New Covenant Theology

[Herald]

You're probably right. All I know of CT is what I've read because I was never a part of a church that believed that view. I've only been in a dispensational church and under dispensational teaching until about 5 months ago. I'll check that out. Thank you!

But what, if any, difference is there between that view (Baptist Covenant Theology) and what is now called New Covenant Theology?

Baptist Covenant Theology sees thee parts of the Mosaic Law: ceremonial, civil, and moral. Christ fulfilled the ceremonial and civil aspects of the law, with the moral aspect still in effect. The moral aspect (or moral law) actually predates the Mosaic Law. The moral law is the innate knowledge of good and evil. We see it operation in Genesis 4:6-7:

but for Cain and for his offering He had no regard. So Cain became very angry and his countenance fell. Then the Lord aid to Cain, "Why are you angry? And why has your countenance fallen? If you do well, will not your countenance be lifted up? And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door, and its desire is for you, but you must master it."

All men are still under the moral law today. No one can be saved by keeping the moral law, but obeying the moral law is the foundation of an orderly society. That is why God has empowered the magistrate to maintain civil, as well as, spiritual order. But the role of the magistrate is a topic for a future discussion.

NCT disavows the moral law. It believes Christ did away with all aspects of the law. This is why NCT has been accused of antinomianism, the view that there is no need for the law of God in the Christian life. Extreme views of antinomianism lead to the belief that the more a person sins the more grace God dispenses to them. Paul refuted that ridiculous notion in Romans 6:1-2.

What shall we say then? Are we to continue to sin that grace may increase? May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?

NCT has been linked to Reformed Baptists, when in actuality it is a fringe movement found among certain Calvinistic Baptists that are unwilling to embrace Baptist Reformed theology. They want to keep their presuppositions, and NCT provides them a safe repository for those presuppositions.

I recommend a few very good books:

Covenant Theology: From Adam to Christ
http://www.solid-ground-books.com/detail_1987.asp
A Reformed and Baptistic Perspective on God's Covenant

The Distinctiveness of Baptist Covenant Theology

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Christ is the substance of both Testaments. While the New Covenant is not enacted until Christ's resurrection, it was promised back in Genesis 3:15. The Old Testament, and theology in general, is of great value since it reveals Christ.

My commentary was a criticism of NCT...nothing more.

But let me add that the common walking around Joe off the street does not give a fig about this stuff...its viewed as causing division. That is a real disconnect between pastors & people warming the seats on Sunday.

 

[RLBosley]

My commonentary was a criticism of NCT...nothing more.

But let me add that the common walking around Joe off the street does not give a fig about this stuff...its viewed as causing revision. That is a real disconnect between pastors & people warming the seats on Sunday.

A lot of that disconnect is caused by the mass amount of unbelievers that are in and accepted by today's churches. I firmly believe that if you are born again you will love God. If you love God you will love to study Him and His word and frankly love theology and doctrine. Maybe not to the level of a scholar or theologian but you won't be totally ignorant either.

Baptist Covenant Theology sees thee parts of the Mosaic Law: ceremonial, civil, and moral. Christ fulfilled the ceremonial and civil aspects of the law, with the moral aspect still in effect. The moral aspect (or moral law) actually predates the Mosaic Law. The moral law is the innate knowledge of good and evil. We see it operation in Genesis 4:6-7:

All men are still under the moral law today. No one can be saved by keeping the moral law, but obeying the moral law is the foundation of an orderly society. That is why God has empowered the magistrate to maintain civil, as well as, spiritual order. But the role of the magistrate is a topic for a future discussion.

NCT disavows the moral law. It believes Christ did away with all aspects of the law. This is why NCT has been accused of antinomianism, the view that there is no need for the law of God in the Christian life. Extreme views of antinomianism lead to the belief that the more a person sins the more grace God dispenses to them. Paul refuted that ridiculous notion in Romans 6:1-2.

See that's where I would disagree. There is no division of the OT law, and by law I mean the commands given in Leviticus/Deuteronomy, the Sinai Covenant, and that three-fold division is arbitrary. From what I've read in the OT I do not see any acknowledgement there that the law has three parts. And I would agree that the WHOLE law was abolished. But the charge of antinomianism is false because while the "letter" has been abolished we now have a greater law to live up to. Christ Himself said that all the law and prophets were summed up in Love God and love your neighbor as yourself. If I do those two things, I won't blaspheme, steal or kill, etc. Just because the actual law covenant was abolished does not mean that the "spirit" behind the law is gone as well. As you said "The moral aspect (or moral law) actually predates the Mosaic Law. The moral law is the innate knowledge of good and evil." I agree with that! And NCT does as well in that the morality behind the Decalogue is unchanging and is still in effect.

