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New Doctor Who

David Lamb

Well-Known Member
#1, we do have posts about Tom Baker and Jon Pertwee and others. #2, we didn't have a Baptistboard around back when "Classic" Who was on. :smilewinkgrin:
No, I knew that - we didn't even have the Internet then, and very few individuals owned computers back when "Dr Who" first started. My amazement was that on the predominantly American BB, a Brish TV programme should attract so much attention.
 

ccrobinson

Active Member
It actually hasn't gotten that much attention on the board. Go back to the first page and check out when this thread was opened.

That said, it's loved in America too because it's such a great show.
 

InTheLight

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
In case anybody's missed it, August 27th is when the 2nd half of the season resumes.

Yes, I've seen it. And to quote myself:

Generally speaking the hallmark of Moffatt's stories are fast paced convoluted timey-wimey plots with rapid-fire dialogue, lots of red herrings, a lot of running around. They are fun to watch but when you sit back afterwards and think about them, they don't hold up.


And that pretty much describes "Let's Kill Hitler". (Although I admit I liked it.)
 

Matt Black

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Although 'Let's kill Hitler' answered for me more questions than it asked, I still subscribe to this comment: 'The difference between the 'classic'Who and the 'new' Who is that children could follow the plots of the former whereas no-one can follow the plots of the latter'.
 

Earth Wind and Fire

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
No, I knew that - we didn't even have the Internet then, and very few individuals owned computers back when "Dr Who" first started. My amazement was that on the predominantly American BB, a Brish TV programme should attract so much attention.

Goes back to the days of the "Prisioner" & "Secret Agent Man" LOL or maybe I just liked Patrick McGoohen.
 

InTheLight

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Although 'Let's kill Hitler' answered for me more questions than it asked, I still subscribe to this comment: 'The difference between the 'classic'Who and the 'new' Who is that children could follow the plots of the former whereas no-one can follow the plots of the latter'.

It answered the main questions regarding River Song's origins but it raised a bunch more, like:

1. If Mels is the regeneration of the girl in the alley in 1969 (end of Day of the Moon), then where did she live during the school-aged years she befriended Amelia Pond? Who did she live with? Didn't Amy ever wonder who her parents were? This is especially relevant given the number of times she was incarcerated.

2. Just how does Mels travel through time without a Tardis? How did she get from 1969 to Ameila's era?

3. How can Mels adjust her maturation rate to match that of Amy and Rory? Alternate question: How old was she when she regenerated in the alley in 1969?

4. Why doesn't the toxin on her lips affect Mels? I suppose she had some sort of chemical barrier on her lips to protect her from it, but why didn't the toxin and/or barrier disintegrate when she regenerated into River?

5. If we presume that the person in the spacesuit in Impossible Astronaut is the little girl (and I'm not so sure anymore) she successfully killed the Doctor. So why is she still continuing her mission against him as Mels?

6. Why would a robotic morph-able body shell need antibodies? Why would the humanoids inside have protective wrist bands to ward off the antibodies? Isn't that a lousy design feature?

7. How could the Time Police have erred in locating Hitler by 7 years, showing up in 1938 instead of 1945?

8. Why does the mere act of conception inside the Tardis imbue a human fetus with Time Lord DNA?

9. When the dying Doctor crawled into the Tardis why was he told by the Ameila Pond voice recorder: "regeneration has been disabled?"

10. What is the question that is before us all?

11. Why did River give all remaining regenerations to the Doctor?

I know I had more questions just after I watched the episode but I can't recall them now.
 
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Matt Black

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
'Night Terrors' was much much better IMO: discrete storyline, monsters, a problem with a solution and not much of a deus ex machina element.
 

InTheLight

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
'Night Terrors' was much much better IMO: discrete storyline, monsters, a problem with a solution and not much of a deus ex machina element.

Oh my goodness, I thought "Night Terrors" was awful. So many unexplained and unbelievable facets to this story. The franchise seems to be veering off into the land of magic and abandoning it's science fiction basis.

We have an alien that arrives on planet Earth in the form of a baby, not knowing it is an alien or why it is here. The mother and father cannot remember anything about it, in fact the mother was never pregnant, but thinks she gave birth to the boy. Apparently none of her friends question this either, despite photographic evidence to the contrary.

When the 'boy' is 8 years old he starts to think there are monsters in his room. What monsters? Why are they after George? Where did they come from? It's so scary for George that he sends out a psychic message across vast light years of space and time that flashes onto the Doctor's psychic paper. This seems to be a new and utterly fantastic feature of the psychic paper, never mind the concept that a thought can travel through space and travel faster than light.

The Doctor tracks down the boy and makes a house call. Why doesn't Dad wonder why a social worker is showing up at 8:30 at night despite the fact that no one called one?

The boy has placed all his scary stuff in a cupboard, including a doll house. The Doctor's scans the cupboard with his sonic screwdriver and it returns terror that is off the charts. Why would a boy have a doll house? Why/how does the sonic screwdriver have a terror detector?

