New Doctor Who

[ccrobinson]

Take the Vampires of Venice. If you really analyze the story it's not about vampires at all.

Yes, I know it's not about vampires. It's about a species that doesn't mind if people think they're vampires. It's their disguise. That's not a bad premise to build a story on. But, you don't like the title. Perhaps the very descriptive "Aliens of Venice" would have been more to your liking.

(What's wrong with using cows or dogs for this purpose? Oh, you
wouldn't have a story...)

You're criticizing the show for telling a story. That's just silly.

Their cunning plan to sink Venice into the ocean is way more convoluted than merely finding a suitable ocean area already in situ. They had technology that would have allowed them to take over the world without resorting to disguising themselves.

May I ask how they're easily getting females in the 16th century out to the middle of the ocean? If they had technology that would have allowed them to take over, why did they do what they did? Hint, the last question is rhetorical. They did what the limits of their technology allowed them to do.

Don't know whether I like the timey-wimey stuff and I'm defintiely getting tired of the whole story arc idea (maybe it's just that I'm getting older) though.

You're just getting old, Matt. :tongue3:

I like the story arc just fine and it's not like we never saw this kind of storytelling in Classic Doctor Who.

I like seeing the different ways that Moffat uses time in these stories. I haven't seen many, if any, writers use time as effectively as he does.

One thing about the Moffatt stories is that there is scant character development. We hardly know anything about Amy or Rory.

I completely disagree with your criticism that we don't know anything about Amy or Rory. One of RTD's strengths as a writer was his character development, but that doesn't mean that Moffat hasn't developed his characters. One thing we're not getting with Moffat is the overwrought emotional stuff that RTD beat us over the head with.

Now to Episode 1 of the new season: The Impossible Astronaut. Trying to avoid spoilers, but I quite liked it. Good, nasty aliens, a few twists and turns.

I liked it also. Very clever concept for the aliens.

 

[InTheLight]

I completely disagree with your criticism that we don't know anything about Amy or Rory. One of RTD's strengths as a writer was his character development, but that doesn't mean that Moffat hasn't developed his characters. One thing we're not getting with Moffat is the overwrought emotional stuff that RTD beat us over the head with.

OK, we know about Amy and Rory cause we're fans. The casual viewer wouldn't know much about them. She's a sing-o-gram girl. What else does she do? Who/where are her parents? How old is she? Where did she go to school? What does she aspire to do?

I don't think Moffatt does a very good job of character development. Can you name any secondary characters or villians that were adequately fleshed out? The only one that comes to mind from last season is the guy in The Lodger and the story wasn't written by Moffatt. I suppose Vincent Van Gogh was nicely portrayed but that wasn't a fictional character.

I agree with you on RTD going overboard with the emotional appeals.

I liked it also. Very clever concept for the aliens.

The Silence? The concept seems to be a spin on the Weeping Angels. As long as you looked at the Weeping Angels they were stationary; When you look away from the Silence, you forget about them.

 

[ccrobinson]

What else does she do? Who/where are her parents?

She doesn't do anything else apparently and I can't imagine how that matters to characterization. How can you possibly ask that question about her parents?

How old is she? Where did she go to school? What does she aspire to do?

Seriously, you don't know the answers to these questions? Were you watching last season?

Can you name any secondary characters or villians that were adequately fleshed out?

Adequately fleshed out means that we have to know the above questions for every single character? Name a secondary character in RTD's era that was adequately fleshed out for you.

Frankly, I don't think you like Steven Moffat because he's not RTD and you're grasping at straws trying to find something not to like about him.

The concept seems to be a spin on the Weeping Angels. As long as you looked at the Weeping Angels they were stationary; When you look away from the Silence, you forget about them.

Again, you seem fond of telling me what I already know. Whether you like what he did with The Silence or not, it's undeniable that Moffat keeps coming up with very scary monsters, i.e. Vashta Nerada, Weeping Angels, The Silence.

In regards to the season opener, so many unanswered questions and I think we haven't heard the last of The Silence.

 

[InTheLight]

She doesn't do anything else apparently and I can't imagine how that matters to characterization.

Characters in stories are all about their starting point and how the story changes them. If you don't know the starting point of the character how can you know how they are being changed by events?

Seriously, you don't know the answers to these questions? Were you watching last season?

Yes, I watched all stories last year. I've seen all stories ever broadcast since 1963 and have most in some form of a recording. I don't know what Amy aspired to do or become. She was a singing telegram delivery person. I presume she has loftier career goals than that! I don't know how old she is, or what kind of education she has.

Adequately fleshed out means that we have to know the above questions for every single character?

No, but it would be nice to know their motivations for their actions.

Name a secondary character in RTD's era that was adequately fleshed out for you.

