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New Perspective on Paul: Good, Bad, or Neutral?

preacher4truth

Active Member
I'll admit that I'm still searching and even that I have been greatly influenced recently b/c I have been reading many of Wright's seminal work in NT studies. That said, I don't claim to be an expert in the debate. However, let me offer my conclusions.


To state that Wright is preaching "another gospel" is to equate him as accursed and damned. If that be the case, you are declaring him apostate and not a true follower of Jesus.

But at close examination, he argues his case and it is compelling enough to say that his gospel is not "another gospel." In fact, it sounds like the lordship gospel presentation that you'll hear from Piper, Washer, MacArthur and others. The gospel is Jesus Christ is Lord. He upholds faith in that message which demands a repentant lifestyle of lordship to Jesus.

It is not so much that he is denying justification by faith but defining it differently. But the essentials of the gospel and man's conversion have not changed. Only that your concept of justification related to imputed righteousness of Jesus is his vindication of God's judgment which is based on previous forgiveness and entrance into God's covenant community.

Now his concept of imputed righteousness is a bit difficult for me b/c it is a doctrine that I have taught and been taught many years. But he does make some valid arguments, and they should not be summarily dismissed b/c it goes against a tradition. That is not the reformation theology I have come to know and appreciate.

And he still admits that we have been given a righteousness from God based on Phil. 3:10f. He also admits a union with Messiah. So as the Messiah is, so are we. Only the Messiah was vindicated to be righteous, and thus so are we being crucified with him and raised with him.

The only contention as it relates to imputed righteousness is that he is not talking of that doctrine in relationship to justification. He distinguishes and moves it to another part of the salvation process. So far, he seems fairly orthodox though a bit different from the tradition. But in total, not out in left field.

He also says that justification or vindication is something we do, which Paul says as well. But he, as a reformed theologian, also admits that it is a work still wrought by and through the Holy Spirit. What I appreciate is that he is taking difficult statements in Romans 2 (specifically v. 13) about works related to justification and giving them an answer that fits the context of history and the Jewish audience that it was addressed in chps. 2-3.

Conclusion: I like that Wright is still studying and working at making sense of Scripture. He is doing a fine job of putting Scripture in a good working system that patches up the wholes of Luther and Calvin. Wright's perspective of Paul should be given another day in court. I'm not sure if I'm there, but his views are convincing. I don't see it as heterodoxy at all.

What we have here are new teachings. That in itself should be alarming enough.

I'm not surprised by any that believe his false teachings.

No, he's denying justification by faith, not just defining it differently. It's a subtle departure from truth.

Along comes a man who wants to redefine orhtodox truth, and deceives others as he does so. 'It all sounds so good.'

I don't care really what he admits all along the way, it's the consummation of his thought and of his Gospel that matters, that in it, it's not really Christ who gives us final justification, it's self. That is 100% heresy. He also denies that righteousness can be imputed from one person to another, in this case from Christ to us.

So yes, I say he preaches a false Gospel with absolutely no reservation.
 

glfredrick

New Member
GL, that is not what I am saying. I am simply attempting to state, that "science and mathematics" at their best attempt to deal with the observable and repeatable, whereas "metaphysics" is not as able to do so, as it deals with the philosophical in nature. Both are equally suited in their pursuit of truth, the quantifiable nature of math and science makes it more "appealing" and meaningful to some. To those, metaphysical arguments and discussions lack a certain sense of credibility. This group is those who would fall within the realm of being strictly naturalists.

Interesting...

I'd say that a proper philosophical proposition carries more weight than "quantifiable data". In fact, your point IS philosophical, not quantitatively derived... QED :laugh:
 

preacher4truth

Active Member
The NPP stems FROM the work of the Jesus Seminar and the earlier works in liberal Christianity, i.e., historical higher critical method, that fostered its development. The "search for the historical Jesus" turned into "the search for the historical Paul" with similar issues.

I see.

These teachings are subtle and erroneous, as Thomas Schreiner and Mark Seifrid have pointed out.

