Negativism at Home Could Produce Defeat Of U.S. Policy in Iraq

[ASLANSPAL]

Originally posted by KenH:
The Vietnam lost every major battle they fought with U.S. troops. We didn't lose militarily. We lost because of people like Jane Fonda, John Kerry, and people like you who listened to their propaganda at the time.

Pure scapegoating KenH and projecting blame on
others that did not cause anything!duh John
Kerry actually fought the Vietmanese and killed!


I actually encourage healing and going to the place where a lot of memories can bring reconciliation...I agree with Jesus ..that God
is the God of reconciliation..and btw you don't
have any clue what I listen too ..again you want
to cast labels to puff yourself up who has the
answers ..well guess what KenH you don't!
All you want to do is hang on to demagoguery and
the guy on the street corner saying "look at me!"

so an unwinnable war which most historians would
agree with should not have been protested?!

We blew it especially with the Ho Chi Minh letters!

Most Vietnamese did not care who punched their
ticket to get rid of an occupier ..whether it
be communist, fascist , or other...THEY WERE
TIRED OF OCCUPIERS ..THEY WERE UNITED IN GETTING
THEM OUT! THE UNITED STATES PROLONGED THE ENVITEABLE BY WINNING BATTLES, THE VIETMANESE
REFUSED TO GIVE UP EVEN AFTER HORRIFIC LOSES..now
that says a lot.

We did lose tactically we actually should have
taken acreage preferablily up north...a tactical
error but the Vietmanese really were skilled and
adapt at guerilla and jungel fighting and imho
they were tiger!intent to rid the country of
foreigners.


If you want consolation and a pat on the back
we prevented Thailand and others becoming
communist..so another thing of honor we should
hold on to and reconcile with the rest.

 

[Dragoon68]

Originally posted by ASLANSPAL:
Most Vietnamese did not care who punched their ticket to get rid of an occupier ..whether it be communist, fascist , or other...THEY WERE TIRED OF OCCUPIERS ..THEY WERE UNITED IN GETTING THEM OUT! THE UNITED STATES PROLONGED THE ENVITEABLE BY WINNING BATTLES, THE VIETMANESE REFUSED TO GIVE UP EVEN AFTER HORRIFIC LOSES..now that says a lot.

We did lose tactically we actually should have taken acreage preferably up north...a tactical error but the Vietmanese really were skilled and adapt at guerilla and jungel fighting and imho they were tiger!intent to rid the country of foreigners.

The Vietnamese nationalists were determined to get out from under the colonial rule of the French and the end of World War II provided that opportunity. We supported that goal. We did not "occupy" Viet Nam in the sense of France, Japan, and China before. The Vietnamese in the South welcomed our help and we gave them a lot of it for a number of years. America doesn't belong in the same category as France. We weren't there to milk the country of it's resources and labor! We were there to help them become independent through free elections avoiding Communism - our arch enemy of the times - at all costs. Vietnamese didn't want a permanent force of foreign soldiers in their nation - no one does - but they were real glad we were there to help them.

You seem to have the idea that all Vietnamese supported the Communist movement and were, somehow, united against us. You seem to think they didn't care which side they took so long as it was against the foreign occupiers. This isn't correct at all! Some were more concerned with tending their land, crops, or animals that politics and did "smile" at whomever came along. Many Vietnamese - those who could see beyond the immediate needs - did care a lot about which path was taken to independence. Ho Chi Minh didn't have universal support even in his home base especially at the beginning. There were many opinions about what to do and who's help to seek. You seem to ignore the fact that the nation was divided in half with two forms of government, society, and military forces. You contention that they were completed united is untrue and entirely different than the majority supporting independence. Those in the South were, far and away, anti Communist. Their military had short comings but many of them were excellent warriors and fought very hard for their cause. Many of them paid dearly for it especially in the ten years immediately following the end of the war. Viet Kieu are strongly anti Communist to this day and long for the day their homeland will be rid of them. Those living here are also very loyal Americans and proud of what their old country was about and what we did to help.

The North Vietnamese were persistent and patient in their quest. They had on-going support from China or Russia or both at various times. They believed in their cause because that's all they were told in typical Communist style and they were sent South to fight without much choice in the matter. Many, upon "liberation" of the South were shocked to see how the people there actually lived. They came believing that had been starved and oppressed by the Americans. Then they flocked South swelling the cities of that half of Viet Nam because of the better standard of living there.