You've responded to my questions by asking me questions. It's a common trait of posters on this board, and frustrating. I usually don't play that game but I will name a couple. Sir Robert in "Tooth and Claw", the alternate universe Pete Tyler in Rise of Cybermen/Age of Steel, just about any crew member in "42", the monster in the Satan Pit, the villains in Human Nature/Family of Blood, etc.

Frankly, I don't think you like Steven Moffat because he's not RTD and you're grasping at straws trying to find something not to like about him.

I thought RTD's stories were too soap opera-ish. I didn't like the constant gay references. He had a tendency to end sticky predicaments with a deus ex machina. But for the most part his plots were solid and they had good characterizations. I had tired of RTD and had high hopes for Moffatt.

Generally speaking the hallmark of Moffatt's stories are fast paced convoluted timey-wimey plots with rapid-fire dialogue, lots of red herrings, a lot of running around. They are fun to watch but when you sit back afterwards and think about them, they don't hold up.

Again, you seem fond of telling me what I already know. Whether you like what he did with The Silence or not, it's undeniable that Moffat keeps coming up with very scary monsters, i.e. Vashta Nerada, Weeping Angels, The Silence.

Yes, he does have great monsters.

In regards to the season opener, so many unanswered questions and I think we haven't heard the last of The Silence.

I presume you've seen Day of the Moon? If so, I have about a half dozen questions that didn't add up for me, which is the problem with long story arcs. I will ask you just one:

What is the overall plan of the Silence with regards to humans? What are they trying to accomplish?

 

[Matt Black]

Not sure but I got the implication or impression at least that they were somehow stranded on earth - the Doctor's statement that makind was going to the moon being important to the Silence/ Silents I think backs that up - so they're probably using humanity and manipulating human development to escape back to their home world.

Another unanswered question, which almost certainly forms the kernel of this season's story arc: who was the child in the photo Amy saw in the asylum?

 

[InTheLight]

Not sure but I got the implication or impression at least that they were somehow stranded on earth - the Doctor's statement that makind was going to the moon being important to the Silence/ Silents I think backs that up - so they're probably using humanity and manipulating human development to escape back to their home world.

Yeah.....but if they had space travel capabilities why wouldn't they repair their spacecraft? Or embark on a mission to build a new one? (They had some sort of a control console in their secret lair.) And they've been here since before fire and the wheel.

There's just so many questions and goofy plot points.

Are the Silence responsible for John F. Kennedy's "we shall go to the moon and return safely to earth within a decade" speech? Did they hypnotically suggest to the Germans that they develop rockets during WWII? Did they help the Russians develop their space program?

Why was the girl in the spacesuit? What did she do to (or shoot at) the older version of the Doctor at the beginning of Impossible Astronaut that killed him? If you look at the scene again you can see ripples in the lake water from the blast. Why were River's expert shots with the six-shooter impotent to kill the girl in the spacesuit?

Would humans really kill an alien on sight because they saw (and forgot) a 3 second clip of an alien in the moon landing TV footage? How/Why does that hypnotic suggestion thingy work on videotape?

I know the Doctor was being held in Area 51, but where did the U.S. get vast quantities of dwarf star alloy perfectly machined into blocks that they could stack into a prison cell?

If I kill a Silence in my home and the corpse is laying on the carpet and I turn away, I forget there's this creature in my house. Next time I look at it I wonder what this dead alien is doing in my house. But I turn away and forget about it. How long will this go on? "Honey, I don't know what this dead alien is doing on the floor, but I say we take it out to the curb with the rubbish."

The Silence have vast networks of tunnels under the earth's crust. So after the broadcast of the moon landing why won't most of them simply migrate to third world countries where they didn't get the TV broadcast and live in safety from humanity?

The best analogy I can come up with is the Silence seems to be like a kind of parasite. If the Silence has been here since before fire and the wheel, just what is their plan?

Another unanswered question, which almost certainly forms the kernel of this season's story arc: who was the child in the photo Amy saw in the asylum?

I presume that was the girl in the spacesuit as a smaller child.

 

[ccrobinson]

You've responded to my questions by asking me questions.

Don't even pretend that I haven't answered your questions. Just because I ask questions of my own doesn't mean I haven't answered yours.

Sir Robert in "Tooth and Claw", the alternate universe Pete Tyler in Rise of Cybermen/Age of Steel, just about any crew member in "42", the monster in the Satan Pit, the villains in Human Nature/Family of Blood, etc.

We know as much about these characters as do we any secondary character in Season 5. You defined a set of requirements for characters to be fleshed out, so you can certainly tell me the answers to the questions for these characters. How old is Sir Robert? Where did he go to school? Who are his parents? How about the crew members in 42? How about the family in Human Nature/Family of Blood?

The truth is that Moffat's secondary characters are no more, or no less, fleshed out than any secondary character during RTD's era.