The law was a reflection of God's moral character and that has never and will never change. But to say that the Decalogue itself is still in effect for the church, I think is wrong and not supported by scripture.

NCT has been linked to Reformed Baptists, when in actuality it is a fringe movement found among certain Calvinistic Baptists that are unwilling to embrace Baptist Reformed theology. They want to keep their presuppositions, and NCT provides them a safe repository for those presuppositions.

I recommend a few very good books:

Covenant Theology: From Adam to Christ
http://www.solid-ground-books.com/detail_1987.asp
A Reformed and Baptistic Perspective on God's Covenant

The Distinctiveness of Baptist Covenant Theology

See that's something I was curious about because I so far agree with the NCT interpretation of the covenants and the Israel/church relationship. But I'm not a Calvinist, never have been. I saw that a lot (all?) of the NCT guys I was reading were Calvinistic so I wondered if it was a solely/primarily a Calvinist system. More to consider...

Thanks for the book references!

 

[Herald]

NCT is a Calvinist theology.

 

[RLBosley]

Well so is Covenant theology and I've heard that there are a handful of non-calvinist covenant theologians/pastors.
I don't see what it would necessarily be exclusive to Calvinism.

 

[Herald]

Well so is Covenant theology and I've heard that there are a handful of non-calvinist covenant theologians/pastors.
I don't see what it would necessarily be exclusive to Calvinism.

Because inherent in Reformed Covenant Theology is the Covenant of Works and the Covenant of Grace. Arminianism rejects the Covenant of Works. It also rejects the Covenant of Grace as commonly defined in Reformed Covenant Theology, because it has application to the Reformed view of soteriology (salvation). Reformed Theology believes that God made the Covenant of Grace with the elect. That is what Arminianism rejects.

 

[Herald]

See that's where I would disagree. There is no division of the OT law, and by law I mean the commands given in Leviticus/Deuteronomy, the Sinai Covenant, and that three-fold division is arbitrary. From what I've read in the OT I do not see any acknowledgement there that the law has three parts. And I would agree that the WHOLE law was abolished. But the charge of antinomianism is false because while the "letter" has been abolished we now have a greater law to live up to. Christ Himself said that all the law and prophets were summed up in Love God and love your neighbor as yourself. If I do those two things, I won't blaspheme, steal or kill, etc. Just because the actual law covenant was abolished does not mean that the "spirit" behind the law is gone as well. As you said "The moral aspect (or moral law) actually predates the Mosaic Law. The moral law is the innate knowledge of good and evil." I agree with that! And NCT does as well in that the morality behind the Decalogue is unchanging and is still in effect.

The law was a reflection of God's moral character and that has never and will never change. But to say that the Decalogue itself is still in effect for the church, I think is wrong and not supported by scripture.

I obviously can get into a lengthy point-by-point debate with you on the nature of the Mosaic law and the continuation of its moral aspect; but that would be quite a time sink compared to the relatively easy subject of Calvinism! :laugh: I suggest you procure those books I recommended and revisit the subject for a later discussion.

Have a blessed day!

 

[Herald]

My commentary was a criticism of NCT...nothing more.

Fair enough.

But let me add that the common walking around Joe off the street does not give a fig about this stuff...its viewed as causing division. That is a real disconnect between pastors & people warming the seats on Sunday.

No offense, but my preaching is geared to the saints, not the average Joe off the street. Those Joe's are welcome at all times, but I am assuming those gathered on the Lord's day are sheep that need to be fed.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Well so is Covenant theology and I've heard that there are a handful of non-calvinist covenant theologians/pastors.
I don't see what it would necessarily be exclusive to Calvinism.

You want to study so badly.....here is your opportunity. Have at it.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Fair enough.



No offense, but my preaching is geared to the saints, not the average Joe off the street. Those Joe's are welcome at all times, but I am assuming those gathered on the Lord's day are sheep that need to be fed.

Never assume .... what are you really called to do? ... Go and make disciples of all nations. No offense but you appear to be a bit selective.

 

[Herald]

Never assume .... what are you really called to do? ... Go and make disciples of all nations. No offense but you appear to be a bit selective.

