New KJV

[HankD]

............and the "nonsense" is that even with showing the difference between these two words, you all still fight against it. That is just plain nonsense, in the extreme! Go ahead Hank, continue to compromise with error, and
outright lies being promoted as truth.

Let me repeat michelle, the word in the original Greek is the same, there is no “these two words” in the inspired text, it has not been "ALTERED".

Slander me of what you will it won’t change that fact.

The KJV translators used "dynamic equivalence" by interpreting the nuance of the Greek word martureo as "record" rather than "witness" which indeed is legitimate (but actually weakens the explanation given by Jesus IMO). However to keep the same word "witness" in both passages as in the original MSS is also legitimate and even more so as a closer word-for-word translation.

Jesus never bore witness of Himself and even when the words of witness came out of His mouth they were not His as He explained to the Pharisees.

John 5:31-32
If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.
There is another that beareth witness of me; and I know that the witness which he witnesseth of me is true.

John 12:49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.

This is basically what they didn't understand...

"I and my Father are one".

HankD

 

[michelle]

--------------------------------------------------
The word is translated as witness sometimes in the KJV and as record sometimes in the KJV. There is no real distinction either way. In fact the case could be made that the NKJV translators showed more integrity in their translation as they were consistent while the KJV translators used different English words for the same Greek word.
---------------------------------------------------


And has been shown, the English DEFINITIONS are what make the DISTINCTION of WHICH English WORD is appropriate and ACCURATE rendering of the GREEK, as has been shown along with CONTEXT AND TRUTH.


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

[michelle]

--------------------------------------------------
The reality of this is that it is another straw man. This means nothing. Whether record or witness is used does not change the meaning. But unless you believe the KJV translators received advanced inspiration above the Greek Text they used to translate, this is another empty argument.
--------------------------------------------------


As has been shown it DOES, and shows that Jesus is a liar in this verse, in this version.


Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

[michelle]

--------------------------------------------------
The KJV translators used "dynamic equivalence" by interpreting the nuance of the Greek word martureo as "record" rather than "witness" which indeed is legitimate (but actually weakens the explanation given by Jesus IMO). However to keep the same word "witness" in both passages as in the original MSS is also legitimate and even more so as a closer word-for-word translation.
--------------------------------------------------


Wrong! They used FORMAL EQUIVALENCY. Dynamic Equivalency is used almost exclusively with the mv's and is every single time shown to be in error, as also in this case.


So you believe that where the NKJV has rendered the Greek word to an INACCURATE English WORD that shows that Jesus Christ is lying, strengthens the testimony of Jesus? How can this be, when it clearly has shown Jesus Christ as lying. How confused you really seem to be, and your immature knowledge of not only the Greek (as it so seems) along with your own native tongue and is lacking and suspect - this is a truth and fact, not an opinion, as your posts show this very clearly for all to see.


Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

[Bro Tony]

As has been shown

What has been shown is the ridiculous lengths some people will go to attack the Word of God. You have stated you do not know or understand Greek. How can you even speak to this issue. The text used by the KJV translators uses the word translated as witness, you cannot dispute this unless you believe they had authority from God to go beyond the inspired text. The Greek text does not make Jesus a liar, only in your mind. By the way, if the English translation has trouble with translating a word from the Greek, it is not the Greeks problem. That being said in this case your zeal to create a problem with a version you reject is wasted.

Bro Tony

 

[GeneMBridges]

No, michelle, it doesn't. In fact, since the same Greek word is used in the manuscript, this shows the translators were using a free hand, because they chose to use a particular word over another.

You can try and say the meaning is changed, but it's not, at all. The only persons that seem to be confused are those in the KJVO camp, a group I'm seriously beginning to think can't get past English 101.

In the first section, Jesus is using the Jewish idea of two or more witnesses needed to establish validity. Thus, if He was to testify alone, eg. bear witness of Himself, it would not be considered valid testimony.

The second example is an example in which He is basically saying, "I am the Son of God, and no matter what others may say about Me falsely, my testimony about myself is true...why? Because I know God, I speak from God, and I know where I come from and where I am going, and when I speak it is only what the Father gives me to speak, and the Father is not a liar." In other words, even if nobody else corroborates my own testimony, my testimony about myself is true, because any testimony I might give is not from myself on my own, I speak only what the Father tells me to speak.

One example is relative to a religious and cultural norm under the Jewish Law. The other is about Jesus own personal integrity being identical to that of the Father. It's as simple as that.

It's amazing the level of eisegetical nonsense the KJVO's will go to to "prove" their point.

 

[michelle]

---------------------------------------------------
Let me repeat michelle, the word in the original Greek is the same, there is no “these two words” in the inspired text, it has not been "ALTERED".
--------------------------------------------------


And let me also repeat for the umpteenth time, that the DEFINITIONS OF THESE TWO WORDS are not the same and show A DISTINCTION, that is CLEARLY EXPRESSED IN THE CONTEXT AND TRUTH. You think you know better than the men who studied and knew Greek and Hebrew better than their own language? I truly think not!


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

The KJV translators knew Greek and Hebrew better than English? I would LOVE to see evidence for that!

 

[russell55]

The bottom line is that the TR uses the same word in these verses, so when the NKJV uses the same word to translate them, you can't claim that shows the NKJV doesn't follow the TR.

All this example shows is that the NKJV doesn't follow the KJV. It actually proves that it follows the TR.

