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New Book on the Doctrine of Scripture

Alan Dale Gross

Active Member
There are many Septuagints, since each Alexandrian Old Testament is different from every other.
  • According to a little Google AI;
  • The statement is correct that there is no single, uniform "Septuagint" text; rather, the term refers to a diverse corpus of ancient Greek translations of the Hebrew Bible that varied by location, time, and the specific Hebrew manuscripts used as source texts.
  • Major Codices: The most complete surviving manuscripts of the Septuagint, such as the 4th-century Codex Vaticanus and Codex Sinaiticus, and the 5th-century Codex Alexandrinus, contain some differing readings and contents.

Know what they are? Sinaiticus, Vaticanus and Alexandrinus - the same exact codices (big books) where the modern p*****ted New Testaments come from!
"In the study of Septuagint manuscripts, pride of place has traditionally been given to a few copies* that are relatively old, relatively complete and quite beautifully written.

"The most famous are the trio known as Codex Vaticanus (top photo), Codex Sinaiticus (bottom photo) and Codex Alexandrinus (middle photo).

"The first two date to the fourth century and the third to about a century later.

"They appear to have a common Egyptian origin. They also share several other characteristics: Each is a codex, or leaf book, a form made popular (if not invented) by Christians; each is written on vellum, specially prepared lamb skin; the scribe of each used an uncial script (a modification of the all-capital letter formations used primarily in inscriptions); finally, each was subjected to numerous alterations and corrections through erasures, interlinear markings and marginal notations." = Perfectly abnormal and perfectly unhealthy.

From;

Major Septuagint Manuscripts —

Vaticanus, Sinaiticus, Alexandrinus

By Leonard J. Greenspoon

*by the unlearned.
The earlier manuscript portions of the Greek Septuagint could not have come from the later Codex Vaticanus or Codex alexandrinis.
So, you're talking about the earliest verses the later.

What about that? No one's talking about the earliest verses the latest.
Edmon Gallagher wrote: "Our earliest manuscripts of the Septuagint usually contain only one biblical book, at least in their preserved form. The earliest manuscripts date to the second century BCE" (Translation of the Seventy, p. 40).
One Bible book. So, much for the earliest that no one is talking about.
 

Alan Dale Gross

Active Member
My old Hebrew professor, Dr. James Price, is now 100 years old. He can substantiate the accuracy of the OT compared to the Masoretic text, since he was an important editor of the NJKV. Hebrew scholars will tell you that Dr. Price knew what he was doing. His PhD in Hebrew was from Dropsie U., a Jewish university.
With all due respect to your aged teacher and mentor, we are forced to our understanding by his and others own words:

"The NKJV translators disliked the Textus Receptus":

"Dr. James D. Price was the executive editor of the Old Testament of the New King James Version. Price was formerly Chairman and Professor of the Department of Old Testament, Temple Baptist Theological Seminary, Chattanooga, Tennessee. Price has been retired since 2005.

[edit] 'Not a TR Advocate'

"In 1996 David Cloud corresponded via email
with the executive editor of the Old Testament - Dr James Price.

Cloud stated: "..he admitted to me that he is not committed to the Received Text and that he supports the modern critical text in general:

‘I am not a TR advocate.
I happen to believe that God has preserved the autographic text in the whole body of evidence that He has preserved, not merely through the textual decisions of a committee of fallible men based on a handful of late manuscripts.

"The modern critical texts like NA26/27 (Nestle-Aland) and UBS (United Bible Societies) provide a list of the variations that have entered the manuscript traditions, and they provide the evidence that supports the different variants. In the apparatus they have left nothing out, the evidence is there. The apparatus indicates where possible additions, omissions, and alterations have occurred… I am not at war with the conservative modern versions [such as the New International Version and the New American Standard Version]’. (James Price, e-mail to David Cloud, April 30, 1996)."

"The above demonstrates how the executive editor of the Old Testament of the New King James Version does not advocate the Greek Textus Receptus; but rather that he is an advocate of the Nestle-Aland critical Greek text.

