New Covenant

[steaver]

I choose both. Here's why. The Kingdom of Heaven always existed. It is eternal. David's Throne was God's throne according to the OT. But the Messiah had not yet been resurrected to sit on His Throne in Heaven until NC times. So think of it as Christ taking David's Throne in Heaven during his resurrection. Where he remains until the end of the world, where he then remains seated on his own throne forever in the New Heavens and earth. Think big..........

That's not both, that is saying it always existed which then you must have misspoke when you said it began at Pentecost.

All dying in faith enter heaven at time of death.

Now here is the problem with this thinking:

"And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven." (John 3)

Prior to the resurrection, all dying in faith went to Paradise. After the resurrection, Jesus led "captivity captive" and took the OT saints into heaven. "Thou hast ascended on high, thou hast led captivity captive: thou hast received gifts for men; yea, for the rebellious also, that the LORD God might dwell among them." (Psalm 68:18) Take special note of the last statement "that the LORD might dwell among them" and compare to......
"For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:" (Heb 8) Of course this prophecy is ALL New Covenant and was fulfilled through the death, burial, resurrection and glorification of Jesus Christ and began only after those events had been fulfilled. Christ was never "In" the believer until the New Covenant, He couldn't be until sin was washed by the blood and removed. God cannot dwell with sin. Only then was a person fit for Christ to enter into them as one and the person was fit to enter into heaven.

 

[1689Dave]

That's not both, that is saying it always existed which then you must have misspoke when you said it began at Pentecost.



Now here is the problem with this thinking:

"And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven." (John 3)

Prior to the resurrection, all dying in faith went to Paradise. After the resurrection, Jesus led "captivity captive" and took the OT saints into heaven. "Thou hast ascended on high, thou hast led captivity captive: thou hast received gifts for men; yea, for the rebellious also, that the LORD God might dwell among them." (Psalm 68:18) Take special note of the last statement "that the LORD might dwell among them" and compare to......
"For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:" (Heb 8) Of course this prophecy is ALL New Covenant and was fulfilled through the death, burial, resurrection and glorification of Jesus Christ and began only after those events had been fulfilled. Christ was never "In" the believer until the New Covenant, He couldn't be until sin was washed by the blood and removed. God cannot dwell with sin. Only then was a person fit for Christ to enter into them as one and the person was fit to enter into heaven.

If you limit the kingdom to your present understanding, you will not accurately define it. God's rule (kingdom) is eternal, without beginning or ending. But it goes through different phases. I think this is what is tripping you up.

 

[steaver]

If you limit the kingdom to your present understanding, you will not accurately define it. God's rule (kingdom) is eternal, without beginning or ending. But it goes through different phases. I think this is what is tripping you up.

No I think you did not make yourself clear from the beginning. I suppose you could argue the Kingdom of Heaven is eternal, but of course it had no human occupants until Jesus Christ paved the way. So we can say it began post cross, which you said so yourself, as far as people entering in. I understand clearly from the scripture why it began (to be filled) beginning with the OT saints brought out of Paradise and the NT disciples followed by Pentecost. I have presented plenty of scripture which of course no one has challenged.

 

[steaver]

No problem. The Kingdom began at Pentecost and and becomes fully developed in the New Heavens and Earth.

So the Kingdom began post cross, I agree.

I think we both are thinking "began" as in the sense after Jesus Christ was glorified things changed with regards to the Kingdom. We both understand the Kingdom is eternal, but we both were speaking in terms of what is happening within the Kingdom in the New Covenant. So we both began with a lack of clarity. But I think we are on the same page now, but you believe the Kingdom was open for business since the beginning of time and I see scripture showing it was closed until Jesus Christ was glorified and established the New Covenant. Now you do have a sense that it "began" at Pentecost, you said as much, thus, you do recognize there is a change. So what is the change for the believer that you see in scripture, I showed you the change I see through scripture, that the OT saints were held in paradise and no one entered into the Kingdom until Christ was glorified.

 

[1689Dave]

I think we both are thinking "began" as in the sense after Jesus Christ was glorified things changed with regards to the Kingdom. We both understand the Kingdom is eternal, but we both were speaking in terms of what is happening within the Kingdom in the New Covenant. So we both began with a lack of clarity. But I think we are on the same page now, but you believe the Kingdom was open for business since the beginning of time and I see scripture showing it was closed until Jesus Christ was glorified and established the New Covenant. Now you do have a sense that it "began" at Pentecost, you said as much, thus, you do recognize there is a change. So what is the change for the believer that you see in scripture, I showed you the change I see through scripture, that the OT saints were held in paradise and no one entered into the Kingdom until Christ was glorified.

Wherever God is, the kingdom is.

 

[1689Dave]

No I think you did not make yourself clear from the beginning. I suppose you could argue the Kingdom of Heaven is eternal, but of course it had no human occupants until Jesus Christ paved the way. So we can say it began post cross, which you said so yourself, as far as people entering in. I understand clearly from the scripture why it began (to be filled) beginning with the OT saints brought out of Paradise and the NT disciples followed by Pentecost. I have presented plenty of scripture which of course no one has challenged.