The boy thinks that if someone blinks the lights on/off five times it will keep the monsters at bay. Why does he think that will work because, man, that cupboard is full and it certainly didn't work on this night!

The boy, through some unexplained magical process and ability, banishes an old woman, his family's landlord, Rory, Amy, his Dad, and the Doctor into the dollhouse. He miniaturizes them then sucks them through solid materials like elevator doors, brick walls, floors, etc. and into the dollhouse. No really, he does.

Exactly how is he doing this? Why would an alien with that ability be afraid of anything? You can make anything that scares you disappear. I guess the old woman was guilty of making noise as she shuffled past the boy's window. The boy is afraid of the noise that the elevator makes, Amy and Rory happened to be inside of the elevator. Really? Are these things scary?

Why do the scary bits need to be miniaturized and put into a dollhouse? How does George do it?

Once inside the doll house there are wooden dolls that walk like zombies hunting the humans. If a wooden doll touches you, you will turn into a wooden doll. What, really? Amy is touched and is turned into a wooden doll. Then what? Amy starts hunting humans so she can touch them and turn them into dolls. And this makes sense, because....?

So what is happening here? Is this all a projection of George's overactive imagination? Yep, I think so.

The Doctor is able to talk to George through the dollhouse walls, and through the cupboard walls, which is an amazing feat since his vocal chords are probably a hundredth of a millimeter in size and he couldn't project his voice more than a couple of inches. And even if he could, only dogs could hear him. But George hears him, opens the cupboard, shrinks in size, enters the dollhouse, receives his Dad's declaration of unconditional love, whereupon everything is set to rights and everybody lives happily ever after. And there's your deus ex machina.

In other words, it was all a dream. The End.

Aaaarrrgghhhhh!!!
 
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Don

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Dude, it's "Doctor Who"; a certain suspension of belief is required. :)

Although I found the episode a little vapid myself, a few points:
- The father (who played an equally emotionally unstable/immature character in "Outcasts") made a comment about not knowing his wife had already contacted social services, or something to that effect.
- the Doctor attempted to explain the psychic nature of the alien child, thus explaining both the psychic paper and the boy "sucking" everyone into his imagination...or at least, giving somewhat of an explanation.
- the monsters are the child's fears, resulting from continued overheard discussions between the parents about doctors and possibly having to send the child away; and let's face it: What child isn't afraid of doctors, or being separated from their parents?

Okay, the wooden dolls, I gotta agree with you. That was just weirdness that didn't seem to incorporate with the rest of the situation.

I read somewhere that this episode was originally meant to be shown earlier in the season, because it had nothing to do with the over-arching theme of the season...but the same author was also extremely disappointed with the Amy and Rory characters in this episode. This would have been a good "Doctor only" episode, instead of including Amy and Rory and throwing in zombie wood dolls to give them something to run from....
 

ccrobinson

Active Member
The franchise seems to be veering off into the land of magic and abandoning it's science fiction basis.

As The Doctor says to Amy in The Beast Below: "Oh, you're a cheery one." You sure do complain about the show a lot.


What monsters? Why are they after George? Where did they come from?

Thought this was explained at the end. The monsters were in his head. They weren't real. Seems like a pretty obvious point.


Why doesn't Dad wonder why a social worker is showing up at 8:30 at night despite the fact that no one called one?

He does seem to be a bit clueless.


The boy thinks that if someone blinks the lights on/off five times it will keep the monsters at bay. Why does he think that will work because, man, that cupboard is full and it certainly didn't work on this night!

I had to close the doors of the closet in my kids' rooms when they were little. Any monster worth his salt could break a closet door down, but the kids were convinced that closing the closet doors worked. That's no more silly than blinking the lights 5 times.


But George hears him, opens the cupboard, shrinks in size, enters the dollhouse, receives his Dad's declaration of unconditional love, whereupon everything is set to rights and everybody lives happily ever after. And there's your deus ex machina.

Can we refrain from using the term deus ex machina to describe something that clearly doesn't fit the definition?

is a plot device whereby a seemingly inextricable problem is suddenly and abruptly solved with the contrived and unexpected intervention of some new event, character, ability, or object.

Nothing that happens fits the definition, so no deus ex machina.


I wouldn't give "Night Terrors" my highest rating, but I don't think it was awful either.
 

Matt Black

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
The monsters were effectively quasi-psychosomatic projections, not under George's conscious control. Once the cause of his psycholgical upset was removed, the monsters disappeared too and everything was restored. I didn't find that hard to follow at all.
 

InTheLight

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Once the cause of his psycholgical upset was removed, the monsters disappeared too and everything was restored. I didn't find that hard to follow at all.

It wasn't hard to follow, it just didn't make sense. Miniaturizing people and sucking them into a dollhouse locked inside a cupboard?

OK, and what was the cause of his psychological upset? Was it that he believed his father was going to abandon him? So the solution is to miniaturize his father and banish him to dollhouse and possibly be turned into a wooden doll?
 