What is the overall plan of the Silence with regards to humans? What are they trying to accomplish?

I don't know yet. We haven't seen the entire season yet to answer this question. I like the season arc, you don't. We're not convincing each other either way, so I don't see the point in arguing about whether it's a good idea or not.

but if they had space travel capabilities why wouldn't they repair their spacecraft?

Do they have space travel capabilities? Don't assume facts that aren't in evidence.

I know the Doctor was being held in Area 51, but where did the U.S. get vast quantities of dwarf star alloy perfectly machined into blocks that they could stack into a prison cell?

I think we have to assume that it's because it was Area 51.

The best analogy I can come up with is the Silence seems to be like a kind of parasite. If the Silence has been here since before fire and the wheel, just what is their plan?

The Doctor said it was a parasite during the episode. And what their plan is isn't known yet because the season hasn't finished yet. I'm not sure why it bothers you that Moffat hasn't wrapped up everything in a neat and tidy package. RTD didn't always wrap up everything in a neat and tidy package either, such as not letting us know who Mr. Saxon was until The Sound of Drums.

 

[InTheLight]

Don't even pretend that I haven't answered your questions. Just because I ask questions of my own doesn't mean I haven't answered yours.

That's an interesting way to look at things. Asking questions is answering questions. Hmmm...

We know as much about these characters as do we any secondary character in Season 5. You defined a set of requirements for characters to be fleshed out, so you can certainly tell me the answers to the questions for these characters.

I defined a set of requirements for Amy. I should have been clearer that I didn't mean these criteria to be applied to one-off characters. For secondary characters you can get a sense of who they are not only by the facts presented in the dialogue/script but also by facial expressions, body language, voice inflection, etc. You "know" about who they are. For example, I would say that I "know" the monster in Satan Pit more than I know any of the Silurians in Hungry Earth. I know Sir Robert better than I know Guido from Vampires of Venice.

The truth is that Moffat's secondary characters are no more, or no less, fleshed out than any secondary character during RTD's era.

I guess we'll just have to disagree on this.

Do they have space travel capabilities? Don't assume facts that aren't in evidence.

When Canton is chasing River Song in the high rise in NYC River says, "You were invaded a long time ago, America is being occupied", so I assume they are extra-terrestrial. I suppose as parasites they could have hitch-hiked with some other aliens and never had space flight capability of their own.

The Doctor said it was a parasite during the episode. And what their plan is isn't known yet because the season hasn't finished yet. I'm not sure why it bothers you that Moffat hasn't wrapped up everything in a neat and tidy package.

Because I like coherent plots.

River says the space suit has 20 different kinds of alien technology inside of it. She says a person wouldn't need to eat in the suit because everything is self-sustaining. So how does an earth-bound parasitic alien invasion force get access to 20 kinds of alien technology? This is the sort of plot hole that drives me crazy.

 

[ccrobinson]

Asking questions is answering questions.

The idea is that you show me a question that I haven't given an answer to. Like here are a couple.

I presume you've seen Day of the Moon? If so, I have about a half dozen questions that didn't add up for me, which is the problem with long story arcs. I will ask you just one:

What is the overall plan of the Silence with regards to humans? What are they trying to accomplish?

Yes.

I don't know.

I don't know.

In absence of knowing more about them, one theory is that they just like controlling humans. If this isn't the answer, then I'm Ok waiting for the season to unfold to find the answers to these questions. Again, long story arcs like this don't really bother me like they bother you.

I defined a set of requirements for Amy.

Yes, you did and how you didn't know the answer to some of the questions you asked is beyond me.

Because I like coherent plots.

So how does an earth-bound parasitic alien invasion force get access to 20 kinds of alien technology? This is the sort of plot hole that drives me crazy.

Who said it's a plot hole? Since we haven't seen every episode of the season, how can you possibly say it's a plot hole?

You say you like coherent plots, and yet you haven't mentioned, even once, the biggest plot hole in the entirety of Season 5. I'm completely mystified by this. Rail against Vampires of Venice because you don't like the title of the episode and yet you miss the big plot hole of Season 5.

You say that RTD's plots were mostly solid, but I disagree. There's a pretty big plot hole at the end of Doomsday in Season 2. Namely, how does Pete know the precise time for jumping across the Void and rescuing Rose? And if 11 can save River Song after she jumped off the building in Day of the Moon, why couldn't 10 do the same thing for Rose at the end of Doomsday?

 

[Matt Black]

Really liked The Doctor's Wife, screened here on Saturday. Moving, touching, and Suranne Jones is dead hot! The Tardis goes alll kenotic...

 

[InTheLight]

Who said it's a plot hole? Since we haven't seen every episode of the season, how can you possibly say it's a plot hole?