So, since this example won't work to show that the NKJV doesn't follow the TR, are there any legitimate example of where it doesn't follow the TR?

 

[michelle]

--------------------------------------------------

What has been shown is the ridiculous lengths some people will go to attack the Word of God.
--------------------------------------------------

Yes, it most assuredly does, doesn't it, as shown and evidenced in this verse alone of the NKJV, to make our beloved Saviour Jesus Christ to be a liar, and then all of you who defend this lie to compromise with error, for the pleasing of men, rather than God and his truth.


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

[russell55]

to make our beloved Saviour Jesus Christ to be a liar

It doesn't make him out to be a liar. It just means you have to understand what each statement means IN CONTEXT. It's not that difficult....

 

[michelle]

--------------------------------------------------
How can you even speak to this issue.
--------------------------------------------------

Because I am a born again believer in the Lord Jesus Christ, and He hasn't left me doubt about his words and truth, but has provided them for me, and to me, and many others, and other generations of believers. It is by these very scriptures that we are to test and prove ALL THINGS. I speak the English language, and the ENGLISH SCRIPTURES prove the verse in this modern ENGLISH version is in error, and has ALTERED THE TRUTH, and made JESUS CHRIST TO be a LIAR in this verse.


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

I think it is unfortunate that people could see Jesus as a liar in these verse .

 

[michelle]

--------------------------------------------------
The Greek text does not make Jesus a liar, only in your mind.
--------------------------------------------------

You are right, the Greek text does not make Jesus a liar, but the scholars and translators of today have.


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

[Bro Tony]

It is beyond me how anyone with any understanding at all can say that the NKJV makes Jesus out a liar. You have proven again that your hatred for any translation except the KJV has caused you to see what is not there. The Greek says what it says and the translators of the NKJV were faithful to the text. Your personal feelings about what the text says and how it is properly translated is irrelevant. We don't chose the truth by feelings, the Truth is what has been given to us, and it is unchangable.

Bro Tony

 

[michelle]

--------------------------------------------------
No, michelle, it doesn't. In fact, since the same Greek word is used in the manuscript, this shows the translators were using a free hand, because they chose to use a particular word over another.
--------------------------------------------------


You show forth your ignorance of not only the English language, but also the context and truth of and in the scriptures, by hiding behind the Greek, to which also shows your lack of understanding EVEN of a translation of THE GREEK into the English language.

I may not know or understand Greek words, but I DO UNDERSTAND MY OWN NATIVE LANGUAGE, and the SCRIPTURES GOD HAS PROVIDED TO ME in my language, to which in this verse, in the NKJV is WRONG, and shows Jesus Christ to be a liar. You can choose to believe this lie, but do not EXPECT me to believe it, or expect me to accept this lie, nor tell me I am wrong, and others are wrong for pointing the truth out to you, while claiming I cannot or do not know any better. He who is in me, is greater than he who is in the world.


Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

[michelle]

--------------------------------------------------
You can try and say the meaning is changed, but it's not, at all. The only persons that seem to be confused are those in the KJVO camp, a group I'm seriously beginning to think can't get past English 101.
--------------------------------------------------


I think you and many others ought to take a little time and look in the mirror. The definitions of these two words have been given and show that they are NOT THE SAME, and give a DISTINCTION to which is ACCURATE TO THE CONTEXT AND TRUTH, and to which is not, in this verse of scripture.


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

[michelle]

--------------------------------------------------
The second example is an example in which He is basically saying, "I am the Son of God, and no matter what others may say about Me falsely, my testimony about myself is true...why? Because I know God, I speak from God, and I know where I come from and where I am going, and when I speak it is only what the Father gives me to speak, and the Father is not a liar." In other words, even if nobody else corroborates my own testimony, my testimony about myself is true, because any testimony I might give is not from myself on my own, I speak only what the Father tells me to speak.
--------------------------------------------------


The second is speaking to the record of the scriptures about him, and how he bore record of that by his performance, by the witnesses. Please look to the English definitions of these two words, according to CONTEXT AND TRUTH. You are NOT DOING THIS and because of your fervor for the modern versions, and being blinded by some false label you are fighting against, are standing for, and compromising with an OBVIOUS LIE and ALTERATION OF SCRIPTURE - GODS VERY WORDS of truth.


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

[Bro Tony]

You show forth your ignorance of not only the English language, but also the context and truth of and in the scriptures, by hiding behind the Greek, to which also shows your lack of understanding EVEN of a translation of THE GREEK into the English lan

Michelle,

You really should not use the word ignorance when dealing with people who know the Greek and English. You have already stated that you are the one ignorant (not a slam, you just don't know it) of the Greek.

That being the case let me ask you a question. When there is a difference between the Greek Text and what the KJV translators wrote down, which is correct? Is the Greek Text from which the translation came from more authoritative than the translation? I think these are important questions, could you please answer them, they would clarify alot.

Bro Tony

 

[michelle]

--------------------------------------------------
The bottom line is that the TR uses the same word in these verses, so when the NKJV uses the same word to translate them, you can't claim that shows the NKJV doesn't follow the TR.

--------------------------------------------------


What it shows, and what is being claimed is that this version, in this verse is in ERROR, and shows forth AN ALTERATION of the truth that makes Jesus Christ to be lying. THis is what is ultimately IMPORTANT and RELEVANT. The translators, translated this WRONG. Now you must ask yourself why, knowing the definitions of these two words and the result of choosing the one over the other. THink with the mind of Christ, not with the mind of the world.


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle