New variant C.1.2 mutant most infectious yet and may evade vaccines

[Andre]

The vaccines are driving the variant.

Not according to this expert:

Virologist Friedemann Weber from Justus Liebig University in the western German city of Giessen told DW that it was not the vaccinated who gave rise to new escape mutations and variants, but the unvaccinated: "It was infected people who provided a breeding ground for the new variant and immune escape of the virus."

 

[JonC]

Not according to this expert:

Virologist Friedemann Weber from Justus Liebig University in the western German city of Giessen told DW that it was not the vaccinated who gave rise to new escape mutations and variants, but the unvaccinated: "It was infected people who provided a breeding ground for the new variant and immune escape of the virus."

This makes sense.

 

[Andre]

...but it also mutates in response to vaccines.

Please site your source.

 

[nonaeroterraqueous]

Mutation only serves to make it different and harder for the immune system to recognize. It does not make the virus inherently worse. For the unvaccinated, the virus was a super-bug with super-strong powers of adhesion with its powerful spikes. Any change from that is an improvement in the situation. For the vaccinated, it's an arsenal of mismatched antibodies that won't work, plus the added risk of ADE.

As it changes and changes, eventually it will be nothing but a common cold...but what will it be to the vaccinated, and will the government ever stop treating it like the Black Death?

 

[Scott Downey]

Mutation only serves to make it different and harder for the immune system to recognize. It does not make the virus inherently worse. For the unvaccinated, the virus was a super-bug with super-strong powers of adhesion with its powerful spikes. Any change from that is an improvement in the situation. For the vaccinated, it's an arsenal of mismatched antibodies that won't work, plus the added risk of ADE.

As it changes and changes, eventually it will be nothing but a common cold...but what will it be to the vaccinated, and will the government ever stop treating it like the Black Death?

With no vaccine, the immune system adapts quickly to variants if it has encountered something similar beforehand.
With no prior exposure, most people's immune system still destroys this virus eventually.
There will be an eventual herd immunity of sorts among the healthy and younger people. Immunity is also passed to infants who breast feed.
Older people naturally weaken and their body eventually cant cope with the many internal bodily problems and external environmental threats, that is the way things are.

All that is why the american native peoples died of European diseases at first as their communities had never had exposure to those old world diseases.
Diseases that did not kill Europeans but could make them sick killed close to 100% of some indigenous groups.

People seem to have forgotten the flu virus kills 10's of thousands a year here in the US.

 

[kyredneck]

Can anyone find a purely medical study that is obviously sans political influence??

I like this one out of Israel:

Natural Immunity for the WIN! Israeli Study Suggests COVID-19 Vaccine Policies Should Change Now – PJ Media

Excerpts:

"The debate that never should have started is over. Thankfully, one nation in the world recognized natural immunity to COVID-19 in their vaccine program and has the data to force the issue in other countries...."

"...Israel used the Pfizer/BioNTech vaccine exclusively in their national vaccination program. When it implemented a vaccine passport program, the previously infected were provided with a passport and excluded from the vaccination push. Later, these individuals were allowed to receive one dose of the vaccine if they chose to, but it was not required to maintain their passports...."

"...The preprint study includes over 700,000 Israelis in a matched cohort methodology. It includes MHS members 16 years and older who were vaccinated or had a documented SARS-CoV-2 infection before February 28, 2021. It compared those who were vaccinated and never infected, the recovered, and those who opted to take the single vaccine dose. The rich data set includes vaccination with dates, diagnosed infections, symptom profiles, hospitalizations, and deaths. Researchers evaluated four outcomes: documented RT-PCR confirmed SARS-CoV-2 disease, COVID-19, COVID-19-related hospitalization, and death.

After adjusting for comorbidities, there was a 13-fold increased risk for a breakthrough infection following vaccination instead of reinfection after recovery. The vaccinated subjects had a 27-fold increased risk for symptomatic COVID-19 than the previously recovered. There were eight hospitalized patients among the vaccinated and one among the recovered cohort. Thankfully, there were no deaths...."


IOW, if you've been previously infected you don't need the jab.

 

[Andre]

Can anyone find a purely medical study that is obviously sans political influence??.......

Where is your evidence that politics has in any significantly distorted what we are hearing from the CDC (and from Dr. Fauci) about covid and the vaccines?

 

[Andre]

With no vaccine, the immune system adapts quickly to variants if it has encountered something similar beforehand.

You may be right, but please provide a citation.

 

[JonC]

With no vaccine, the immune system adapts quickly to variants if it has encountered something similar beforehand.

With vaccines the body does as well (depending on the effectiveness of the vaccine). The issue is with or without vaccines we get varients. With covid it appears varients are coming from low vaccinated areas.