The thing I see is that this has made the Gospel a works Gospel. At one point NPP teaches we are justified by Christ, or at least it will make that statement as a tenet of belief. Yet, and as always is the case, one must delve into what is actually taught, not what one uses as a statement of belief. In this case there is the desire to play on both sides of the fence with justification, but the final result in NPP is that we are finally justified by works, not solely via Christ. In addition there is the problem of the teaching that righteousness cannot be imputed from one to another.

NPP is subtle yet erroneous. I believe it is a false Gospel.
 

Greektim

Well-Known Member
What we have here are new teachings. That in itself should be alarming enough.

I'm not surprised by any that believe his false teachings.

No, he's denying justification by faith, not just defining it differently. It's a subtle departure from truth.

Along comes a man who wants to redefine orhtodox truth, and deceives others as he does so. 'It all sounds so good.'

I don't care really what he admits all along the way, it's the consummation of his thought and of his Gospel that matters, that in it, it's not really Christ who gives us final justification, it's self. That is 100% heresy. He also denies that righteousness can be imputed from one person to another, in this case from Christ to us.

So yes, I say he preaches a false Gospel with absolutely no reservation.
But what you are doing is maintaining your definition of "justification" and applying it to Wright's words as if he means the same thing. Thus he would be saying something heretical, perhaps. But even he would say that justification as a judicial announcement comes from a judge, in this case God. Is that too heretical?

And let's be honest... if you major contention is "a new teaching" when Wright is arguing the rediscovery of an old teaching, then your point is not only anti-reformational (sola tradition not sola scriptura) but self defeating b/c Luther's thoughts on justification were new at that time as well. Though you would probably argue that he was rediscovering them, so would Wright.

The difference is, Luther was culturally coming out of a world where God's righteousness could be merited by adherence to the Law. So Luther was more inclined to come away with the interpretation he did. Paul, as history is bearing out, did not deal with that as much as we have been taught (much of it based on Luther's understanding). So if you argue historically, your contention still fails.
 
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mandym

New Member
And let's be honest... if you major contention is "a new teaching" when Wright is arguing the rediscovery of an old teaching, then your point is not only anti-reformational (sola tradition not sola scriptura) but self defeating b/c Luther's thoughts on justification were new at that time as well. Though you would probably argue that he was rediscovering them, so would Wright.

Which is absurd. The church at the time held a wrong view under the threat of life and limb to anyone who would challenge it. There was no room for open discussion. So you comparison between Luther and Wright fails. Since Luther the field of discussion has been wide open. So there is no chance he is rediscovering anything. It is a nice ploy to defend the indefensible but it is sophomoric at best. and Luther's view was not new, the view of Wright and his ilk is.
 

preacher4truth

Active Member
But what you are doing is maintaining your definition of "justification" and applying it to Wright's words as if he means the same thing. Thus he would be saying something heretical, perhaps. But even he would say that justification as a judicial announcement comes from a judge, in this case God. Is that too heretical?

And let's be honest... if you major contention is "a new teaching" when Wright is arguing the rediscovery of an old teaching, then your point is not only anti-reformational (sola tradition not sola scriptura) but self defeating b/c Luther's thoughts on justification were new at that time as well. Though you would probably argue that he was rediscovering them, so would Wright.

The difference is, Luther was culturally coming out of a world where God's righteousness could be merited by adherence to the Law. So Luther was more inclined to come away with the interpretation he did. Paul, as history is bearing out, did not deal with that as much as we have been taught (much of it based on Luther's understanding). So if you argue historically, your contention still fails.

He is saying something heretical, there is no perhaps to it. Secondly I am not applying my interpretation of justification and applying it to Wrights words. You're applying a strawman against me here as an convenient excuse.

Biblically, in Christ, alone, we are eternally, supernaturally and instantaneously justified. He says no, we are justified by what we do finally, while attempting to maintain that Christ did it...too. Sound familair? That's false teaching. As Paul says it is either or, not both, as ni Galatians, Php. 3 &c.

So a rediscovery of an old teaching makes it orthodox? Wonder why it didn't remain in the forefront?