We fought the war that was dealt to us and were limited in how far we could pursue the enemy. Some of this was to avoid escalation through involvement of China or Russia. Many have advocated that we should have invaded the North, continued the bombing which had brought them to the negotiations, or been more aggressive in prosecution of the war. Maybe so but at the time the American public was drowning in anti-war protesters, anti-war news reports, and an overall weariness of the fighting. They didn't have the courage or will to continue it regardless what military strategy was proposed especially if it escalated into a war with another super power. Therefore we fought a prolonged war of containment which was largely - with exceptions such as the Cambodian invasion - a defensive action. Such a position does limit what can be done. We didn't take and hold territory as effectively as we should with some exceptions. It would have taken a much larger force to truly occupy the entire country. It would have required a more widely distributed force of smaller units resident in every village. During the Tet 1968 offensive we essentially broke the back of the Viet Cong forces in the South leaving the North Vietnamese Army forces as our principal opponent thereafter. We did not loose tactically in any way! By the way, we did become skilled at jungle warfare and had great success with it.

We left South Viet Nam between 1971 and 1973 through an orderly draw down of our combat forces and full turn over to the Vietnamese military. Our main goal from the beginning was to advise, train, and logistically support the Vietnamese forces so they could pursue their own war. We escalated our involvement to taking a major share of the fighting with our own combat forces for many years and then returned to a policy of Vietnamization before leaving for good. The war was lost two years later in 1975 long after we pulled out. We did leave our friends hanging and that's really sad but we - the American forces - did not loose the war on the battlefield. Our friends had their problems not the least of which was shortage of munitions and supplies. Against a fully supported endless stream of troops, equipment, and supplies from the North it was a hopeless situation. There were other short comings such as leadership failures and corruption that added to the ultimate rout in the end. Those things, however, did not reflect the will, skill, nor sacrifices made by many of South Viet Nam's military and police forces in the final months, weeks, and days of the war. Those of any level of importance who weren't killed in the fighting or executed in reprisals spent years in re-education after the war hardly because of united thinking! Their stories are known to many of us even though poorly documented in America historical works.

In all ot this their are lessons application to today's fight in Iraq. The same anti-war movement is at work now discrediting our purpose, our leadership, our methods, and our successes. It's a dangerous matter and we should know better. Some of us do.

Patrick

 

[Dragoon68]

Originally posted by ASLANSPAL:
First of all Dragoon I am a very independent minded person and vote that way ..you can cast labels all you want to hang on to your bias and hurt but I really did look into the historical record.

The historical record in this subject area you present is seriously flawed and dripping with liberal anti-war bias. The "hurt" you write about maybe your own. Liberals don't like it when their glass-house theories get broken by truths especially from those who've lived them.

Don't get the additional phoney idea you're the only independently minded person around here. I conclude that most of us posting here are very independently minded which, per se, makes us neither right nor wrong on the subject matters.

Write what you think Aslanspal but don't except it to go unchallenged. I don't about what I write.

Patrick

 

[Dragoon68]

Originally posted by Plain Old Bill:
Amen Patrick!
Fact, we are in the war in Iraq,regardless of how we got there. Now that we are there we OWE it to the Iraqi people to follow through by helping them finish setting up thier government and making them FULLY capable of self defense.We also need to help them rebuild thier infra-structure just as we did in Japan and Germany.

Fact contrary to popular belief and what is written in some history books foriegn and domestic,no war has ever been executed without a multitude of mistakes, so we need to get over the fact that this one is'nt running perfectly either.As hard as it might be for some of us we need to suck it up and show support for not only our troops but also our president.He has enough people beating him up already.We need to understand the seriousness of the situation. The Jihadists and Al queda do not understand that Americans almost make a hobby out of bickering about thier government. Bin Laden is of the opinion that when we see enough blood we will quit.If we do that we will see terrorism like we have never seen or dreamed of because we will have proved him right and given him license to do what he wants when he wants to do it.Thier ultimate stated goal is to kill all of the Saturday peple first(Jews)and all of the sunday people next(Christians),that is thier form of evangelism.I truly wish this were not the case but we have no options regardless of what we think or what kind of rhetoric we put out.