I am also called to "preach the Word" (2 Tim. 4:2). The primary way a pastor/elder makes disciples is to faithfully discharge his duties in the church. Jesus told Peter to, "feed my sheep" (John 21:16). I am not suggesting the Gospel is not to be proclaimed outside the four walls of the church. I am making the point that the primary responsibility of a pastor/elder is to feed the sheep that are within those figurative walls.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I am also called to "preach the Word" (2 Tim. 4:2). The primary way a pastor/elder makes disciples is to faithfully discharge his duties in the church. Jesus told Peter to, "feed my sheep" (John 21:16). I am not suggesting the Gospel is not to be proclaimed outside the four walls of the church. I am making the point that the primary responsibility of a pastor/elder is to feed the sheep that are within those figurative walls.

Seriously Herald, you should not be so defensive. Do you believe a human being could be born again without getting their selves tangled with Dispy, CT, NCT, etc. This just becomes a marked dividing line for some people & another reason to fight & argue. I got enough fights with people claiming I'm a heretic because my soterology is Doctrines of Grace. :laugh:

 

[Herald]

Seriously Herald, you should not be so defensive. Do you believe a human being could be born again without getting their selves tangled with Dispy, CT, NCT, etc. This just becomes a marked dividing line for some people & another reason to fight & argue. I got enough fights with people claiming I'm a heretic because my soterology is Doctrines of Grace. :laugh:

I guess it is my strong position on preaching the Word. It is done so infrequently, and so poorly in this country that I see it as the greatest threat to the Church. It is one of my buttons that is easy to push.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I guess it is my strong position on preaching the Word. It is done so infrequently, and so poorly in this country that I see it as the greatest threat to the Church. It is one of my buttons that is easy to push.

And that's what I do...push buttons...but only to cause conflict because without it there is no understanding & w/o understanding there is only wrong decisions.

 

[Herald]

And that's what I do...push buttons...but only to cause conflict because without it there is no understanding & w/o understanding there is only wrong decisions.

You are a good button pusher! :laugh:

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

New Jersey b&b :thumbs:

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Did I tell you I'm going to be taking instruction from some real serious Dutchies @ a Reformed church in Sussex county...straight up hard core take no prisoner types.

I am not joining them however..takes a nut like me to get Dutch Reform people to adopt a Baptist & I'm an ahole, so lets see how long this lasts.

 

[FollowTheWay]

simple version:
Paul does not contrast law/grace....as you are stating it. There is always grace and law.

NCT are those who want to believe in the 5 pts, but do not want to obey the fourth commandment...see the earlier link s offered to understand the issue

I agree that there is always grace and law but we are no longer under the law. Satisfying the law is impossible. That's why Jesus had to die on the cross in order to provide a way for us to be reconciled to God. Did Jesus come to replace the law? No, He came to fulfill it in Himself for us.

 

[RLBosley]

Because inherent in Reformed Covenant Theology is the Covenant of Works and the Covenant of Grace. Arminianism rejects the Covenant of Works. It also rejects the Covenant of Grace as commonly defined in Reformed Covenant Theology, because it has application to the Reformed view of soteriology (salvation). Reformed Theology believes that God made the Covenant of Grace with the elect. That is what Arminianism rejects.

I understand that but since NCt rejects the Covenant of Grace I see no reason why it should be exclusively Calvinistic.

I obviously can get into a lengthy point-by-point debate with you on the nature of the Mosaic law and the continuation of its moral aspect; but that would be quite a time sink compared to the relatively easy subject of Calvinism! :laugh: I suggest you procure those books I recommended and revisit the subject for a later discussion.

Have a blessed day!

I plan on getting those books... eventually. I currently have 10 on my shelf that I have yet to read, plus another 15 or so in my Amazon wishlist. :laugh:

Also, just so we are clear - While yes I think that all the actual Laws of the Mosaic Covenant have been abolished, that isn't to say that the "Morality" behind the "moral law" has changed. We are held to the same if not higher standard under the New Covenant.

You want to study so badly.....here is your opportunity. Have at it.

Thanks... i think.

No offense, but my preaching is geared to the saints, not the average Joe off the street. Those Joe's are welcome at all times, but I am assuming those gathered on the Lord's day are sheep that need to be fed.

That is EXACTLY the right attitude to have. Amen! :thumbs:

 

[FollowTheWay]

Tim,

I think "Kingdom through Covenant" is a "wannabe". There are quite a few inquiring minds in the SBC who see the shortcomings of dispensationalism and progressive dispensationalism, but they are not Reformed in any sense of the word. Many are not even Calvinists. They are going through a "systematic theology identity crisis". It is another attempt to carve out a niche that will accommodate existing theological presuppositions. That is how NCT came into being.

Dispensationalism is a construct of John Darby in the late 1800's. The new covenant is straight from the Bible and has been around for 2,000 years.