Context of Luther doesn't diminish what he was teaching about justification as being Biblically true. What you are doing is saying that Luthers Gospel was only true contemporaneously, but that now it is antiquated. Truth is always truth, no matter what culture or setting it is in. Yet along comes NPP, and you are embracing this error, which says we've all had it wrong. Yet Luther simply preached the truth of the Gospel and believed in its efficacy and ability to save.

I'd be leary of any new wind of doctrines coming along.

Let’s be clear here:

The Gospel is sufficient alone to save one for all eternity, it is the power of God unto salvation, Romans 1:16, 1 Corinthians 1:18.

Taking away from the Gospel or adding to the Gospel is to render it another Gospel, and there is no other, Galatians 1:8-10.

To say that we are justified by Christ is a good and truthful thing to say. But what is added to this? In NPP it is that we make our justification final. This is both adding to and taking away from the Gospel, in that it makes the Gospel insufficient while at the same time attempting to cling to it being sufficient on its own. Either it is or it is not, it cannot be both. This is no different than what the Judaizers did with the Gospel. All false teachings couple truth with error, and in NPP the Gospel is rendered insufficient and incomplete in the ways I've just described. If you want to believe that, that's up to you. I, as many others who are scholars reject this false teaching as another Gospel. Certainly there is an 'intellectual' note that comes with this, and makes it attractive to some, but to be blunt the NPP Gospel is false.

Again, it is what a person does with, and how far and to what extent the person applies the Gospel that makes the person a foe or an ally in this ministry. NPP is no ally in the truth of the Gospel. The NPP Gospel is incomplete, as it takes away from and adds to it, and makes the Gospel insufficient for salvation on its own.
 

Greektim

Well-Known Member
He is saying something heretical, there is no perhaps to it. Secondly I am not applying my interpretation of justification and applying it to Wrights words. You're applying a strawman against me here as an convenient excuse.

Biblically, in Christ, alone, we are eternally, supernaturally and instantaneously justified. He says no, we are justified by what we do finally, while attempting to maintain that Christ did it...too. Sound familair? That's false teaching. As Paul says it is either or, not both, as ni Galatians, Php. 3 &c.

So a rediscovery of an old teaching makes it orthodox? Wonder why it didn't remain in the forefront?

Context of Luther doesn't diminish what he was teaching about justification as being Biblically true. What you are doing is saying that Luthers Gospel was only true contemporaneously, but that now it is antiquated. Truth is always truth, no matter what culture or setting it is in. Yet along comes NPP, and you are embracing this error, which says we've all had it wrong. Yet Luther simply preached the truth of the Gospel and believed in its efficacy and ability to save.

I'd be leary of any new wind of doctrines coming along.

Let’s be clear here:

The Gospel is sufficient alone to save one for all eternity, it is the power of God unto salvation, Romans 1:16, 1 Corinthians 1:18.

Taking away from the Gospel or adding to the Gospel is to render it another Gospel, and there is no other, Galatians 1:8-10.

To say that we are justified by Christ is a good and truthful thing to say. But what is added to this? In NPP it is that we make our justification final. This is both adding to and taking away from the Gospel, in that it makes the Gospel insufficient while at the same time attempting to cling to it being sufficient on its own. Either it is or it is not, it cannot be both. This is no different than what the Judaizers did with the Gospel. All false teachings couple truth with error, and in NPP the Gospel is rendered insufficient and incomplete in the ways I've just described. If you want to believe that, that's up to you. I, as many others who are scholars reject this false teaching as another Gospel. Certainly there is an 'intellectual' note that comes with this, and makes it attractive to some, but to be blunt the NPP Gospel is false.