"The overall principal editor of the New King James Version, Arthur L. Farstad, was also coprincipal editor, along with Zane Hodges, of the Hodges-Farstad majority text, a Greek text that makes nearly 1,900 changes to the Textus Receptus.


"This fact could lead us to answer why the editors of the New King James desired to show us with their textual apparatus of alternate Greek readings in the footnotes, because they do not believe in the Textus Receptus, but approve alternate readings and other Greek texts!

[edit] Arthur L. Farstad;

Dr Farstad stated in his preface to the New King James:
"Today, scholars agree that the science of New Testament textual criticism is in a state of flux. Very few scholars still favor the Textus Receptus as such, and then often for its historical prestige as the text of Luther, Calvin, Tyndale, and the King James Version.

"For about a century most have followed a Critical Text (so called because it is edited according to specific principles of textual criticism) which depends heavily upon the Alexandrian type of text. More recently many have abandoned this Critical Text (which is quite similar to the one edited by Westcott and Hort) for one that is more eclectic.

"Finally, a small but growing number of scholars prefer the majority text, which is close to the traditional text except in the Revelation." Dr. Arthur Farstad, (Chairman of the NKJV Executive Review Committee)[1]

"Thus, we see that Dr Farstad deprecates the Textus Receptus. New Testament textual criticism is in a state of flux, he tells us; the old is no longer good, he implies.

"Very few scholars still favor that old-fashioned Textus Receptus, which was once universally recognized by the Church as the providentially preserved and pure text of all ages, and which once held universal sway as the Byzantine text for 1,400 years, the last nearly five hundred years as the printed Textus Receptus.

"But no, we must now set aside that old-fashioned text; we must turn instead to the Greek texts favored by the REAL scholars: either to the critical text, which is favored by most, or to the new so called Byzantine majority text which is favored by an increasing minority of scholars.

"Thus, the editors of the NKJV* will now do us a great favor by setting forth to us these better readings in the margin, these better readings which they have given in English in the margin, these better readings which overthrow and undermine the authority of the translation from the Textus Receptus we see in the main body of the text.[2]

"Apparently, according to these "NEW" King James men, the Textus Receptus is no longer to be regarded as the providentially preserved Greek text because it was compiled by a ‘committee of fallible men’ using ‘a few late manuscripts’, as Dr Price has told us.

"If, as we are told by Dr Farstad (who was co-editor of the Hodges-Farstad majority Greek text which is at major variance with the Textus Receptus in over 1,000 places), that scholars today hold for the most part to either the critical text or the majority text and therefore those texts are better than the Textus Receptus, then one of those texts and a translation made from one of those texts should be what we read.

"Therefore, it follows that the NKJV's main contributors consider that the Textus Receptus, and its faithful translation, the Authorized Version, should be set aside for the “new” Greek.

See their page here:
http://textus-receptus.com/wiki/New_King_James_Version

*They do not know what they are doing.

"
Marion H. Reynolds Jr. of the Fundamental Evangelistic Association said:

“The duplicity of the NKJV scholars is also a matter for concern.

"Although each scholar was asked to subscribe to a statement confirming his belief in the plenary, divine, verbal inspiration of the original autographs (none of which exist today), the question of whether or not they also believed in the divine preservation of the divinely inspired originals was not an issue as it should have been.

"Dr. Arthur Farstad, chairman of the NKJV Executive Review Committee which had the responsibility of final text approval, stated that this committee was about equally divided as to which was the better Greek New Testament text-the Textus Receptus or the Westcott-Hort.

"Apparently none of them believed that either text was the Divinely preserved Word of God. Yet, all of them participated in a project to "protect and preserve the purity and accuracy" of the original KJV based on the TR.

"Is not this duplicity of the worst kind, coming from supposedly evangelical scholars?”
 