We don't need to see any more episodes to know it is a plot hole. The astronaut suit had over 20 types of alien technology in it. Since the Silence is earth-bound, and has been for thousands of years, where would they get this alien technology from? Even in the Doctor Who universe I don't think 20 alien races have visited earth. And even if there had been, are we to believe that the Silence has captured technology from every single alien race? Even supposing they have, if they can patch work together and sync-up disparate alien technologies, with that sort of intelligence at their disposal, what are they doing still stranded on earth?

As long as I'm on a roll I might as well mention how the Silence completely undermines human achievement and Dr. Who canon.

If the Silence is the catalyst behind every human maneuver since fire and the wheel, doesn't that invalidate the entirety of human endeavor? If all human progress is linked to the Silence then why, in story after story does the Doctor state things like (paraphrasing), "humans are so clever, you've reached the stars" or "earth is my favorite planet and humans are my favorite species" or "don't underestimate humanity's drive and ingenuity, they will spread from galaxy to galaxy."

You say you like coherent plots, and yet you haven't mentioned, even once, the biggest plot hole in the entirety of Season 5. I'm completely mystified by this. Rail against Vampires of Venice because you don't like the title of the episode and yet you miss the big plot hole of Season 5.

It's not just the title of the story that was bad, the whole story was flawed.

You say that RTD's plots were mostly solid, but I disagree. There's a pretty big plot hole at the end of Doomsday in Season 2. Namely, how does Pete know the precise time for jumping across the Void and rescuing Rose? And if 11 can save River Song after she jumped off the building in Day of the Moon, why couldn't 10 do the same thing for Rose at the end of Doomsday?

I never said RTD's stories didn't have plot holes, but his stories have far fewer ones than stories commissioned under Moffatt. I'd have to go back and re-watch the episode you mention in order to see what you are talking about.

 

[InTheLight]

Really liked The Doctor's Wife, screened here on Saturday. Moving, touching, and Suranne Jones is dead hot! The Tardis goes alll kenotic...

That was a great episode! This is what we need more of--standalone stories with new concepts mixed in with a touch of continuity from previous stories and a dash of explanation for old questions. A solid story based on the Doctor, not the companions, where the Doctor is the hero, not the companions. I was SO hoping that the woman with the eye-patch wouldn't make an appearance and I was so glad that she was absent.

 

[ccrobinson]

The idea is that you show me a question that I haven't given an answer to.

Since you didn't show me any questions I haven't answered, we can consider your criticism that I haven't answered questions to be null and void. I love how you criticize me for not answering questions when my posts are littered with questions you won't touch. Next!

As long as I'm on a roll I might as well mention how the Silence completely undermines human achievement and Dr. Who canon.

Finally, we have a legitimate complaint. This is my biggest problem with the Silence as well. We could argue that their influence ended in 1969 and human achievement continued after that point. We could also argue that the Doctor was wrong in saying they've been on Earth for thousands of years. The Doctor was wrong on almost every theory he came up with in The Curse of the Black Spot until the very end, though I admit that is not a satisfying answer.

I never said RTD's stories didn't have plot holes, but his stories have far fewer ones than stories commissioned under Moffatt. I'd have to go back and re-watch the episode you mention in order to see what you are talking about.

To say that they have far fewer than Moffat's is a ridiculous assertion. I've already shown you a huge one in Doomsday.

Really liked The Doctor's Wife,

Loved it. Loved the idea, one that I've held myself, that the TARDIS stole the Doctor as much as the Doctor stole the TARDIS.

 

[Matt Black]

So, who else reckons the Gangers are proto-Autons?

 

[InTheLight]

So, who else reckons the Gangers are proto-Autons?

Hmm...hadn't crossed my mind. But since Autons were on Earth in the 1970's and 2000's and this story is set in the future, I don't see how it works.

I was kind of shocked that the Doctor implied the "Flesh" had souls and were sacred life.

One thing though, we now have a candidate for which version of the Doctor got killed at the beginning of Impossible Astronaut.

 

[Matt Black]

...and indeed that the assassin in the spacesuit may well be the 'real' Doctor.

 

[Bible Believing Bill]

Thanks to on demand and netflix my 16 yr old son is now a Dr. Who fan!

 

[Andy_S]

It's a very different show now from when it originally returned in 2005.

More, I'm told, like the traditional Doctor Who series.

 

[ccrobinson]

.and indeed that the assassin in the spacesuit may well be the 'real' Doctor.

How about Doctor River Song? She kills a good man, the best she's ever known. Who else could she be referring to but the Doctor?

 

[Matt Black]

So is River the person in the spacesuit? And...


Spoilers alert!
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Ganger-Doctor doesn't survive his encounter with Flesh-Jen so, unless he can regenerate the same as the original, he isn't the one being shot by Spaceman.

Great cliffhanger on this one, BTW.