Again, it is what a person does with, and how far and to what extent the person applies the Gospel that makes the person a foe or an ally in this ministry. NPP is no ally in the truth of the Gospel. The NPP Gospel is incomplete, as it takes away from and adds to it, and makes the Gospel insufficient for salvation on its own.
Quick comment before I go and do a lengthier one later:

You are misrperesenting Wright. He is saying that our works justify us. But what he means by justification is not how you are defining it. So I'm not making the straw man. I am presenting his views as correctly as possible. I'm using his definition of justification (vindication). Apply that to his words and then go from there.
 

preacher4truth

Active Member
Quick comment before I go and do a lengthier one later:

You are misrperesenting Wright. He is saying that our works justify us. But what he means by justification is not how you are defining it. So I'm not making the straw man. I am presenting his views as correctly as possible. I'm using his definition of justification (vindication). Apply that to his words and then go from there.

Not so. Other scholars have pointed out his same error.

Your strawman has duplicated itself, as you misrepresent Wright and me.
 

quantumfaith

Active Member
Interesting...

I'd say that a proper philosophical proposition carries more weight than "quantifiable data". In fact, your point IS philosophical, not quantitatively derived... QED :laugh:

Well of course you would "say that" GL, you operate more in the metaphysical realm, I know you have a "broader" education, but your emphasis, being your role as a pastor is much more involved in the metaphysical (philosophical). I operate more in the quantifiable domain, but I am not entirely devoid of the philosophical. And as you know, mathematics itself can be thought of being entirely philosophical.
 

glfredrick

New Member
Well of course you would "say that" GL, you operate more in the metaphysical realm, I know you have a "broader" education, but your emphasis, being your role as a pastor is much more involved in the metaphysical (philosophical). I operate more in the quantifiable domain, but I am not entirely devoid of the philosophical. And as you know, mathematics itself can be thought of being entirely philosophical.

Thanks for the gentle poke...

But my larger point was that your point about empirical evidence is in fact, in itself, a philosophical argument. Difficult to escape the queen of all disciplines, ey? :laugh:
 

quantumfaith

Active Member
But what you are doing is maintaining your definition of "justification" and applying it to Wright's words as if he means the same thing. Thus he would be saying something heretical, perhaps. But even he would say that justification as a judicial announcement comes from a judge, in this case God. Is that too heretical?

And let's be honest... if you major contention is "a new teaching" when Wright is arguing the rediscovery of an old teaching, then your point is not only anti-reformational (sola tradition not sola scriptura) but self defeating b/c Luther's thoughts on justification were new at that time as well. Though you would probably argue that he was rediscovering them, so would Wright.

The difference is, Luther was culturally coming out of a world where God's righteousness could be merited by adherence to the Law. So Luther was more inclined to come away with the interpretation he did. Paul, as history is bearing out, did not deal with that as much as we have been taught (much of it based on Luther's understanding). So if you argue historically, your contention still fails.

:applause::applause::thumbs::thumbs:
 

quantumfaith

Active Member
Thanks for the gentle poke...

But my larger point was that your point about empirical evidence is in fact, in itself, a philosophical argument. Difficult to escape the queen of all disciplines, ey? :laugh:

I am just a little bit "lost".. I did not intend a poke. Give me an equation!!!! :)
 

glfredrick

New Member
Quick comment before I go and do a lengthier one later:

You are misrperesenting Wright. He is saying that our works justify us. But what he means by justification is not how you are defining it. So I'm not making the straw man. I am presenting his views as correctly as possible. I'm using his definition of justification (vindication). Apply that to his words and then go from there.

This misrepresentation of justification IS the issue... There is no application that makes it all right. RCC sees justification as a process -- precisely the way it is applied in the NPP -- hence the issues with a throwback view of the doctrine.
 

preacher4truth

Active Member
This misrepresentation of justification IS the issue... There is no application that makes it all right. RCC sees justification as a process -- precisely the way it is applied in the NPP -- hence the issues with a throwback view of the doctrine.

Exactly.

It is a distortion of Gospel truth.
 

preachinjesus

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Wow, well its always nice to go to bed and then come back and see we've got labels like heresy and false teacher running around.

Until we get some sanity to these posts I'm not going to get too invested outside of my original two posts, which I still stand by as germane. Perhaps the biggest issue is that too many people are jumping on bad understanding of the NPP work.