Logos1560

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
"From "Answers To Your Bible Version Questions" © 2001 by David W. Daniels


  • "The Latin Vulgate. This is not the preserved Vaudois Christian, Old Latin Vulgate. The NKJV "scholars" consulted the p*****ted, Roman Catholic Latin Vulgate.
The KJV translators consulted the same Roman Catholic Latin Vulgate. The KJV translators had Hebrew-Latin lexicons and Greek-Latin lexicons that often had renderings from the Roman Catholic Latin Vulgate as their definitions of original-language words of Scripture.

There were not complete printed copies of the Vaudois Old Latin Vulgate available to the KJV translators, and no known complete manuscript copies of it available to them. The claimed Vaudois Old Latin Vulgate had its Old Testament that was translated from the old Greek Septuagint, not from the Hebrew Masoretic Text. KJV defender Edward F. Hills acknowledged that “the earlier Latin version of the Old Testament was a translation of the Septuagint” (KJV Defended, p. 95; Text, p. 174). In their preface to the 1611, the KJV translators asserted that the [Old] Latin translations “were not out of the Hebrew fountain (we speak of the Latin Translations of the Old Testament) but out of the Greek stream.” Reformer Francis Turretin affirmed that “the Latin version in use before the time of Jerome” was made from the Greek Septuagint (Institutes, I, p. 127).

KJV-only author David Daniels admitted: “The King James translators clearly used an Alexandrian text like the Vaticanus and Alexandrinus to make the Apocrypha” (Is the World’s Oldest Bible a Fake, p. 232). Jeffrey Alan Miller maintained that this 1587 Rome Septuagint was the first “edition to be based upon the manuscript known as Codex Vaticanus” (Feingold, Labourers, p. 230). In this same book, Nicholas Hardy maintained that this 1587 Sixtine Septuagint printed in Rome was “the principal edition which he [KJV translator John Bois] used to study the Greek version of the Old Testament and to translate and revise the King James Apocrypha” (p. 279). Jeffrey Miller referred to “the copy of the Rome Septuagint that [John] Bois evidently used in his work as a translator” (p. 236). Nicholas Hardy noted: “Bois’s copy of this book [the 1587 Septuagint] contains thousands of marginal notes and interlinear annotations in Bois’s neat, distinctive hand” (p. 279). Nicholas Hardy also pointed out that “the royal librarian, Patrick Young” identified “Bois as the author of the annotations” (p. 280).

Thomas Armitage wrote that “he [Peter Waldo] employed Stephen of Ansa and Bernard Ydross to translate the Gospels from the Latin Vulgate of Jerome into the Romance dialect for the common people, as well as the most inspiring passages from the Christian Fathers” (History of the Baptists, I, p. 295). Andrea Ferrari wrote that “Waldo of Lyons paid some clergy to translate parts of the Bible from the Vulgate” (Diodati’s Doctrine, pp. 71-72). Paul Tice confirmed that Waldo “enlisted two clerics to translate various parts of the Bible, including the four Gospels, into the native Provencal language” (History of the Waldenses, p. vi). H. J. Warner maintained that the base for this translation was “for the most part the Vulgate of Jerome” (Albigensian, II, p. 222). Warner noted that Stephen de Ansa, a [Roman Catholic] priest, translated some books of the Bible into the Romance tongue while another priest Bernard Udros wrote his translating down for Peter Waldo (p. 221).
 

Logos1560

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
It should be noted that by being eclectic the King James Bible’s Old Testament constitutes perfectly normal and perfectly healthy perspicacious translation philosophy and practice.
According to a consistent, just application of the same exact measures/standards, the NKJV's Old Testament also "constitutes perfectly normal and perfectly healthy perspicacious translation philosophy and practice."
 

Deacon

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
VerseKing JamesNKJVP*********s agreeing with NKJV
Acts 3:26God, having raised up his SonHis ServantNIV, NASV, ASV, RSV, Roman Catholic New American Bible (NAB), etc.
Acts 17:22I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitious.very religiousNIV, NASV, ASV, RSV, Catholic NAB, etc.
Romans 1:25Who changed the truth of God into a liewho exchanged the truth of God for the lieNIV, NASV, ASV, RSV, Catholic NAB, etc.
1 Corinthians 1:18For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.who are being saved [This teaches the Roman Catholic lie that salvation is a process.]NIV, NASV, NASU, RSV, Catholic NAB, etc.
Off topic....

