James Version (KJV)

12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another)

I'll walk you through this, because I want you to see your open hostility to the Word of God and His Sovereignty, as well as how this shows His love expressed and manifested to...and in sinners.

Now note v.13. You agree with Scripture that it clearly states those that are doers of the Law shall be justified, correct?

You don't, not really, but again, hang in there:

Romans 2:12-15

King James Version (KJV)

12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another)


Now it is Gentiles said to do, by nature, the things contained in the Law, and that they are a Law unto themselves, right? You agree, right?

Well, not really, you don't. But hang in there, we're almost done:


Romans 2:12-15

King James Version (KJV)

12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another)


Now you agree that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, so you would agree they do the works of the Law, and that the Law is written on their hearts, right?

Well, unfortunately, you don't, but don't despair at your anti-biblical nature...you can have your mind changed by the Word of God. It's true.

Because what this tells us, amigo, is that in view are Gentiles who benefit from the grace of God Who, because of His love for them...justifies them because they are obedient to the works of the Law written on their hearts.

You can believe Scripture, instead of taking the position...

I commented on this, and yet this does not save anyone...heathen gentiles do not KEEP the law and you falsely stated.

See it again, your doctrine is in conflict with what God has said in His word:


Romans 2:12-15

King James Version (KJV)

12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another)


The Economy is clearly that of being under Law, because these heathen Gentiles are contrasted with those that have the Law. And who is it that has the Law?


Romans 2:17-24

King James Version (KJV)

17 Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God,

18 And knowest his will, and approvest the things that are more excellent, being instructed out of the law;

19 And art confident that thou thyself art a guide of the blind, a light of them which are in darkness,

20 An instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, which hast the form of knowledge and of the truth in the law.

21 Thou therefore which teachest another, teachest thou not thyself? thou that preachest a man should not steal, dost thou steal?

22 Thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery? thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou commit sacrilege?

23 Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God?

24 For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written.


And the simple truth you refuse to acknowledge is that because these Heathen Gentiles are contrasted with the Jew under Law...we see those outside of specific revelation counted among the Elect.

Understand?

They are Elect because they are justified through obedience to the revelation provided to all men. That internal witness is a manifestation of the Love of God to the world in general.

Let that be a spoonful of dust for you, lol.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

Chapter 3: Of God's Decree
1._____ God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby is God neither the author of sin nor hath fellowship with any therein; nor is violence offered to the will of the creature, nor yet is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established; in which appears his wisdom in disposing all things, and power and faithfulness in accomplishing his decree.
( Isaiah 46:10; Ephesians 1:11; Hebrews 6:17; Romans 9:15, 18; James 1:13; 1 John 1:5; Acts 4:27, 28; John 19:11; Numbers 23:19; Ephesians 1:3-5 )
2._____ Although God knoweth whatsoever may or can come to pass, upon all supposed conditions, yet hath he not decreed anything, because he foresaw it as future, or as that which would come to pass upon such conditions. ( Acts 15:18; Romans 9:11, 13, 16, 18 )

From the 1689 confession of faith;

Another tidbit not in the original post.

Shame...shame.

You have effectively nullified Ephesians 2:8-10.

We are saved by grace through faith, not of works, and that not of ourselves.

Well obviously this has not taken place.

Oh, so you are going to question my salvation too, eh?

Again, not offended, it is simply the tactic of losers.

They are not saved before they are saved.

of course not.

According to you they are.

You refuse to acknowledge the teaching of Christ and the teaching of Paul. Both make it clear that the Spirit enlightens natural men, and there is no distinction in many passages where we see that all men, and every man, and the world identified as unbelievers...benefit from the Love that prompted God to manifest in the flesh.

According to you there are those that the Gospel is not sent out to.


Acts 17:29-31

King James Version (KJV)

29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.


All means all, men means men, and every where mean everywhere.

They stand on equal ground with all men until their understanding is enlightened by God and they yield in obedience to the Gospel

.
okay

The sheer brilliance of that response just leaves me speechless. Kind of.

I just wish it was a sincere "okay." But that's, well...okay.

Are you going to say that only the Elect are brought under conviction?

Many men are convicted by the Spirit but many are not savingly convicted as are the elect.

Many? Scripture says the world, and all men.

Christ did not teach that some men in certain places would be convicted by the Comforter.

By the way...one of several verses you rejected shows this ...but you did not understand the verse at all and rejected it at least 2 or 3 times.....10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death

You are running on a false premise, which I already denied:

Originally Posted by Iconoclast View Post
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.

38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,

39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Relevance?

We are not discussing the Security of the Believer.

The OP was not dealing with saving, or savingly repentance, lol.

Here it is again (you know what they say, "Fiftieth times the charm.)...

We know what the bible says in John 3:16, so does that mean that He loves every single person? If so, and only those who get saved are those who are predestined/chosen, how is this love manifest for the not predestined/chosen?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

There is a sorrow for sin caused by the Spirits conviction that leads to a "Godly sorrow" that works repentance to salvation.....that is what we are speaking about...so it is relevant despite your claim that it is not...I will point it out to you when it appears...

