New Birth Contrasts and Consequences

[The Biblicist]

T

See Its far easier to me to allow the Momma Church to do the work. Then I could retire to Tampa & take long walks on the beach.

From a Pastor's view point these words are troubling to me, not about the "Momma Church" but about the person saying them. They might indicate a spirit unsubmissive to authority especially the word "allow" as you say that as though that is your option?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

My question is, why will not any church that has taken time to get to know you and your needs refuse to help you?

The Answer I received was 'We tried plants in the past, and they didnt work'. I can give you far more historical background to it but I dont want to air dirty laundry. That's part of their own personal history. I can but say that it was a 'Learning Experience' for them (with one of their own) that they are very hesitant to repeat. so at this juncture its far better for me (in their eyes anyway) to gather up people ....and myself & commute to their Gathering Place. Now it does nothing to address the problem but ....

I personally do not know of any church in our fellowship that would not reach out and help in some way to start a church of like faith and order UNLESS the person seeking that help was not a suitable candidate (unteachable, not like faith and order, unsubmissive to authority; self-centered, etc.).

Sure, I'm being disobedient to their demands......which doesn't address the issue, it merely demands submission. Then where are we, still looking at a void area without pastoral support.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

From a Pastor's view point these words are troubling to me, not about the "Momma Church" but about the person saying them. They might indicate a spirit unsubmissive to authority especially the word "allow" as you say that as though that is your option?

When God speaks, I listen & obey. Thats not an opinion.

 

[The Biblicist]

A Missionary or a person seeking ordination must have more than mere knowledge, ability and drive going for him. He must be characterized by the chief attributes of Christ "meek and humble" and be willing to follow before he can lead. Submissive to church authority is essential in a missionary as he publicly represents that body and answers to that body for all his actions. The church is not sending him out to do things his way, but to do things as the Church of Christ directs, as they see fit, as they interpret the scriptures. If a person comes in simply to use them to promote his own agenda, no spirit led church would dare support or ordain such a man. The worst possible thing would be to support such an individual as you are more than likely going to reproduce a congregation just like him - mavericks who abuse authority. If every church you meet turns you down, you need to stop analyzing the churches but start analyzing yourself and ask yourself why FROM THEIR PERSPECTIVE.

 

[The Biblicist]

When God speaks, I listen & obey. Thats not an opinion.

God speaks through his church when it comes to missionaries and who is fit to be one (Acts 13:1-4). Every heretic on earth says what you are saying, don't you realize that? The true mark of a man of God is HUMILITY and SUBMISSION to the authorities God has established and God has established the church as the authority in performing mission work. If EVERY CHURCH is in conflict with an individual and that individual's only basis is "God told me" then, I would question that individual's ability to discern God's will.

 

[The Biblicist]

Sure, I'm being disobedient to their demands......which doesn't address the issue, it merely demands submission. Then where are we, still looking at a void area without pastoral support.

Surely, you can't expect any church to support someone who is defiant to their authority???? The Bible says there is council in the "multitude" of counselors. You might think you are ready and YOU might think the action is needed right now but that does not make it so, and others are in a much better position to objectively consider whether a man is ready and qualified or not. The mission can wait until the missionary is ready and prepared to do the work in the proper manner.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

God speaks through his church when it comes to missionaries and who is fit to be one (Acts 13:1-4). Every heretic on earth says what you are saying, don't you realize that? The true mark of a man of God is HUMILITY and SUBMISSION to the authorities God has established and God has established the church as the authority in performing mission work. If EVERY CHURCH is in conflict with an individual and that individual's only basis is "God told me" then, I would question that individual's ability to discern God's will.

But of course you would. However why is it "the area in discussion"purposely" being left unattended to?

 

[The Biblicist]

I had a man and his family come to our church in order to seek authority to do mission work in a very vital area. This man had been a Pastor for several years. However, a year previous to coming to our church he had left the ministry and traveled across the country to work for a whole year in a secular job believing that was God's will for him and his family. Then, God's will changed, and he came back and wanted authority to start this work and he wanted it now.

I explained to him that the church could not just give him authority just like that, after leaving the ministry for a whole year and just taking off. He must earn their trust and provide a track record of reliability and perseverance and that would take some time. He got mad and left and went to another church and that pastor and church told him the same thing. However, he was telling our church and the other church that "God had told him...and God was leading him...etc." He went to a third church and they told him the very same thing once learning of his past.

The bottom line was his pride. He had too much pastoral experience, he was too well learned, he knew God's leading, etc. and so he refused to humbly submit to authority and submit to the examination process of the church. Ultimately he went rouge on his own authority claiming God has spoken. God does not speak contrary to his word and God has established the church through which missionary work is to be done. God calls men directly to His work, but calls them through the church to do that work (Acts 13:1-4).