WOW! I'm not really interested in the content rather,
HOW DID YOU MANAGE TO PUT COLUMNS AND LINES into the text?

Rob
 

John of Japan

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
With all due respect to your aged teacher and mentor, we are forced to our understanding by his and others own words:

"The NKJV translators disliked the Textus Receptus":

"Dr. James D. Price was the executive editor of the Old Testament of the New King James Version. Price was formerly Chairman and Professor of the Department of Old Testament, Temple Baptist Theological Seminary, Chattanooga, Tennessee. Price has been retired since 2005.

[edit] 'Not a TR Advocate'

"In 1996 David Cloud corresponded via email
with the executive editor of the Old Testament - Dr James Price.

Cloud stated: "..he admitted to me that he is not committed to the Received Text and that he supports the modern critical text in general:

‘I am not a TR advocate.
I happen to believe that God has preserved the autographic text in the whole body of evidence that He has preserved, not merely through the textual decisions of a committee of fallible men based on a handful of late manuscripts.

"The modern critical texts like NA26/27 (Nestle-Aland) and UBS (United Bible Societies) provide a list of the variations that have entered the manuscript traditions, and they provide the evidence that supports the different variants. In the apparatus they have left nothing out, the evidence is there. The apparatus indicates where possible additions, omissions, and alterations have occurred… I am not at war with the conservative modern versions [such as the New International Version and the New American Standard Version]’. (James Price, e-mail to David Cloud, April 30, 1996)."

"The above demonstrates how the executive editor of the Old Testament of the New King James Version does not advocate the Greek Textus Receptus; but rather that he is an advocate of the Nestle-Aland critical Greek text.

"The overall principal editor of the New King James Version, Arthur L. Farstad, was also coprincipal editor, along with Zane Hodges, of the Hodges-Farstad majority text, a Greek text that makes nearly 1,900 changes to the Textus Receptus.

"This fact could lead us to answer why the editors of the New King James desired to show us with their textual apparatus of alternate Greek readings in the footnotes, because they do not believe in the Textus Receptus, but approve alternate readings and other Greek texts!


[edit] Arthur L. Farstad;

Dr Farstad stated in his preface to the New King James:
"Today, scholars agree that the science of New Testament textual criticism is in a state of flux. Very few scholars still favor the Textus Receptus as such, and then often for its historical prestige as the text of Luther, Calvin, Tyndale, and the King James Version.

"For about a century most have followed a Critical Text
(so called because it is edited according to specific principles of textual criticism) which depends heavily upon the Alexandrian type of text. More recently many have abandoned this Critical Text (which is quite similar to the one edited by Westcott and Hort) for one that is more eclectic.

"Finally, a small but growing number of scholars prefer the majority text, which is close to the traditional text except in the Revelation." Dr. Arthur Farstad, (Chairman of the NKJV Executive Review Committee)[1]

"Thus, we see that Dr Farstad deprecates the Textus Receptus. New Testament textual criticism is in a state of flux, he tells us; the old is no longer good, he implies.

"Very few scholars still favor that old-fashioned Textus Receptus, which was once universally recognized by the Church as the providentially preserved and pure text of all ages, and which once held universal sway as the Byzantine text for 1,400 years, the last nearly five hundred years as the printed Textus Receptus.

"But no, we must now set aside that old-fashioned text; we must turn instead to the Greek texts favored by the REAL scholars
: either to the critical text, which is favored by most, or to the new so called Byzantine majority text which is favored by an increasing minority of scholars.

"Thus, the editors of the NKJV* will now do us a great favor by setting forth to us these better readings in the margin, these better readings which they have given in English in the margin, these better readings which overthrow and undermine the authority of the translation from the Textus Receptus we see in the main body of the text.[2]

"Apparently, according to these "NEW" King James men, the Textus Receptus is no longer to be regarded as the providentially preserved Greek text because it was compiled by a ‘committee of fallible men’ using ‘a few late manuscripts’, as Dr Price has told us.

