New meaning for old verses

I will try to deal with all of the myths and misunderstandings in the above later tonight. (which is practically the entire post)

But in reading this, I would encourage you to actually READ UP on what Non-Cals ACTAULLY believe because you have are so off base most would even want to. It is comparable to telling a Catholic salvation is by grace and not of works. Unless they really want to know they will believe what they want.

 

No, not that belief WAS the criteria (as though it was the whole of it) but that belief was a part of the criteria in God's Choosing (there might have been more but scripture only tells us of this and the work of the Holy Spirit) , and that the Non-Cals believe He reveals it as such in scripture.
But maybe you know more than me on this since I'm no genius so I'll ask you.

Why did God choose you?
Or
Did God just arbitrarily choose?
If not, then upon what basis was His choice made?

Completely WRONG but also regarding knowledge.
God doesn't 'look down time' or 'see into time' He knows all things at once as though it is present (now).
So when God in His soveriegnty determined to save a people by His grace through faith, He ALREADY knew all things.

Yet here is the kicker, beyond knowing that God intended to save those of faith and that those of faith were part of His knowledge regarding His plan, we KNOW nothing more. We don't know what God thought or knew or much less even HOW God thinks. You don't know if God planned and then He knew (which is ridiculous IMO) or If in Gods knowledge (however it transpires) planned. Your group trys to center a portion of its theology upon a postulation that God must first decree and only THEN He knows what He knows. However, NO WHERE is this evidenced in scripture or supported in ANY way there in. But it is at the very heart of your understanding. The Non-Cals merely state that God planned and Knew simultaniously since we can get no other rendering from scripture.

I would encourage you to study up on 'election' both currently and historically regarding it's purpose and functionality through out culture.

Again wrong presumption.

But let me ask you this. Did God first determine to Kill His Son, and then decided He would make mankind fall into sin?

Again, you lack even the most basic of understand regarding my view to make this assumption.

Is there an order to Gods knowledge. Nothing in scripture declares anthing about it. There is an order to Gods plan, but His knowledge?
In Gods Ominiscience can He know all things of any order He chose to consider, if in fact He needs to?
I personally can not speak for the mind and knowledge of God, but I am assuming you think you can? Am I correct?

Again, postulation at it's worst.
Are you saying that God's knowledge has no influence on His pleasure, purpose and plan?
You ascribe God as not thinking first but simply declaring a thing, and yet to have a plan or purpose one must have thought it out in some measure to determine how it all comes together from the smallest organism to His second Coming. God is a God of order and not chaos though assumption is brought to bare here on my part, it is hard to think of God not thinking but blindly stating something and then aquiring a knowledge of it as He states it or 'makes it be'.

Is it not God who can determine if the saved will all be blonde haired and blue eyed, or those of faith? Is that not His soveriegn right to decide how and what He will do, or am I wrong here? I though God could do as He wished?

Apparently you don't understand soveriegnty.
He was not bound to choose those of faith to receive His grace, He, in His sovereignty chose it to be THAT WAY. Guess what - Even if there would never be a person on the planet who would be of faith it was still Gods soveriegn right to choose and it pleased Him. And He chose to save us by His grace through faith.

Ok, first - this makes NO sense. He loved Israel because He loved Israel.
Second - While Duet 7:8 states God loves them (and I have no problem with that), 10:15 states God 'set his heart in love on your fathers' and chose their offspring after them... This does not say what you just ascibed it.
Of course God loves or will set His desires upon those who will believe, why wouldn't He. BUT Gods love for His creation gave rise to His mercy through grace was given.

I agree. Yet so far you have not even remotely expressed the Non-Cals version even adiquately.

Again, you are incorrect in your summation of what the other side says or believes.
The Non-Cals ALL agree Man is damned based upon his sinnful rebellion. Being damned is exactly Mans fault. What is argued is that God determinded to save some and damn others before they did anything - as in - before sin was an issue.
This is why arguement must carefully understood in light that some say God damned a people to hell before God in His foreknowledge place them in sin.

Yes, He did and both groups are allowed into being that He might be glorified.
But what 'we' do not see scripture contending is that God decreed some for Hell not based on their choice. There are two groups of Calvinist on this issue to, you know. Most will say as the Non-Cal does - that man chose rebellion, sin, and thus eternal seperation of and from God. But not that this choice was outside the full and eternal knowledge of God, as though it snuck up on Him.

Yes, and no Non-Cal disagrees.

Yes, He could have if He so chose. But God wanted a humble and contrite heart not a robot. And God doesn't desire that any perish but that all SHOULD come to repentence. Is this not the God who commands all to repent? Why should He do that if He doesn't desire that they repent. Otherwise He would take pleasure in the death of the wicked, but we know scripture states He does not.

Very true, but He had a purpose and a plan in which those things did not fit to His pleasure.

Nope. There aren't many Calvinists who would agree either. Man is the ultimate cause of mans damnation.

part one ended:...