NPP doesn't just have to do with justification. (I've said this before)

There is a whole historiographic aspect to this discussion which brings in relevant discussions about the setting and context of Pauline theology given his predispostions and formulations within his theological context. It is technical but informed lay people can understand what is going on. The contribution of NPP has been, primarily, that we are better understanding why and how Paul navigated theologically during the formative years of Christianity. It is helping biblical theology and not hurting it.

As for our good brother in Christ, Tom Wright...he's a brilliant, orthodox, profound scholar who has contributed the foundations for a better understanding of the historical context in which Paul, and the other NT writers, wrote. His views on justification aren't new and they aren't heretical. I disagree with them but do so reasonably and without resorting to churlish libels. I was recently at a forum discussing the nature of the first century environment which led to the creation of the NT. My part was giving a view informed by Wright, Bauckham, Hurtado, etc about the growth of Christianity so quickly as a good argument for its viability. One of the other panelist (an agnostic who doubts a lot of my positions) actually commended others to read Wright because he is so good at his historiography.

Essentially, and I'll try to close with this, the conversation that is going on here is misindentifying NPP. GreekTim is helpful in offering a corrective in more detail than I care to go into right now. The issues are complicated and, frankly, have been settled for about a decade now. There is a lot to be gained from NPP research and, honestly, a lot of the translations you hold in your hands (or use electronically) are the beneficiaries of this. There are some aspects of NPP which should give us pause and that we can certainly say that isn't helpful. But there isn't just one NPP position out there.

Finally, and I can't say this enough, Wright's views of justification are his and not indicative of NPP work. If you think this is all there is you're wrong and I really can't help you understand otherwise. I can list about ten scholars who identify with NPP and disagree with Wright on justification. So get over it and let's move on to the issues germane to the discussion...what NPP actually is.
 

quantumfaith

Active Member
Wow, well its always nice to go to bed and then come back and see we've got labels like heresy and false teacher running around.

Until we get some sanity to these posts I'm not going to get too invested outside of my original two posts, which I still stand by as germane. Perhaps the biggest issue is that too many people are jumping on bad understanding of the NPP work.

NPP doesn't just have to do with justification. (I've said this before)

There is a whole historiographic aspect to this discussion which brings in relevant discussions about the setting and context of Pauline theology given his predispostions and formulations within his theological context. It is technical but informed lay people can understand what is going on. The contribution of NPP has been, primarily, that we are better understanding why and how Paul navigated theologically during the formative years of Christianity. It is helping biblical theology and not hurting it.

As for our good brother in Christ, Tom Wright...he's a brilliant, orthodox, profound scholar who has contributed the foundations for a better understanding of the historical context in which Paul, and the other NT writers, wrote. His views on justification aren't new and they aren't heretical. I disagree with them but do so reasonably and without resorting to churlish libels. I was recently at a forum discussing the nature of the first century environment which led to the creation of the NT. My part was giving a view informed by Wright, Bauckham, Hurtado, etc about the growth of Christianity so quickly as a good argument for its viability. One of the other panelist (an agnostic who doubts a lot of my positions) actually commended others to read Wright because he is so good at his historiography.

Essentially, and I'll try to close with this, the conversation that is going on here is misindentifying NPP. GreekTim is helpful in offering a corrective in more detail than I care to go into right now. The issues are complicated and, frankly, have been settled for about a decade now. There is a lot to be gained from NPP research and, honestly, a lot of the translations you hold in your hands (or use electronically) are the beneficiaries of this. There are some aspects of NPP which should give us pause and that we can certainly say that isn't helpful. But there isn't just one NPP position out there.

Finally, and I can't say this enough, Wright's views of justification are his and not indicative of NPP work. If you think this is all there is you're wrong and I really can't help you understand otherwise. I can list about ten scholars who identify with NPP and disagree with Wright on justification. So get over it and let's move on to the issues germane to the discussion...what NPP actually is.


Thanks Preachinjesus. Give us (me) a broader and please a "laymans" perspective on the other issues that NPP touches upon. One that I have in mind, correct me if I am wrong, is the "attitude" of Jews being smug in their "election" and totally against the inclusion of the pagan gentiles.
 
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