So let's talk about what we are talking about: God's love manifested to the lost.

You can say, as the OP did, the not predestined/chosen, doesn't change the fact that they are lost.

And nothing changes the fact that all of the Elect are lost before being saved.

So point it out when it appears. I guess that is thread number three, maybe?

But some are convicted in a worldly way....that leads to death.... they might be sorry they got caught commiting a sin or crime but they are not saved from sin by the SAVING LOVE of God.

How about those Heathen Gentiles God says He will justify?

Kind of like Abraham.

And several million Jews, not to mention those of the mixed multitude who would never be allowed to participate in certain functions only a member of one of the Tribes could fulfill?

How about you and me, my friend? Do you acknowledge that you were lost...before you were saved? A simple point for a simple fellow...that shows God's love to the lost, and there is not different between the Elect and non-elect prior to regeneration. Something you give lip service to.

John 16:7-9

King James Version (KJV)

7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;

good verses, but they say nothing about God's love in particular as I said to you originally. Why do I need to comment here as they are truly not on topic.

Is it not God's love for which the Son came? Is it not God's love that Christ went to the Cross? Is God sending the Comforter a part of some other Redemptive Plan you and your fellow cheerleaders know about? Could you tell me exactly where you find this, and how God has authorized you to nullify some very basic truths He has already spoken?

Quote:
Does this nullify the fact that Christ was the Lamb of God which taketh away the sins of the world? It's a very simple verse. Does this nullify Paul's teaching that even the Gentiles kept the Law of God because of the internal witness God has placed in every man?

Paul does not say the gentiles Kept the law...you have it wrong....

Says it right here:


Romans 2:12-15

King James Version (KJV)

12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another)


But that's right, your Theology System has taught you it is acceptable to take away from God's Word, and to add to it when it is convenient. It says a thousand years, you don't need to hear it, right?

he did say they do by nature the things contained in the law...

He also states...


Romans 2:12-15

King James Version (KJV)

12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another)


Seems vaguely familiar with, I don't know...the rest of the Bible, maybe?

Here are a few specifics...


James 2:20-22

King James Version (KJV)

20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?


James 1:22

King James Version (KJV)

22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

the image of God while broken in the fall has remnants that are in their conscience in broken pieces.

The image of God?


Genesis 5

King James Version (KJV)

1 This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;

2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.

3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, and after his image; and called his name Seth:


And when you say...

the image of God while broken in the fall has remnants that are in their conscience in broken pieces.

...do you mean some men? The Elect only?

Or all men, everywhere?

Could you clarify that? I hate to ask you to contradict yourself, but since you are so adept at it and seem to revel in displaying this in public, I guess you wouldn't mind terribly.

Romans 1:18-21

King James Version (KJV)

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

Good verses men are responsible before God and without excuse...

You mean they are going to be held accountable for the revelation?

Very good, Iconoclast, I can see this thread is indeed helping.

but they are truth suppressors which I said to you and you denied it...

You mean those that God justifies for being in obedience to His revelation of Himself, which say has nothing to do with His love for the world?

There is no suppression, only obedience which leads to justification.

I will show it when we get to that post.

No, actually you won't, not without wresting Scripture as you have been doing.

But we can expose that too.

Do you deny you posted that?

Why would I do that. I stand by most everything I have said. Granted I'm tired, and not up to par, but I still deny they are truth suppressors.

Would you like to change your statement now?

Nope.

Would you?

Romans 2:14-15

King James Version (KJV)

14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another)

I commented on this, and yet this does not save anyone...heathen gentiles do not KEEP the law and you falsely stated.

So the Heathen Gentiles can be justified and said to fulfill the Law...don't keep the Law.

Is there another Law they keep by which they are justified?

For your information, Abraham was a Heathen Gentile before he was called.

There is only one reason why we love God...because He first loved us.

God initiates salvation, not man.

This is one of the few things you posted correctly.

And I wish you believed it. But your teachers Calvin and Arminius have you so confused you don't even know what you believe.

And the longer this goes on you will begin forgetting what you said. That's what happens when people engage in lies, amigo, they begin saying things that come back to haunt them.

Sorry, I do not see Elect in this verse...

Do you hate the teaching of election?

Not at all. Just your version of it, lol.

John 3:16


If one wants to rewrite Scripture and remove the love of God for the world, have at it.

no...we just understand the verse

Clearly you do not.

No amount of cheerleading is going to make your doctrine compatible with what is written. What you have is "Ye have heard it said."

You have bypassed "But I say unto you."


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

I had posted from romans 8...that nothing can separate US from the love of God, to which you said

Quote:
Completely irrelevant.

And I stand by that.

Again...the OP:

We know what the bible says in John 3:16, so does that mean that He loves every single person? If so, and only those who get saved are those who are predestined/chosen, how is this love manifest for the not predestined/chosen?