Your comments reflect wisdom and a depth of understanding lacking in many these days!

I hope our nation will have the courage and the will to continue. I believe they do deep inside. I think if more people with a clear mind will speak out on this the chances of that happening will improve. That's the "war" some of us old warriors now have to fight for those that have followed us. The loud-mouth liberal anti-war views prevail in the news media so it can be a challenge.

Patrick

 

[Plain Old Bill]

I know what we don't need is Sam Donaldson,Dan Rather,Ted Kennedy,or John Kerry.These guys and those who go along with them are the weak links in our chain.

 

[Plain Old Bill]

By the way thanks for your very kind comment Dragoon68.

 

[ASLANSPAL]

Dragoon you keep blaming and blaming but right
in front of your face you let Ann Coulter get
away with murder ..yet nothing from you perhaps
its because you have an ideaology that prevents
you from laying a glove on Ms. Coulter.

She actually said this

On the Vietnam War:

To disabled Vietnam vet Bobby Muller: "No wonder you guys lost." - MSNBC, 1996


To a disabled Vietnam vet: "People like you caused us to lose that war."---MSNBC

Bobby Muller
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.
Bobby Muller served as a Marine Lieutenant in Vietnam, where a bullet severed his spinal cord, leaving him paralyzed from the waist down, while he was leading an assault. After returning from Vietnam, Bobby became a staunch Veterans advocate; he founded Vietnam Veterans of America (VVA) in 1978 and Vietnam Veterans of America Foundation (VVAF) in 1980. The VVAF co-founded a 1997 Nobel Peace Prize-winning campaign to ban landmines. In 2004, Muller founded Alliance for Security.

Muller is serving as an advisory board member for a new group called Operation Truth, a nonprofit organization set up "to give voice to troops who served in Iraq."

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bobby_Muller"

Now I don't agree with Ann Coulter and I think
it was bottom feeding on what she did to this
decorated Vietnam Veteran who has a record of
heroism, but it was not his fault he lost the war
but apparently Ann Coulter believes it is his fault...which is my salient point it was a United
Vietnam that threw out the occupier not this
liberal group or that libertarian group or Ann
Coulter who casts blame on the soldiers.

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by ASLANSPAL:
you let Ann Coulter get away with murder

That's a very serious charge there, ASLANSPAL. I think you must back up that charge and tell us whom Ann Coulter has murdered or else repent and retract your statement.

 

[Dragoon68]

Originally posted by ASLANSPAL:
Dragoon you keep blaming and blaming but right in front of your face you let Ann Coulter get away with murder .. yet nothing from you perhaps its because you have an ideaology that prevents you from laying a glove on Ms. Coulter. ...

That's a weird response! You, obviously, don't understand anything I wrote. Nothing I wrote has anything to do with or even makes reference to Ann Coulter! You're mixing your sterotypes with realty and confusing my comments with things you've read elsewhere.

Patrick

 

[TisHerself]

Originally posted by KenH:
The Vietnam lost every major battle they fought with U.S. troops. We didn't lose militarily. We lost because of people like Jane Fonda, John Kerry, and people like you who listened to their propaganda at the time.

Oh my word! The Vietnam war was a joke! All the information we were given at the time was a joke! We even have hard evidence that the death toll numbers Westmoreland gave every day were totally trumped up! It was a fiasco because of the politicos in charge at the time and their lies! Fonda and Kerry, although young and hasty, told the truth. They could have done it in a better way, without question. But they were right in the big picture. They couldn't support the lies and nor should we.

Pardon me, but I think it is you, KenH, who has swallowed a whole bunch of that Kool Aid propaganda from the (wrong) Right.

 

[carpro]

Originally posted by TisHerself:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by KenH:
The Vietnam lost every major battle they fought with U.S. troops. We didn't lose militarily. We lost because of people like Jane Fonda, John Kerry, and people like you who listened to their propaganda at the time.

Oh my word! The Vietnam war was a joke! All the information we were given at the time was a joke! We even have hard evidence that the death toll numbers Westmoreland gave every day were totally trumped up! It was a fiasco because of the politicos in charge at the time and their lies! Fonda and Kerry, although young and hasty, told the truth. They could have done it in a better way, without question. But they were right in the big picture. They couldn't support the lies and nor should we.