 

[The Biblicist]

But of course you would. However why is it "the area in discussion"purposely" being left unattended to?

I don't really understand what you are asking here? Is the "area in discussion" meaning the geographical area where you reside? There are countless areas where there is no missionary. Even in Scripture, God forbid Paul to enter areas where there was no missionary and there were countless lost people. Just because there is no missionary in a certain area does not mean God wants one there right now. When God wants to do missionary work in a certain area he will lead a church and provide a qualified man for that work. You may be that man for that work, but neither you or the place may yet be ready for God to do the work in a way that honors His revealed will for doing missions.

I can tell you this for sure. No church is going to sponsor a maverick nor are they going to believe God has spoken to such a maverick as that is simply not how God operates when sending out a missionary, he does not send out lone rangers, but he prepares a man and sends them out in keeping to His own revealed Word - through the church.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Surely, you can't expect any church to support someone who is defiant to their authority???? The Bible says there is council in the "multitude" of counselors. You might think you are ready and YOU might think the action is needed right now but that does not make it so, and others are in a much better position to objectively consider whether a man is ready and qualified or not. The mission can wait until the missionary is ready and prepared to do the work in the proper manner.

I dont think anything, God is Sovereign & He will provide. My job is to Love Him with all my heart & love my neighbor as myself.....and when He tells me to do something I do it. So be my guest if you want to call me a Heretic, then be my guest..... from my prospective, I am being obedient to my Lord & savior.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I don't really understand what you are asking here? Is the "area in discussion" meaning the geographical area where you reside? There are countless areas where there is no missionary. Even in Scripture, God forbid Paul to enter areas where there was no missionary and there were countless lost people.

Thats simply not the case here. God is not commanding people to not make disciples in this geographic area......quite the reverse.

Just because there is no missionary in a certain area does not mean God wants one there right now. When God wants to do missionary work in a certain area he will lead a church and provide a qualified man for that work. You may be that man for that work, but neither you or the place may yet be ready for God to do the work in a way that honors His revealed will for doing missions.

I will leave that to Him.......however I wont ignore Him

I can tell you this for sure. No church is going to sponsor a maverick nor are they going to believe God has spoken to such a maverick as that is simply not how God operates when sending out a missionary, he does not send out lone rangers, but he prepares a man and sends them out in keeping to His own revealed Word - through the church.

Thats fine by me.... then I can go to Florida content that both you and the church have got it covered.

 

[The Biblicist]

\

I dont think anything, God is Sovereign & He will provide. My job is to Love Him with all my heart & love my neighbor as myself.....and when He tells me to do something I do it. So be my guest if you want to call me a Heretic, then be my guest..... from my prospective, I am being obedient to my Lord & savior.

I am not calling you a heretic. I am just trying to be objective. I have heard your side of the story, but I have not heard the story of all the churches that have rejected your request. I find it very difficult to believe that every church you ask provides the same response without some good reasons as all these churches seem to be in unity with each other in respect to your request and there must be some underlying reasons for that unity.

You have openly admitted that you refused to submit to their criteria or requests. Clearly you have by your own admission an unsubmissive spirit to God established authorities for the very thing you are seeking. Hence, from a very objective point of view, it would seem the real problem is to be found in you and not in the churches.

Again, you are making the same claim that every heretic actually makes "God told me." I don't believe God tells individuals to do anything contrary to His revealed will and his revealed will is to glorify God through the church and that is precisely how he called Saul of Tarsus to do missionary work (Acts 13:1-4) and Paul claims that God saved him and called him and set him forth to be an example for us to follow. Why would you believe God is calling you to do something that is contrary to the Pauline example set forth in scripture?

 

[Darrell C]

The section of the OP which precedes this section I am in large part in agreement with, with the exception of see a "negative" in regards to the transition from death to life, for example, as I see it as a matter of a positive (positively removes us from a state of having no life).

E. Without regeneration man living prior to the cross universally would be:

1. Without the LIFE,

This is true. And this was the case.

We know this because the means, the Provision, for Eternal Life...is Christ. There is a set point in time when the True Bread came from Heaven. The "bread" which is contrasted with manna is, Christ states...

...His flesh. "His flesh" is the offering up of Himself, of, His death upon the Cross in the stead of the sinner.


John 5:39-40

King James Version (KJV)


39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.


Remember the Lawyer who asked, "What shall I do to have eternal life?" Remember Christ's response?


Luke 10:25-28

King James Version (KJV)


25 And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?

26 He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?

27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.

28 And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.


A few things to consider:

1. The Lawyer mistakenly thinks eternal life is a result of keeping the Law;

2. Christ confirms that if a man kept the law He would inherit eternal life (the problem being no-one could, save Christ only);

3. Christ does not imply this is possible for the man;

4. Christ does not negate or nullify that He is the Provision for eternal life.


It is true that if a man could keep the Law he could be declared righteous, and when he dies, he could push through the Angels, stroll up to the throne, and say, "Move over, there's two of us now."