What part of "not predestined/chosen" do you not understand?

You are suggesting that the non-elect cannot be separated from the Love of God?

Not sure I would go that far, but again...the context is pre-salvific, not pos-salvific.

You can review my posts and see if I believe in the Eternal Security of the Believer.

Interesting because you claim God has this love for all men......

I don't claim it...Scripture makes it clear.

and yet NOTHING can separate us from this love.......

Ahem...

We know what the bible says in John 3:16, so does that mean that He loves every single person? If so, and only those who get saved are those who are predestined/chosen, how is this love manifest for the not predestined/chosen?

Explain how you believe this despite what paul teaches ,

Paul doesn't teach that God's love is restrained from men who have not also had the revelation of God provided them, that's how, lol.

or in your theological JUDGEMENT IT IS COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT....LOL

Bingo.

I guess we'll talk about this another fifty times.

The only thing completely irrelevant is your ideas that stand opposed to the truth.

Your truth, that is for certain.

Could you please quote whatever it is that you derived this conclusion from, lol.

it was Romans 8 take a look...it might illuminate you.

Actually, we can put the context back right here and see once again the dishonest nature of your communication with others:

Originally Posted by Iconoclast View Post
and yet your teaching says that multitudes do get separated from it

Could you please quote whatever it is that you derived this conclusion from, lol.

Quote me saying this, even intimating it.

I do not presume to speak about that which is not clearly set forth in Scripture.

And you can debate what I say, but falsifying a statement because you cannot address what is said is a poor tactic.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

:thumbs::wavey::thumbs: I am hardly trying...

Truer words I don't think you have uttered since we have entered into discussion.

just stating truth and posting what was posted in the correct sequence that he wanted...

And the record will show the falsehood of this one.

his posts speak for themselves

Hey thanks. I thought so too but I am a little tired. Prone to make mistakes when I'm tired. I'm only almost human, after all.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Originally Posted by blessedwife318 View Post
So anytime people fix spelling mistakes in post they quote it is being dishonest? Wow I missed that one, must be in Hezekiah somewhere.
If this was a formal setting sure it would be expected that you would leave it as is and put sic in, but this is an internet forum not a college paper. Did he change what she said? Seems like a petty issue to get so worked up over.


He has nothing else so he looks to make a personal attack.

The record shows you did not quote what she said.

You can't even be honest about that.

Me, I have to quesation anyone that thinks it is helpful to lie to people, and let them lie to them.

His falsehood and agenda are being exposed.

Yup.

You are just too good.

Well, except the falsehood thing, And the sloppy and slothful quoting, which after ten thousand posts ha not motivated you to get off your duff and educate yourself so you do not make your antagonists do all your work.

page after page he accused all of us

Post the accusation, and why it is in error.

Oh, that's right, that's what you are trying to do, lol. And still having to rely on smokescreen.

and post by post he is being exposed .

Again...in your widest dreams. lol

pay attention to when he says a verse is not relevant and yet,,,,each of them are quite relevant.

Yes, do pay attention.

Please.

I can't get Iconoclast to.

read earlier in the day how he said I would run away..

You did. Ran into another thread because there was so much you had already bypassed, and surprise surprise...you're still doing it.

This is nothing but an attempt to save face.

How you doing with that amigo?

Dc...you might need to re-think that one.....

I will get the chance, seeing as I have to address the same things over, and over, and over...

Think of that Calgon show (ues folks, I know it's a commercial, but remember the attention span being dealt with).

I will sleep soon as I will drive from Knoxville, through ala. through miss. through Louisiana , and into Texas tomorrow...

And I wish you a sound sleep, safe travels, and happy trails.

so do not say I am hiding or anything else.....

Bothers you, doesn't it. You wouldn't have that on your conscience if you had just responded to the posts in the first thread, but now we get to examine your word-craft in two of them.

How's that going for you?

I am just getting started

I see that. I must warn you, though, that because I know what I believe and you are making it up as you go, the more you say, the easier this gets for me.

Never fails.

I haven't been debating the same things with the same people for ten thousand posts.

and will add many more scriptures

Many more? Kind of over-calculating what you have already presented, aren't you?

and show your foul posting as time permits....

I'm not the one crying foul, lol.

Nor crying on other's shoulders.

it is not a rush,or a race....

Well, I can't hold your hand forever, I have other forums to find new IWannaClash, er, Iconoclasts on.

perhaps if you read some of the responses and look at the verses you might see something you missed

Every post, word for word, and then some.

I don't think anyone will charge me, with a straight face or a shred of integrity...

...with not reading your posts.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

In post 24 you offered this;

Quote:
Colossians 1:4-6

King James Version (KJV)

4 Since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus, and of the love which ye have to all the saints,

5 For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel;

6 Which is come unto you, as it is in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as it doth also in you, since the day ye heard of it, and knew the grace of God in truth:

God does not restrain His love from anyone, though He will, I believe, withdraw the opportunity of salvation when they reject the truth given them. This is true in Old Testament Economies, and even more true now that the Gospel of Christ is the revelation God is providing men through the Ministry of the Comforter.