Pardon me, but I think it is you, KenH, who has swallowed a whole bunch of that Kool Aid propaganda from the (wrong) Right. </font>[/QUOTE]Kerry and Fonda are both traitors. They actively worked with the enemy to defeat their own country.

 

[Dragoon68]

Originally posted by ASLANSPAL:
... Bobby Muller served as a Marine Lieutenant in Vietnam, where a bullet severed his spinal cord, leaving him paralyzed from the waist down, while he was leading an assault. After returning from Vietnam, Bobby became a staunch Veterans advocate; he founded Vietnam Veterans of America (VVA) in 1978 and Vietnam Veterans of America Foundation (VVAF) in 1980. The VVAF co-founded a 1997 Nobel Peace Prize-winning campaign to ban landmines. In 2004, Muller founded Alliance for Security. ...

I don't view Muller as a "victim" - as an example to be held up by bleeding heart liberals - but, rather, as a warrior who endures a lifetime of suffering from his wounds which are a badge of honor to the sacrifice he, and many others, made for his country. I don't agree or disagree with his political views or activities based on those wounds. Those wounds stand alone and are something any fellow veteran can respect! Viet Nam war veterans are diverse in their views about the war and in those matters we can disagree very strongly.

I disageree with Muller's political views and anitwar activities based upon the demerits of them. Muller was involved with the Vietnam Veterans Against the War (VVAW) and became a bitter opponent claiming his country "used" him. He appeared in the antiwar documentary Hearts and Minds which portrayed the enemy as underdogs struggling for peace and justice. He later became disillusioned with the VVAW when it was taken over by the Revolutionary Communist Party. He began to change his views and got tired of Viet Nam veterans being held up as "suckers", heroin addicts, and men who killed women and children. Later he formed the Vietnam Veterans of America (VVA) but kept his confrontational style of the antiwar movement. He visited the tomb of Ho Chi Minh, placed a wreath there, and proclaimed that his respect for Uncle Ho! He has equated the use of the herbicide Agent Orange - used to clear vegetation and reduce enemy cover and save American lives - with the use of deadly chemical weapons. Etc.

Out of over 9 million Viet Nam war veterans only about 12,500 joined the VVA. It, and the views of Muller, hardly represent that of most veterans. He does not represent me!

I'll end by reaffirming my respect for his badge of honor - the disabling wounds he'll carry always - and pray that his sacrifice, and that of his many peers, will never be forgotten or be in vain.

Patrick

 

[Dragoon68]

Originally posted by TisHerself:
Oh my word! The Vietnam war was a joke! All the information we were given at the time was a joke! We even have hard evidence that the death toll numbers Westmoreland gave every day were totally trumped up! It was a fiasco because of the politicos in charge at the time and their lies! Fonda and Kerry, although young and hasty, told the truth. They could have done it in a better way, without question. But they were right in the big picture. They couldn't support the lies and nor should we.

Pardon me, but I think it is you, KenH, who has swallowed a whole bunch of that Kool Aid propaganda from the (wrong) Right.

No, the Viet Nam war was very real. It wasn't a joke at all especially to the 9 million Americans who fought it in, the millions more of our allies and South Vietnamese, and the Vietnamese nation in which it was fought.

The inflated body count issue has been acknowledged as a short coming of our "accounting" in the war. That doesn't mean the body counts were always incorrect, the war was wrong, nor that the military leadership was "no good".

Fonda and Kerry, for their antiwar efforts, deserve no kudos. They failed our nation in what they did. Kerry deserves respect for his contribution as a warrior but also deserves condemnation for his exaggerations and lies - not truth - through his participation with the VVAW and other antiwar activities.

Propaganda does abound from the left about the war. The Communists love it and use it at all the time.

Patrick

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by TisHerself:
Fonda and Kerry, although young and hasty, told the truth.

 

[TisHerself]

Originally posted by Dragoon68:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by TisHerself:
Oh my word! The Vietnam war was a joke! All the information we were given at the time was a joke! We even have hard evidence that the death toll numbers Westmoreland gave every day were totally trumped up! It was a fiasco because of the politicos in charge at the time and their lies! Fonda and Kerry, although young and hasty, told the truth. They could have done it in a better way, without question. But they were right in the big picture. They couldn't support the lies and nor should we.