 

Part two:

Again, you have presumed incorrectly. Why did man need saving, if God did not already know that man would fall??
In the knowledge of God, He knew man if left to himself would fall and thus be under Gods condenation, but God gave man that choice. And at the same time gave him the truth that could save him. But man left to himself will seek after the flesh even in innocence (Adam and Eve). So God determining in His mind a criteria (or one of the criteria that we are privy to) is for the sake of saving those whom God desired in the first place - humble and contrite -

Yes, God created man who would condemn himself first in action through Adam and Eve, and then condemn himself by not rejecting the truth so as to save him.

But God did not damn man and then choose the means through which that damnation would come - sin.

Of course God has a glorifying purpose for creating hell. But it is only you who are ascribing to God that He is the first cause of sin in man and thus man is damned for what God has done. This is a hyper-Cals view, and not one accepted amounst the Majority of Cals.

This is why you need to read up on what the Non-Cals believes. Try asking what we mean, define certain things, and expound certain views.

 

Allan,
I read both you're both posts, but I don't think I can really respond to anything you've said.
You're bent on ignoring the consequences that your views on God's omniscience require of you.
Your consistent use of sarcasm is duly noted and I doubt I will really ever be able to have an edifying discussion with you.
And just for the record:
Deut 4:37

Deut. 7:7,8

Deut. 10:15

 

Nothing to respond to?!?!

At least show where Allan "ignored the consequences...that God's omniscience requires..."

Also:

...seems like one that could be answered...

Translation (IMO): I have nothing to say that can refute the truth.

Great posts, Allan! I'm glad there is someone on the BB that can so eloquently say what I am thinking, particlularly...

 

But the verse says all the Father give will come, not might come, not have to chose to come, but WILL come to Jesus. No free will involved in that.

 

We also do not believe all men are given the Gospel. There are many who (despite webdog saying there are not) never get to hear the Gospel. We have their survivors witness that they never heard the Gospel. This is your major stumbling block Allan. Yeah, you can say (as Webdog does) how can you prove this? By the testimony of those who were closest to them.... their family or thier survivors. NOT everyone is given "prevenient grace." As a matter of fact.... there is no such thing. Men are dead in their trespasses and sins.

 

I think it has already been pointed out there is no way to prove everyone has not heard. Family of survivors are not credible, as that is a still a second hand point of view.

 

Well when they are on their deathbed and the family is surrounding them, knowing they had never heard any such thing as a "Gospel", and then they die....... that is pretty good proof. Prove they don't know Webdog. Pretty lame..... lol.

 

It really makes no difference who surrounds who on their death bed. Nobody is inside anybody's mind...is with them 24 hours a day, etc. There is no way another human being can state 100% factually what somebody else has witnessed in their lifetime. Your rendition sounds almost psychic.

I don't have to prove a negative...it's a given. I know for a fact no human being knows for certain what is in another human being mind. If they did, they would be God.

 

Yes. This is how I see it, too.

 

John 12:32 says Chrsist draws all men. Why aren't all men saved, then?

However you want to cut it, it is not a true choice by definition. If something is an "only choice"...it's a non choice.

 

Because "all men" means "all men without distinction", not "all men without exception".

 

The choice would depend if financially it could become a reality,or if I wanted to part ways with my money. Since the "love of money" (selfishness) is the root of all evil, many when presented between God and self choose self.

What choice do those get who have a choice between a crime infested school...and a crime infested school? A choice demands two options for it to be a choice. If God does not present the option of truly coming to Him, there is no choice.

 

God commands all men everywhere to repent and believe the Gospel.

 

Amy, both you and DonnA are right. I think Donna is looking at the relationship of free will to salvation through the telescope, and you're looking at it through the microscope. In a broad sense, salvation has nothing to the free will of man, but in a closer look, we see that man, as you said, "when faced with the choice between the revealed God and His goodness and the misery that we are in, we will choose God."

God changes man's nature, which changes his will, and affects his choices. That's how it works, all to His Glory!

 

So then how do you reconcile that with those who see and know God's glory, majesty(Godhead), KNOW the TRUTH, and even KNOW the Judgment of God which is coming but still WILL NOT choose God. Scripture states they see the 'revealed God' and 'His goodness' and 'Holiness' and even 'His Judgment to come' and STILL will NOT choose God.

Or these who KNOW the truth but reject it.

Notice please they were not damned until AFTER they reject the truth God revealed TO THEM, and it is the same in Rom 1.
Another is below:

We are accountable for what we do with the Truth that God reveals to us. We can accept it or reject it according to the word of God. God does not turn us over to ourselves (our own choice) until we have rejected the truth He has given whether in nature/conscience or the fulness of that truth Christ Himself. God hardens our hearts after rejection because it is for THAT CAUSE He will send forth a strong delusion to believe the lie that we might be damned who believed not/rejected the truth.

Many more can be cited in accordance with the above but one more scripture also states in Heb 3:15-

We see the call (so to speak) went out to ALL Israel for ALL to partake in, but NOT all believed for some hardened their hearts to the truth. The same with now.

 

Yet Amy not all will believe that which God reveals. Read my previous post to JD showing this.