The kingdom is wherever God involves himself including the universe.

 

[steaver]

The kingdom is wherever God involves himself including the universe.

That's fine brother, but this is a debate board and you will have to answer questions and be specific. I provided a lot of scripture backing up my views and haven't seen you address as to why I am misapplying what I am concluding. Making vague statements doesn't help the debate.

 

[1689Dave]

That's fine brother, but this is a debate board and you will have to answer questions and be specific. I provided a lot of scripture backing up my views and haven't seen you address as to why I am misapplying what I am concluding. Making vague statements doesn't help the debate.

I don't think you can debate what I've said about the Kingdom being wherever God is.

 

[Yeshua1]

Came you name a few spiritual blessings Abraham did not receive that we now receive?

No direct access to throne of God, did not have all of the scriptures, did not Have as his High priest, and did not have the sealing of the Holy Spirit as we all do now.

 

[steaver]

I don't think you can debate what I've said about the Kingdom being wherever God is.

Sure we can. Post the scripture that has shaped your views that the Kingdom is being wherever God is. And then we will debate. Oh, and you can go back and read my post to you with all of the scripture I gave and show me why I am wrong on my views.

 

[steaver]

No direct access to throne of God, did not have all of the scriptures, did not Have as his High priest, and did not have the sealing of the Holy Spirit as we all do now.

Very good! You would agree then that the OT saints were not born again, or in other words as you said, sealed of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Yeshua1]

Very good! You would agree then that the OT saints were not born again, or in other words as you said, sealed of the Holy Spirit.

They would have had their sins remitted by God, as the Cross of Christ atoned for their sins also, would also have to have been regenerated also, in order to obey God and heed His OT he gave unto them.
There are different opinions on what exactly happened with OT believers, even among calvinist/Reformed!

 

[steaver]

would also have to have been regenerated also, in order to obey God and heed His OT he gave unto them.

Then when you listed being sealed by the Holy Spirit as something Abraham did not receive you misspoke??

 

[Yeshua1]

Then when you listed being sealed by the Holy Spirit as something Abraham did not receive you misspoke??

No, rather that he was saved by the Cross of Christ, salvation by Grace thru faith, but not totally sure what that would have meant to Him in the sense of the Spirit!

My current thought process would be that God granted then repentance and regeneration, but the actual presence of the Spirit indwelling them waited until Pentecost. they had the heart and mind willing to obey God, but lacked the power of the Holy Spirit to do that as we now can!

 

[steaver]

No..........My current thought process would be that God granted then repentance and regeneration, but the actual presence of the Spirit indwelling them waited until Pentecost.

Its good you see the dilemma for the Calvinist position you hold. You see and understand the Holy Spirit indwelling is regeneration/born of God. You see this did not happen until after the cross of Christ. But you still want to hold to the misconception that those pre-cross were regenerated. It cannot be both. The answer is to abandon the idea that those before the cross of Christ were regenerated and understand from scripture that this is the reason they had to wait in Paradise until Jesus led captivity captive.

 

[Yeshua1]

Its good you see the dilemma for the Calvinist position you hold. You see and understand the Holy Spirit indwelling is regeneration/born of God. You see this did not happen until after the cross of Christ. But you still want to hold to the misconception that those pre-cross were regenerated. It cannot be both. The answer is to abandon the idea that those before the cross of Christ were regenerated and understand from scripture that this is the reason they had to wait in Paradise until Jesus led captivity captive.

Regeneration is not salvation, so they could still be openned by God to receibve Him and His ways, but had to keep them in the flesh, as Paul described himself doing in Romans 7! The New Covenant gives to us Romans 8 way!

 

[steaver]

Regeneration is not salvation, so they could still be openned by God to receibve Him and His ways, but had to keep them in the flesh, as Paul described himself doing in Romans 7! The New Covenant gives to us Romans 8 way!

Tit 3:5 - Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

 

[Yeshua1]

Tit 3:5 - Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Yes, as that is what now happens under the New Covenant, but think that there is still a mystery as to how exactly God worked towards the redeemed under Old One!

 

[steaver]

Yes, as that is what now happens under the New Covenant, but think that there is still a mystery as to how exactly God worked towards the redeemed under Old One!

All are saved the exact same way brother, as described by Tit 3:5 - "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;"

Why do you think Abraham and the OT believers had to wait in Paradise and rejoiced to see Christ's day? Why do you think Jesus led captivity captive?

There is not still a mystery. Paul makes this clear, you need to read the letter to the Ephesians, here is one snippet....."And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:"......
"And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the mystery of the gospel,"

The mystery was hid in God, and now revealed to us through the Apostles. The full salvation plan revealed;
(1) Faith: Abraham believed God.
(2) The Atonement/Cross of Christ.
(3) Regeneration/Rebirth of the spirit after the glorification of Jesus Christ, captivity led captive.
(4) Regeneration/Resurrection of the body during the rapture.

You are very close brother! Keep studying!

 

[Squire Robertsson]

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