That men can be brought to an understanding of the Gospel through this ministry and reject it without being regenerated seems all to clear in this passage...

Good verses ...that again do not prove your point...

They absolutely do.

For one thing, it shows that the Gospel went to those who were not saved. Now show me a verse that says the non-elect are excluded.

Scripture has been very consistent on this point.

Secondly, this is not the only verse showing that the Gospel goes out to all men...everywhere.

Third, we still have that pesky internal witness by which the Heathen Gentiles perform the works of the Law because God has written the Law itself on their hearts.

I guess you think, since you exclude God's love for man and His will that all men everywhere should repent...that God sent that internal witness t save some, but just to annoy the snickers out of atheists?

They deny the Law of God as well as the effectiveness of the Word of God as well.

It's nothing new:


Romans 10:13-18

King James Version (KJV)

13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.

Notice that not all have obeyed.

Who is that Iconoclast?

If not the non-elect refusing to obey the revelation provided by God, and this clearly stated to be the result of His love for man.

As I have said before, all men will be judged according to their obedience to the revelation provided them, and this is a general principle that starts in Genesis and ends in Revelation.

the word love is used of the love of the "saints for each other"...that is a good thing....it just does not help you.

Colossians 1:4-6

King James Version (KJV)

4 Since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus, and of the love which ye have to all the saints,

5 For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel;

6 Which is come unto you, as it is in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as it doth also in you, since the day ye heard of it, and knew the grace of God in truth:


Okay class, listen up: irrelevant.

Notice that this does not nullify what is said in vv.5-6.


John 13:35

King James Version (KJV)

35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.


I guess you don't see all men here either.

And in the larger context of the discussion, I guess it's time to throw this in again:

We know what the bible says in John 3:16, so does that mean that He loves every single person? If so, and only those who get saved are those who are predestined/chosen, how is this love manifest for the not predestined/chosen?

Of course, those who accept the Word of God as it is written have only to look at...


John 3:16

King James Version (KJV)

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

vs 6 speaks of the gospel going worldwide...that also is great....God's elect are scattered worldwide!

You still have not nullified the intent of the passage.


Let me help you with another distinction made of the Elect:


6 Which is come unto you, as it is in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as it doth also in you, since the day ye heard of it, and knew the grace of God in truth:

Green represents Elect, Red represents those not saved, and all still means...all.

the great commission is worldwide...to gather in the elect children....
__________________

So where does the Lord here, or in any passage teach a select audience:


Matthew 28:19

King James Version (KJV)

19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:


Good thing you're not a fulltime Missionary, I can see where your doctrine would cause you some confusion. I mean, trying to figure out who is Elect and who is not, so you don't violate the nonsense you call a theological view.

Your doctrine would conflict with Christ's command to teach all nations.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Originally Posted by Darrell C View Post
Finally, you do a good post.

Oh...never mind.


God bless.

Glad to see your keeping your sense of humor.

What can I say...it's a curse. Gets me in trouble sometimes, and I am sure there are a choice few who would like to see me lose it, but so foar...so good, lol.

notice we are going through verse by verse..post by post....

Actually, no, I haven't noticed that. I notice you have improved somewhat, but you are still so sloppy that probably many avoid answering your posts just because they know what to expect.

But me, I don't like to give up on people.

So once again, and this is really easy, and might actually save you quite a bit of time...

When you quote, copy and paste the code immediately above the first part of what is quoted. This example has your name in it but when you quote my post, it will have my name in it.

It looks like this (though I am substituting the brackets with parentheses):

(

not hiding or escaping.....

Yes, you are. In plain sight, howbeit, but your evasion of Scripture is clear to any who view the discussion with any modicum of honesty.

have you commented on the Covenants yet as far as God's love is concerned , or do you intend to ignore them.....

You have to earn the right to ask questions. When you begin dealing with me in an honest manner, perhaps a topic which is more complicated than "How is God's love manifest unto the Non-Elect" might be something I might discuss with you.

But you're evasion has left me still wanting for that fine exegesis of the Scripture and the points and the questions you have thus far...ran away from.

Smokescreen, deflection, and an obvious unwilling attitude to be honest and just address the Scripture makes you a caricature of an antagonist.


God bless.

 

[blessedwife318]

Since apparently sleeping now is considered running away and avoiding questions I figured I would at least answer you here, your other 3 non spam replies on another thread will have to wait since I do have church and other things going on today.

Instead of just jumping in with your clique, try actually reading the post.




You need to work on your humor...also.

No I really don't need to work on my humor, because it is not funny to call someone a liar and point out someone else's spelling mistakes especially when that person is not involved in this thread.

You missed the point, and to be honest, I expect the same level of integrity from you as I am seeing in the rest of these guys.

No I did not miss the point, you had to find something to throw at Icon and spelling was the best you could come up with. Although I do thank you for the complement.