InTheLight

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Do you think it was a good idea for the Doctor to leave a little boy with those kinds of power in the care of Alex and Claire? What happens when he reaches puberty and gets bullied? Won't he use his powers again?
 

Don

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Do you think it was a good idea for the Doctor to leave a little boy with those kinds of power in the care of Alex and Claire? What happens when he reaches puberty and gets bullied? Won't he use his powers again?
Didn't the Doctor say something about making another house call when the boy reached puberty?....

:laugh:
 

Don

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Okay, last two episodes (The Girl Who Waited and God Complex): Not bad. Quite the build-up to the final episodes for the "death" of the Doctor....

Not sure how I feel about the seeming departure of Amy and Rory....
 

InTheLight

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Okay, last two episodes (The Girl Who Waited and God Complex): Not bad. Quite the build-up to the final episodes for the "death" of the Doctor....

Yes, I enjoyed the last two episodes.


Not sure how I feel about the seeming departure of Amy and Rory....

It's a recurring event in Doctor Who's history. Companions move on, the Doctor gets new companions.
 

ccrobinson

Active Member
I can't help but think about RTD's season finales in comparison to the finales under Moffat.

I liked Bad Wolf/Parting of the Ways very much. After 6 seasons of New Who, it's still one of the best season finale stories we've seen. Army of Ghosts/Doomsday was close behind it, but we started moving into silliness with Last of the Time Lords. For the brilliant buildup of Utopia (last 15 minutes still some of the best Doctor Who I've seen) and Sound of Drums, Tinkerbell Jesus in LotTL makes it awfully hard to watch without being embarrassed. And The Stolen Earth/Journey's End, aka Companionfest '08, is nearly unwatchable with the Doctor reduced to helplessness, unable to do anything but shout at Davros.

In direct opposition to RTD, Moffat's Doctor does nothing in The Pandorica Opens/The Big Bang and The Wedding of River Song but take action, as befitting the title character of the show. In addition, Moffat did not 1, but 2, end of reality-type stories and did them with more believeability, real humor and just plain heart and soul than RTD could begin to muster. Also in direct opposition to RTD, Moffat didn't do things to the Companions that were unforgiveable. What he did to Rose was almost forgiveable, but what he did to Donna Noble was totally unforgiveable. Not even the attempt at putting things right in The End of Time was enough to overcome what he did to her in Journey's End. We'll always love that RTD was the one who brought Doctor Who back to TV, but we don't, and shouldn't, love everything that he did to the Doctor and his Companions.

It may be a heavy-handed analogy, but watching RTD's melodrama of S4 compared to Moffat's real drama of S5 and S6 is like watching a child's fingerpainting against the brilliance of Van Gogh. Suffice it to say that, despite the hole in The Big Bang, I liked it very, very much and I liked The Wedding of River Song even more. I'm sure the ending of The Wedding of River Song will bother some who want everything answered in a tidy, little package, but I'm quite satisfied with what we just witnessed.

As it was put by a poster on the Syfy forums:

Steven Moffat has single handedly extinguished the crazy world of RTD Doctor Who, thankfully, by that episode. No more shifting planets in the sky and the Tardis pulling the earth by tractor beams. With this ending, the Doctor can go back to saving the planet in his own small way like it should be and always was.

Very true. If you loved Classic Who, where the Doctor quietly saved the world and the universe countless times without anybody but maybe a handful of people knowing, then you have to love what Moffat accomplished in the S5 and S6 season finales. And while it seemed like an interminable summer break, the great thing about the season ending in October is that we're only 2 months away from the Christmas Special.

2 thumbs way up for S6 of Doctor Who.

:thumbs: :thumbs:
 

InTheLight

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
If you loved Classic Who, where the Doctor quietly saved the world and the universe countless times without anybody but maybe a handful of people knowing, then you have to love what Moffat accomplished in the S5 and S6 season finales.

For the most part I enjoyed S6. Some really good stories, Impossible Astronaut, The Doctor's Wife, The Girl Who Waited, etc. and only a couple of clunkers, Curse of the Black Spot, Night Terrors. However, I still maintain that the stories are fun to watch and enjoyable while viewing but the post-viewing analysis of the plot reveals weaknesses. A fun ride but don't look at the vehicle too closely once you get off.

Speaking of the classic series, I'd like to see some one-off stand alone stories that aren't a part of some overall story arc. The Tennant specials were good examples of this.

One more thing--I'm kind of disturbed by this notion that the mere action of speaking "The Question" out loud will cause Silence to Fall, or as was stated in the last episode, Silence Must Fall, hinting that there is some cataclysmic fate that will befall the universe. This makes the Doctor out to be some sort of a god. I liked it a lot better when he was a quirky time lord traveling about with reluctant companions and getting into trouble then using his wits to save the day. Now he is resetting the universe, using shape-shifting robots, taking on a fresh set of regenerations, etc.-- and his character has generally become way larger than life.
 
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