Pardon me, but I think it is you, KenH, who has swallowed a whole bunch of that Kool Aid propaganda from the (wrong) Right.

No, the Viet Nam war was very real. It wasn't a joke at all especially to the 9 million Americans who fought it in, the millions more of our allies and South Vietnamese, and the Vietnamese nation in which it was fought.

The inflated body count issue has been acknowledged as a short coming of our "accounting" in the war. That doesn't mean the body counts were always incorrect, the war was wrong, nor that the military leadership was "no good".

Fonda and Kerry, for their antiwar efforts, deserve no kudos. They failed our nation in what they did. Kerry deserves respect for his contribution as a warrior but also deserves condemnation for his exaggerations and lies - not truth - through his participation with the VVAW and other antiwar activities.

Propaganda does abound from the left about the war. The Communists love it and use it at all the time.

Patrick </font>[/QUOTE]Perhaps I am missing something... when someone lies do you still pick and choose what may be the truth? What did that war accomplish?

 

[ASLANSPAL]

Dragon your rants are filled with blaming this
group and blaming that group peppered with
that is revisionist history. Now along comes
Ann Coulter conservative and yet she gets a free
pass and gets away with murder with her statement.

Why does she get a free pass...is it because
a certain war hero and honorable veteran has
some views different from you and Ann Coulter?

Why not condemn Ann Coulter she actually said this!

On the Vietnam War:

To disabled Vietnam vet Bobby Muller: "No wonder you guys lost." - MSNBC, 1996


To a disabled Vietnam vet: "People like you caused us to lose that war."---MSNBC

Bobby Muller
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.
Bobby Muller served as a Marine Lieutenant in Vietnam, where a bullet severed his spinal cord, leaving him paralyzed from the waist down, while he was leading an assault. After returning from Vietnam, Bobby became a staunch Veterans advocate; he founded Vietnam Veterans of America (VVA) in 1978 and Vietnam Veterans of America Foundation (VVAF) in 1980. The VVAF co-founded a 1997 Nobel Peace Prize-winning campaign to ban landmines. In 2004, Muller founded Alliance for Security.

Muller is serving as an advisory board member for a new group called Operation Truth, a nonprofit organization set up "to give voice to troops who served in Iraq."

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bobby_Muller"


Will you condemn Ann Coulters statement or do
you accept it ..simple question.

 

[TisHerself]

Originally posted by KenH:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by TisHerself:
Fonda and Kerry, although young and hasty, told the truth.

</font>[/QUOTE]You know, I just find that rude.

If you think I am mistaken, then you should tell me so. I find your less than good sense of humor insulting. Who would Jesus laugh at?

 

[Dragoon68]

Originally posted by ASLANSPAL:
Dragon your rants are filled with blaming this group and blaming that group peppered with that is revisionist history. Now along comes Ann Coulter conservative and yet she gets a free pass and gets away with murder with her statement.

....

Will you condemn Ann Coulters statement or do you accept it ..simple question.

You're still not comprehending very well ASLANSPAL! It's you that brought up Ann Coulters comments - not me - and, right now, I feel no obligation to oblige your demand.

Patrick

 

[Dragoon68]

Originally posted by TisHerself:
Perhaps I am missing something... when someone lies do you still pick and choose what may be the truth? What did that war accomplish?

Regarding picking and choosing the truth: I try to discern the truth and untruth in what people claim about a given matter at a given time. In some subjects - especially where there's personal experience and knowledge - I find that relatively easy to do. That's why I find most antiwar commentary to be mostly lies and gross exaggerations at best.

Regarding what the war accomplished: Not nearly what it could have and should have had we brought it to a proper conclusion - a victory for democracy in Viet Nam - but at least a strong brake on the spread of Communism in Southeast Asia.

Patrick

 

[ASLANSPAL]

Okay thankyou Dragonn you really have made
your statement..in a non reply which you are
free to do...but again if you were to sit
down with Ann Coulter and you are saying this
about Vietnam and that..then all of a sudden
she states "you know if you had just done a
little better we could have won that thing ...
why did you fail"

Ann Coulter a conservative not Jane Fonda ..not
John Kerry actually said this....

On the Vietnam War:

To disabled Vietnam vet Bobby Muller: "No wonder you guys lost." - MSNBC, 1996


To a disabled Vietnam vet: "People like you caused us to lose that war."---MSNBC