But that was never a possibility, and what this would do is make eternal life a payment of debt, rather than the Gift of God.


Galatians 3:21-22

King James Version (KJV)


21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.

22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.



We are just not going to impose the realization of God's promises prior to Christ, nor prior to Pentecost.

Christ does confirm this Lawyer could obtain eternal life if he kept the Law, but, like Paul, He many times affirms that no man could do this. That is why the New Covenant was promised. This Lawyer was one who searched the Scriptures, and thought that eternal life was in them, rather than in Him that had given them.

So I agree with this...

E. Without regeneration man living prior to the cross universally would be:

1. Without the LIFE,

They were without the Life Christ came to obtain and bestow.

Prior to the Cross and Pentecost...they were under Law. This did not mean they were competely devoid of relationship with God, for God has interacted with man since the Fall, His Spirit coming upon men for the purpose of empowering them to ministry towards fallen man. Did they listen?


John 5:45-47

King James Version (KJV)


45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.

46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote of me.

47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?



They searched the Scriptures, and trusted in...Christ? Is that what the Lord states here?

Perhaps we might think, "Well, He's just speaking about those who didn't have faith."


Romans 3:1-2; 9-10

King James Version (KJV)


1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?

2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.

9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;


10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:


There is no room for "There is none righteous (except for those who had faith)...no not one."

It is clear, it has been proved that despite having the Word of God, it still remained...Jew and Gentile alike are all under sin. He validates this Bible Basic with Scripture...there is none righteous, no...

...not one.

Righteous from a temporal perspective, yes, but not righteous according to the Eternal Standard, which requires the imputation of Christ's Righteousness, namely that which is through His flesh, His offering up opf Himself.


Continued...

 

[The Biblicist]

You claim God told you or is leading you. May I ask what is the basis for that conclusion? Feeling? Your own sense of urgency? A vision? What?

 

[The Biblicist]

How can you expect God to use you to build a church if you don't go through the very same process yourself by being submissive to such a church?

When God called me to the ministry he did it while I was submissive in being taught to observe all things in the church. When I was called by God to go to a mission field 2000 miles from my home church he called me through the church. The church verified my claim. My God was the God of the church and my God was not going to tell the church one thing and me another thing. It seems that you think God tells churches one thing and you another thing?

Tell me, if a person came to your church and you were the Pastor, and that person claimed that God called them to a certain mission field where they lived, yet they refused to demonstrate submission to the authority of the church or its leadership, or differed with them concerning like faith and your congregation after considering it prayerfully did not believe the Lord was leading them to support that person, and you found out from that person this was the repeated testimony of all other churches that his person had previously sought, what would you think? Would you think that the multitude of believers in all these churches were being misled by the Lord or that single person was mistaken in their claim of divine leadership?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

\


I am not calling you a heretic. I am just trying to be objective. I have heard your side of the story, but I have not heard the story of all the churches that have rejected your request. I find it very difficult to believe that every church you ask provides the same response without some good reasons as all these churches seem to be in unity with each other in respect to your request and there must be some underlying reasons for that unity.

You have openly admitted that you refused to submit to their criteria or requests. Clearly you have by your own admission an unsubmissive spirit to God established authorities for the very thing you are seeking. Hence, from a very objective point of view, it would seem the real problem is to be found in you and not in the churches.

Again, you are making the same claim that every heretic actually makes "God told me." I don't believe God tells individuals to do anything contrary to His revealed will and his revealed will is to glorify God through the church and that is precisely how he called Saul of Tarsus to do missionary work (Acts 13:1-4) and Paul claims that God saved him and called him and set him forth to be an example for us to follow. Why would you believe God is calling you to do something that is contrary to the Pauline example set forth in scripture?

Simply because it reveals itself in countless observations of the area. You probably could not understand this but when I see the activities of churches & ordinary people in the neighborhood, I am constantly bombarded with......'This is a sin activity' & these people desperately need Christ. However there is no church forthcoming. So I go to these churches, sit with them, speak to them .....and bottom line there are a million excuses not to go out & bring Christ to them. I wont share stories with you, but I will tell you my brother is trained at bible school, my brother is a faithful attendee, my brother puts Christ first & lastly he lives in the community & so I bounce things off him (largely to get his perception) .....he agrees with me. And not because he is my brother, he simply sees whats happening at ground Zero.

Again It would be far easier for me to just abandon this community & move out. Im not a young man anymore & I would just love to retire & tend to my own diversions. However there is still this inner voice........so your suggesting I just ignore it?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

You claim God told you or is leading you. May I ask what is the basis for that conclusion? Feeling? Your own sense of urgency? A vision? What?