If you can honestly say that you think Iconoclast is being honest, then I am not going to be surprised.

After reading as of last night all 11 pages in the thread this one spun off of, I actually think it was good for Icon to start a new thread and maybe Judith's thread will stop being hijacked. I actually felt sorry for her and how she and her question and later clarifications statement were treated.

If you had read the post you would already know.

Know how off topic that thread had gotten, and the point of a new thread? Yes I got that.

Why do you think the spelling was pointed out.

Because you had nothing else to throw at him.

Do you really think spelling is that much of a matter to me?

Apparently.

Am I the one who pointed out your convent theology?

I don't have time to go back and look at all our interactions but I do believe I said first that I have been looking into covenant theology, although I could be wrong.

It isn't but the fact that someone can lie through his teeth and gain support from professing Christians...is reprehensible.

Well all interactions are out there for all to see, so people can look at the record and see if someone is lying.

There is not way you can agree with the premise of the thread and maintain your integrity. No way at all.

Well I figure its only forum edicate to start a new thread when it is clear that another thread is being hijacked so that the original thread can maybe get back on topic.

The quoting is sloppy the theology worse, and you are not helping him by supporting him, just as you do not help anyone by not saying what is on your heart

.

Welcome to the internet. There is only one person on earth who is entitled to hear what is on my heart and it is not you. How much I choose to share online is up to me.

So go back and read the post and see if he quoted word for word as he claims.

Would it make any difference if I could show he did?

God bless

 

[Rippon]

Acts 17:29-31


30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.


All means all, men means men, and every where mean everywhere.

No, as a matter of fact that is not true. In the above-referenced passage it does mean everyone, but there are a lot of places where it is directed to a limited number of people.

I notice that you had no response when I gave Mark 1:37;5:20;11:32.

Also, you had no reply to Matthew 20:28;Mark 10:45 and 14:24 where mention is made of many.

Christ did not teach that some men in certain places would be convicted by the Comforter.

As Icon said, the Bible doesn't say that all people are savingly convicted by the Holy Spirit.

 

[Rippon]

Good thing you're not a fulltime Missionary, I can see where your doctrine would cause you some confusion. I mean, trying to figure out who is Elect and who is not, so you don't violate the nonsense you call a theological view.

Icono has never said or indicated that he engages intrying to figure out who is, and who is not elect. That paragraph of yours is disgusting.

Your doctrine would conflict with Christ's command to teach all nations.

No, it does not. He has said that the elect are scattered world-wide. He believes in the free proclamation of the Word. For you to manufacture falsehoods against him indicates you are desperate.

God bless.

How hollow that rings after belittling someone so often.

 

[Darrell C]

Since apparently sleeping now is considered running away and avoiding questions I figured I would at least answer you here, your other 3 non spam replies on another thread will have to wait since I do have church and other things going on today.



No I really don't need to work on my humor, because it is not funny to call someone a liar and point out someone else's spelling mistakes especially when that person is not involved in this thread.





No I did not miss the point, you had to find something to throw at Icon and spelling was the best you could come up with. Although I do thank you for the complement.


After reading as of last night all 11 pages in the thread this one spun off of, I actually think it was good for Icon to start a new thread and maybe Judith's thread will stop being hijacked. I actually felt sorry for her and how she and her question and later clarifications statement were treated.





Know how off topic that thread had gotten, and the point of a new thread? Yes I got that.



Because you had nothing else to throw at him.


Apparently.


I don't have time to go back and look at all our interactions but I do believe I said first that I have been looking into covenant theology, although I could be wrong.



Well all interactions are out there for all to see, so people can look at the record and see if someone is lying.



Well I figure its only forum edicate to start a new thread when it is clear that another thread is being hijacked so that the original thread can maybe get back on topic.


.

Welcome to the internet. There is only one person on earth who is entitled to hear what is on my heart and it is not you. How much I choose to share online is up to me.



Would it make any difference if I could show he did?

Hmm, seems my words come true.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Originally Posted by Darrell C View Post


Acts 17:29-31

King James Version (KJV)

29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.


All means all, men means men, and every where mean everywhere.


No, as a matter of fact that is not true.

Well lets get a second opinion on that:

In the above-referenced passage it does mean everyone, but there are a lot of places where it is directed to a limited number of people.

So it is true that this passage shows that God commands all men everywhere to repent.

Thanks for verifying that for me. And denying it.

Does it make you dizzy when you do that?

I would imagine it would absolutely make me sick.

I notice that you had no response when I gave Mark 1:37;5:20;11:32.

Also, you had no reply to Matthew 20:28;Mark 10:45 and 14:24 where mention is made of many.

And I am still waiting to hear about that vociferous host in Hell.

But if you want to provide the post where these are found, I will take a look to see how it is you justify canceling out part of Scripture to continue teaching the doctrines of men.

Should be interesting.

In fact I ran across it while I was seeking out the posts so I could know the context.