"If, as we are told by Dr Farstad
(who was co-editor of the Hodges-Farstad majority Greek text which is at major variance with the Textus Receptus in over 1,000 places), that scholars today hold for the most part to either the critical text or the majority text and therefore those texts are better than the Textus Receptus, then one of those texts and a translation made from one of those texts should be what we read.

"Therefore, it follows that the NKJV's main contributors consider that the Textus Receptus, and its faithful translation, the Authorized Version, should be set aside for the “new” Greek.


See their page here:
http://textus-receptus.com/wiki/New_King_James_Version

*They do not know what they are doing.

"
Marion H. Reynolds Jr. of the Fundamental Evangelistic Association said:

“The duplicity of the NKJV scholars is also a matter for concern.

"Although each scholar was asked to subscribe to a statement confirming his belief in the plenary, divine, verbal inspiration of the original autographs (none of which exist today), the question of whether or not they also believed in the divine preservation of the divinely inspired originals was not an issue as it should have been.

"Dr. Arthur Farstad, chairman of the NKJV Executive Review Committee which had the responsibility of final text approval, stated that this committee was about equally divided as to which was the better Greek New Testament text-the Textus Receptus or the Westcott-Hort.


"Apparently none of them believed that either text was the Divinely preserved Word of God. Yet, all of them participated in a project to "protect and preserve the purity and accuracy" of the original KJV based on the TR.

"Is not this duplicity of the worst kind, coming from supposedly evangelical scholars?”
With your many, many words here, you are mixing up the Hebrew Masoretic Text and the Greek TR. Dr. Price is a Hebrew scholar, not a Greek scholar. He does not claim to be a Greek scholar, and is not an expert on the Greek. He never taught it. I took Hebrew from him, not Greek. So all of this criticism of his belief about the TR is irrelevant.
 

JesusFan

Well-Known Member
With your many, many words here, you are mixing up the Hebrew Masoretic Text and the Greek TR. Dr. Price is a Hebrew scholar, not a Greek scholar. He does not claim to be a Greek scholar, and is not an expert on the Greek. He never taught it. I took Hebrew from him, not Greek. So all of this criticism of his belief about the TR is irrelevant.
I have never be involved in any translation work, but based upon what I have learned about textual criticism and translation principles, I would suggest that far more important than actually which Greek NT was being used for translation would be the philosophy of translation, how dynamic and how formal, and how would one view the inerrancy and inspiration of the original texts themselves?
 

John of Japan

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
I have never be involved in any translation work, but based upon what I have learned about textual criticism and translation principles, I would suggest that far more important than actually which Greek NT was being used for translation would be the philosophy of translation, how dynamic and how formal, and how would one view the inerrancy and inspiration of the original texts themselves?
I mostly agree with you about this. However, you say that it the translation philosophy is "far more" important than the Greek text chosen. To me that is like saying the heart is far more important than the liver. But if you lose either one you are dead.

Considerations in choosing the NT Greek text:
1. What is the translator's view of textual criticism and its results? (How important is the issue to the translator? To me in my translation work it was very important.)
2. What is the constituency like? What Greek text would they be more comfortable with? (In large areas of the English speaking world, the KJV is common because it has been handed out free.)
3. What view do the other missionaries take? (Will using a critical text alienate friends?)
 

JesusFan

Well-Known Member
I mostly agree with you about this. However, you say that it the translation philosophy is "far more" important than the Greek text chosen. To me that is like saying the heart is far more important than the liver. But if you lose either one you are dead.

Considerations in choosing the NT Greek text:
1. What is the translator's view of textual criticism and its results? (How important is the issue to the translator? To me in my translation work it was very important.)
2. What is the constituency like? What Greek text would they be more comfortable with? (In large areas of the English speaking world, the KJV is common because it has been handed out free.)
3. What view do the other missionaries take? (Will using a critical text alienate friends?)
I like your considerations, as I was just addressing the issue that one must use a TR/MT/CT Greek text, as think good translations can and have been made each one of the texts
 
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