.... Im not nuts. And I dont want to do this. Im a big sinner.....broken every commandment including murder & fornication...... So why would call upon me? When you think about it, yea maybe it is nuts.

 

[Darrell C]

LIGHT

It is a necessity that the unregenerate...

...receive light.

Here is an example of God ministering through men in order to enlighten men to truth:


John 1:6-9

King James Version (KJV)


6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.

7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.

8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.

9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.


But we do not confuse The Light of the World with those who bear witness to that Light.

Christ's coming fulfills this...


Isaiah 42

King James Version (KJV)


1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.

2 He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street.

3 A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench: he shall bring forth judgment unto truth.

4 He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law.

5 Thus saith God the Lord, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:

6 I the Lord have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;

7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.


We will see an unregenerate man, filled with the Holy Ghost, speaking about another unregenerate man, also filled with the Holy Ghost...from the womb. John the Baptist. Who is prophesied to give light unto men. We know John is not That Light, but bears witness to that light. Thus did God give light unto unregenerate men:


Luke 1:68-79

King James Version (KJV)


68 Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people,

69 And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David;


When did this take place?


70 As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began:


Prophets...prophesy. Often they speak in advance that which is to come. There have been Prophets since the beginning of the world, and all of them foretold Christ's coming.

Zacharias, filled with the Holy Ghost (the Old Testament Ministry of God in the lives of men, not regeneration), preaches light:


71 That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us;

72 To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant;

73 The oath which he sware to our father Abraham,

74 That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear,

75 In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life.


Here we see the promises of God. Men did not understand their enemies that had to be defeated in order for them to live in holiness and righteousness before God.


76 And thou, child, shalt be called the prophet of the Highest: for thou shalt go before the face of the Lord to prepare his ways;

77 To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins,


Truly John gave knowledge of salvation unto the People of God. What is unfortunate is that some think John actually gave salvation.

John was not That Light, but a witness unto That Light.

And His testimony of Christ was, "I baptize you with water, but He shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost."


78 Through the tender mercy of our God; whereby the dayspring from on high hath visited us,

79 To give light to them that sit in darkness and in the shadow of death, to guide our feet into the way of peace.


Would anyone argue that John gave light to those who sat in darkness? Or that the light given men could be equated to That Light? unfortunately, some do.

The teaching that men must be regenerate in order to receive light from God, to understand the spiritual things of God, is denied thus:

1. All men are unregenerate until they hear the Gospel;

2. It is the Gospel of Jesus Christ through which we are born again;

3. False teachers and apostates are held accountable to a severer punishment because they rejected the Knowledge of the Truth, tread under foot the Son of God, consider the Blood (death) whereby Christ was sanctified and unholy thing, and do despite (resist, reject the efforts of) unto the Spirit of Truth and Grace.


Those under Old Testament Economies awaited Redemption, they understood fully their need of the Coming Messiah. Unfortunately, it is popularly taught today that they didn't really await Redemption, they already had it.

Zacharias does not testify to such a teaching. Nor did John the Baptist. Nor did Christ.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

.... Im not nuts. And I dont want to do this. Im a big sinner.....broken every commandment including murder & fornication...... So why would call upon me? When you think about it, yea maybe it is nuts.

And what will you teach your flock about New Birth Contrasts and Consequences?


God bless.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

When God called me to the ministry he did it while I was submissive in being taught to observe all things in the church. When I was called by God to go to a mission field 2000 miles from my home church he called me through the church. The church verified my claim. My God was the God of the church and my God was not going to tell the church one thing and me another thing. It seems that you think God tells churches one thing and you another thing?

Ahhh yes.......that statement reveals much.

Tell me, if a person came to your church and you were the Pastor, and that person claimed that God called them to a certain mission field where they lived, yet they refused to demonstrate submission to the authority of the church or its leadership, or differed with them concerning like faith and your congregation after considering it prayerfully did not believe the Lord was leading them to support that person, and you found out from that person this was the repeated testimony of all other churches that his person had previously sought, what would you think?

Wow that's a tough call. But my mom always taught me not to guess....but to know. So if you are asking then here would be my answer.....Do an Exploratory (of both the geographic area & the person...including a background check of the person). More importantly, is there truly a void area in my region that needs attention ....and then lastly, if there is then what do we as the "CHURCH" to address the matter. Forget about the messenger, have it checked out. That's what I would do!

What I would not do is tell the person that, Hey, in the past we tried this & it didnt work, so just be content with our gathering place....THAT'S DEFINITELY WHAT I WOULD NOT DO.

Would you think that the multitude of believers in all these churches were being misled by the Lord or that single person was mistaken in their claim of divine leadership?

Excuse me, what multitudes are you referring to.....these churches are loosing people. Maybe you should ask the question as to why that is.

[Edited to fix the broken quote bracket.]