Coming up.

Quote:
Christ did not teach that some men in certain places would be convicted by the Comforter.

As Icon said, the Bible doesn't say that all people are savingly convicted by the Holy Spirit.

Again, like your friend, no source.

So I am expected to weed through all of the posts and match something somewhere.

Well, so be it. And because you have showed a little more effort than your friends, I will oblige you on this:

Originally Posted by Iconoclast View Post

Quote:
Are you going to say that only the Elect are brought under conviction?

Many men are convicted by the Spirit but many are not savingly convicted as are the elect.

Many? Scripture says the world, and all men.

Christ did not teach that some men in certain places would be convicted by the Comforter.

Now let's look at your statement:

Quote:
Christ did not teach that some men in certain places would be convicted by the Comforter.

As Icon said, the Bible doesn't say that all people are savingly convicted by the Holy Spirit.

And that is what generated the question.

Where exactly do you see many in this passage...

Originally Posted by Iconoclast View Post

Quote:
that He sent His Son to die in their stead.

As the atonement was perfect and accomplished redemption in the stead of its objects , o0nly the elect could be it's objects as they alone are saved

They are not saved before they are saved. They stand on equal ground with all men until their understanding is enlightened by God and they yield in obedience to the Gospel.

Are you going to say that only the Elect are brought under conviction?


John 16:7-9

King James Version (KJV)

7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;

...?


Let's see your statement again...

Quote:
Christ did not teach that some men in certain places would be convicted by the Comforter.

As Icon said, the Bible doesn't say that all people are savingly convicted by the Holy Spirit.

But Scripture says that the world will come under the Convicting Ministry of the Holy Spirit.

And that is exactly how every man has ever been ministered to.

Let me introduce you to some real infidels that were ministered to by the Holy Spirit:


Acts 7:51-54

King James Version (KJV)

51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:

53 Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.

54 When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth.



Let me know if you would like to meet some more. In fact, can I ask you just to give it a little thought, and see if you can think of some unbelievers God's Word makes clear received the revelation of God?

Seriously. You can do it if you just think about it a little.

And when you can show me "many" in the passage you volunteered your commentary on, I'll be here waiting.

 

[Darrell C]

Originally Posted by Darrell C View Post


Good thing you're not a fulltime Missionary, I can see where your doctrine would cause you some confusion. I mean, trying to figure out who is Elect and who is not, so you don't violate the nonsense you call a theological view.

Icono has never said or indicated that he engages intrying to figure out who is, and who is not elect.

Of course not.

Doesn't invalidate the statement, which is, I will remind you, an assessment after having dealt with a number of posts in succession.

That paragraph of yours is disgusting.

Get over it.

How about searching through some of those poor excuse for response and putting together a reasonable understanding of his doctrine, and then explain that why in both threads there have been numerous passages which he has avoided.

And don't expect kid gloves when you someone has not exactly been Mr. Manners, lol. I know you are in the habit of excusing those you have respect for, but at least give an honest assessment all the way around.

I can't remember questioning anybody's salvation, for example, only their doctrine. Yet twice in this thread mine has been questioned (and again, if a Moderator peeks in, I take no offense, it was emotion speaking and no harm done and I just mention it to make a point) and...I am an antichrist destined for Hell.

Because I won't roll over and get with the program. Excuse me...y'alls program that is.

Quote:
Your doctrine would conflict with Christ's command to teach all nations.

No, it does not.

Yes, in fact it does, because he, nor you, can seem to comprehend that the Comforter ministers to the unbelieving world.

You want to make it many. Instead of the world.

You want to deny all men everywhere. "That is just not the context, the context speaks only of the Elect!"

You deny that every man is bestowed with revelation of God, and that God judges based upon a man's obedience to that revelation.

And when Christ Himself teaches about the revelation of the Gospel, the Indwelling and Eternal Spirit...

...you want to change His words too.

Incredible. I don't know how else to describe it.

So yes, doctrine like that would come into conflict with the Great Commission, and you guys...

...example that perfectly.

He has said that the elect are scattered world-wide.

I don't care about your piece-mealing an excuse together...that is irrelevant.

Here is what is relevant my friend...


John 16:7-9

King James Version (KJV)

7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;


...no "many."

Just the world.


John 3:16

King James Version (KJV)

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.


...no "many."

Just the world.

He believes in the free proclamation of the Word.

Great, then you guys will agree with what the Word actually states:


Acts 17:29-31

King James Version (KJV)

29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.


And again, no "many."

Just the world.

For you to manufacture falsehoods against him indicates you are desperate.

Do you count this as one of them?

Consider it addressed and go scavenge some more examples.

Not going to hold my breath you guys actually want to have a Doctrinal Discussion, lol.

God bless.

How hollow that rings after belittling someone so often.

Well, if I have hurt your feelings, I do apologize, but how I sign off on my posts is at my own discretion, and stands a little bit better than calling one an antichrist and condemning them to Hell, lol, which is not actually Hell, by the way...but Hades...at this current time. So forgive me if I find that humorous but really, I'm not kidding...you pseudo-Calvinists literally crack me up.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

DC: Address these points:

Mark 1:37 says :"everyone is looking for you!"

Every single person on the earth at that time? Of course not. And it excludes the millions who had already died before that statement was made. And it excludes the billions who were not living when that was said.

Okay, first valid point in this statement:

!

In fact that is the only thing in the post that can properly be called a valid point.

Nevertheless, since you have been so gracious throughout this thread, I will add that the words zēteō and anthrōpos are not quite the same, though I will give you a pas on this one.

Mark 5:20 : "all the people were amazed."

The same thing applies as I said above.

Here, a I think mentioned once in all of this mess, it seems men does not mean men.

So I'll give you another pas and say that this statement is lacking a valid ! but I will admit you have gotten at least half of what you were hoping for.

Mark 11:32 : "everyone held that John really was a prophet."

Ditto.

Here, I am not sure why the ek anthropos is here, but again, you are halfway to meeting your goal.

The KJV likes to use the expression "all men" --in those three passages and many more. But it really needs to be broughty to your attention that you are ignoring the context to support your man-made tradition.

And every word in the Word of God was put there for an intended purpose, which I am sure was not simply that I might be amused at your efforts. And I am not in the KJVonlyist camp, though I have a great reverence for the KJV translators, who inspire me in viewing those who seem popish as a threat to the Word of God. The Original Preface is a great sermon, check it out sometime.

And I guess, since I am always wrong, and the general consensus agrees you guys are right, I will have to bow to your superior knowledge of the Word of God.

Right?

I mean that's only fair, right? Clearly you have given this much thought and who am I to say that a System of Theology might have some errors, or, that those who have embraced that System might themselves have misunderstood their own System.

Matthew 20:28 :"to give his life for many"
Mark 10:45 :"to give his life as a ransom for many"
Mark 14:24 :"This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many"

Sounds just a little like this...


Romans 5:18

King James Version (KJV)

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.


So as not to sound like broken record, I have used some different colors this time in hopes maybe you might see these in a different light.

You have constantly claimed that world is world.

And each time I provided both passage and context.

You have claimed that everyone is everyone.

Quote me saying that.

You have claimed that all men means all men.

Quote me saying that, and you might see why proper quoting procedure will help you out.

You have consistently ignored the context where these expressions are used in various translations. So now, how do you handle the expression "for many"?

On the contrary, the public record will show that context has been given the utmost attention, and that nothing has been ignored.

How do I handle many?

Same way I did in the previous texts.

And you would have me post that Scripture again?

The argument is not really relevant, because unlike the charge of Universalism that has been levied by one of my fine antagonists, I have not once even intimated that I hold to this view.

But I tell you what, just to keep thing fresh, you go search through the posts and see if you can find me saying that, and see if perhaps someone else might be in need of rebuke for falsely charging someone else with something that isn't true, instead of just me, and in the meantime I will post another verse that also does not have to mean all men:



Mark 2:15

King James Version (KJV)

15 And it came to pass, that, as Jesus sat at meat in his house, many publicans and sinners sat also together with Jesus and his disciples: for there were many, and they followed him.


Wait, what's that...publicans and sinners following Christ?

And are you sure you meant "many?" You didn't mean Mene, did you?

Let me know, I am sure we could work that into the context of this thread somehow.

And I apologize for making you wait for this.


God bless.

 

[Rippon]

So it is true that this passage shows that God commands all men everywhere to repent.

Of course it's true that Acts 17:30 refers to all people everywhere to repent.

Thanks for verifying that for me. And denying it.

I have not denied it --you are lying.

Does it make you dizzy when you do that?

I would imagine it would absolutely make me sick.

You are indeed sick. I have told you that "all men" or "everyone" and wordings like that are often in reference to a limited number of people. Sometimes it means each and every such as "For all have sinned..."

It depends on the context --something that you ignore in your cookie-cutter approach.

 

[Rippon]

Doesn't invalidate the statement, which is, I will remind you, an assessment after having dealt with a number of posts in succession.

Your "assessments" are strange. Again, Icon has never said or indicated that he can figure out who the elect are and who are not. Don't say false things.

you pseudo-Calvinists literally crack me up.

Well, from your neo-orthodox perspective --How so? You would surprise me with a detailed answer.

 

[Iconoclast]

Hmm, seems my words come true.


God bless.

you made two major mistakes today in your posting as well as the other nauseating posts
I'll be able to address them in about an hour and a half

 

[Iconoclast]

Darrell C
Romans 1:18-21

Good verses men are responsible before God and without excuse...but they are truth suppressors which I said to you and you denied it...I will show it when we get to that post. Do you deny you posted that? Would you like to change your statement now?

Truth suppressors, eh?

Yes they are truth suppressors...you denied this and question it now.


Here you denied it in post 35;
[QUOTEQuote:
Originally Posted by Iconoclast View Post
This revelation does not inform them of the saving love of God as all men are truth suppressors.

That is not even relevant, even if it were true, which it is not][/QUOTE]

here you go;Greek: Apokaluptetai (3SPPI) gar orge theou ap' ouranou epi pasan asebeian kai adikian anthropon ton ten aletheian en adikia| katechontin, (PAPMPG)
Amplified: For God's [holy] wrath and indignation are revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who in their wickedness repress and hinder the truth and make it inoperative. (Amplified Bible - Lockman)
NLT: But God shows his anger from heaven against all sinful, wicked people who push the truth away from themselves. (NLT - Tyndale House)
Phillips: Now the holy anger of God is disclosed from Heaven against the godlessness and evil of those men who render truth dumb and inoperative by their wickedness. (Phillips: Touchstone)
Wuest: For there is revealed God’s wrath from heaven upon every lack of reverence and upon every unrighteousness of men who in unrighteousness are holding down the truth. (Eerdmans)
Young's Literal: for revealed is the wrath of God from heaven upon all impiety and unrighteousness of men, holding down the truth in unrighteousness.

So you feel God is incapable of leading men through the internal witness and testimony of creation to obedience, is that what you are saying?

The internal wtness and light of creation show there is a God.
It does not inform them of the cross.
Most men and woman have lived and died without that knowledge...

However....that was not what I was speaking about, so I do not need you as a spokesmen....all of you guys do this...

I was speaking about what the text actually says. You boast much about wanting to use scripture but in every case it does not teach what you want it to.

[ 2,,G2722, katecho ]
"to hold firmly, hold fast" (kata, "down," and No. 1), is rendered "hold fast" in 1 Corinthians 11:2, RV (AV, "keep"); 1 Thessalonians 5:21; Hebrews 3:6, Hebrews 3:14 (RV); Hebrews 10:23; "hold down," Romans 1:18, RV, of unrighteous men who restrain the spread of truth by their unrighteousness, or, as RV marg., "who hold the truth in (or with) unrighteousness," contradicting their profession by their conduct (cp. Romans 2:15, RV); in Romans 7:6, RV, "holden," AV, "held," of the Law as that which had "held" in bondage those who through faith in Christ were made dead to it as a means of life.

Which confirms my point that you are a pseudo-Calvinist who does an injustice to the Sovereignty of God.

Your name calling impresses no one.



Romans 2:12-15


I'll walk you through this, because I want you to see your open hostility to the Word of God and His Sovereignty, as well as how this shows His love expressed and manifested to...and in sinners.

Now note v.13. You agree with Scripture that it clearly states those that are doers of the Law shall be justified, correct?

Not the way you are about to abuse it...no I do not agree with you.

You don't, not really, but again, hang in there:

No..because you are about to proclaim a gospel of works.

Romans 2:12-15

13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another)

Now it is Gentiles said to do, by nature, the things contained in the Law, and that they are a Law unto themselves, right? You agree, right?

Well, not really, you don't. But hang in there, we're almost done:

Not with you no...I do not agree , because you are going to make a heretical statement.

Romans 2:12-15

King James Version (KJV)

Now you agree that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, so you would agree they do the works of the Law, and that the Law is written on their hearts, right?

Well, unfortunately, you don't, but don't despair at your anti-biblical nature...you can have your mind changed by the Word of God. It's true

.

This is just more scripture you are going to abuse in your next paragraph..i will make it large print for you as I expose your error...so you do not miss it.:thumbsup:

Because what this tells us, amigo, is that in view are Gentiles who benefit from the grace of God Who,

because of His love for them[/B]...justifies them because they are obedient to the works of the Law written on their hearts.[/B

So you claim that God justifies gentiles BECAUSE THEY ARE OBEDIENT TO THE LAW........????

HERE IS SOME HELP FOR YOU;

16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law,

but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ,

and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.


This you have posted...as posted is the heretical position of a works gospel.

That was your first major blunder....now I will show why you do this...in part:thumbsup:

 

[Iconoclast]

Darrell C

Another tidbit not in the original post.

Shame...shame.

Looking at the confession of faith is very instructive...it would supply much of what you lack

Oh, so you are going to question my salvation too, eh?

Again, not offended, it is simply the tactic of losers.

Here is your second major blunder of you recent musings......No one was talking about your salvation at all.....so all your whining and complaining about this is because of your lack of reading comprehension...no wonder you are void of truth

Here is what was being discussed;

Originally Posted by Iconoclast View Post
Quote:
You have effectively nullified Ephesians 2:8-10.

We are saved by grace through faith, not of works, and that not of ourselves.

Well obviously this has not taken place.

You claimed I nullified eph 2:8-10....I said this has not taken place....how does that even speak of your "professed salvation"...


By the way...in post 61 and in other posts...why was it necessary to post rom2....4times in a row.....Rippon pointed out how you are longwinded and repetitive....Post once and offer 4 comments....no one is going to read repetitive posting.