 

[kyredneck]

PJ Media

...is not the only source that carried this story..

has a somewhat disreputable history. For example:

So what's your point? Did Stacey Lennox @ PJ Media lie about the study? Do you have any first hand knowledge of this study out of Israel that disputes the claims that were made?

 

[Andre]

I like this one out of Israel:

Natural Immunity for the WIN! Israeli Study Suggests COVID-19 Vaccine Policies Should Change Now – PJ Media

Just to be clear: as I read the study, all that is demonstrated is that people who have had Covid do not need the vaccine. But just in case there is any misunderstanding, this is not an argument for either of the following two positions:

- people who have not yet had Covid will not benefit from the vaccine.
- achieving natural herd immunity is a better strategy than mass vaccination.

 

[kyredneck]

Just to be clear: as I read the study, all that is demonstrated is that people who have had Covid do not need the vaccine.

Yea, I picked up on that...

IOW, if you've been previously infected you don't need the jab.

 

[Andre]

So what's your point? Did Stacey Lennox @ PJ Media lie about the study? Do you have any first hand knowledge of this study out of Israel that disputes the claims that were made?

First, the credibility of a source is a relevant consideration. However, as I have just acknowledged, it appears that the study is indeed legit.

However, I suggest that the headline from PJ Media is misleading:

Natural Immunity for the WIN! Israeli Study Suggests COVID-19 Vaccine Policies Should Change Now – PJ Media

This is misleading in the sense that the study certainly does not show that pursuing a natural herd immunity strategy is better than going with mass vaccination.

You may well argue that the headline is not implying this; however, I think it is clearly inviting the reader to draw such a conclusion. And this is misleading. So it is no surprise to me that PJ Media has a bit of a fuzzy reputation. Another example:

In January 2020, PJ Media published a column by one of their writers,[32] Robert B. Spencer, also founder and director of the anti-Muslim conspiracy blog Jihad Watch, in which he stated that congresswoman Ilhan Omar had given Iran military advice by suggesting it could target Trump hotels, and thus committed treason.[33] Fact-checkers at Snopes rated this claim false.

 

[Reynolds]

New Covid variant detected in South Africa is the 'most mutated variant so far' | Daily Mail Online

Now present in England.

• C.1.2 strain linked with 'increased transmissibility' and 'could be more infectious'
• Variant first detected in South Africa and also been found in England and China
• New strain has a mutation rate of about 41.8 mutations per year, scientists say

It is doing exactly what the warnings of virologists have been saying, that vaccination in an epidemic drives viral mutations and that corona viruses mutate to evade vaccines.

While more research is required 'to determine the functional impact of these mutations', scientists warned the latest variant, which has 'mutated substantially', could help the virus evade antibodies and immune responses.

If true, the entire vaccination effort is for naught. Now a natural immunity would be better to have had developed by your immune system rather than a manufactured immune response to a single spike protein. I expect they will now develop a new vaccine and revaccinate all the vaccinated.
the virus will continue to fractionate into many different variants, so this cycle will not stop, just like the flu, and the bodies of people will continually be loaded with new varieties of mRNA from new vaccines.

If it "evades vaccines" this will be the variant that makes people wish they had not taken the jab. When a variant truly breaks through the vax, you will see it wreak havoc on the immune systems who were damaged by the vax.

 

[JonC]

"the clearest evidence of this has been Beta, the South Africa variant, and the J&J vaccine, where neutralizing antibodies were undetectable in Penny Moore’s lab’s data in about 85 percent of these individuals. And yet the J&J vaccine was essentially just as effective against Beta as it was against other variants, indicating that there’s other aspects of vaccine immunity that were providing that protection, and I think that’s probably T cells. "

"it’s infections cause variants, right? It’s like every single infection is a new opportunity for a variant. So the way to stop variants is to stop infections, and certainly in this country, if people were vaccinated, we would not have the Delta surges we’re having and those surges are certainly potential sources of new variants. "

Covid-19 Vaccine Immunity and the Impact of Variants - United States Department of State

Immune Response From mRNA COVID-19 Vaccines Is More Robust Than Natural Infection

 

[Bible Thumpin n Gun Totin]

I think it's unfortunate, but the only way to beat Covid is natural herd immunity.
India has taken that approach and seems to be faring much better than we are. Their deaths plummeted when they shifted focus away from vax and to treatment.

I concur. The only way out of this is to let most everyone get it, and get herd immunity or at least herd "resiliency' among the population. Until we do that, this is not going away. For the vast majority of the population this virus is a non-issue.

Off I go to go eat at a restaurant .

 

[Scott Downey]

"the clearest evidence of this has been Beta, the South Africa variant, and the J&J vaccine, where neutralizing antibodies were undetectable in Penny Moore’s lab’s data in about 85 percent of these individuals. And yet the J&J vaccine was essentially just as effective against Beta as it was against other variants, indicating that there’s other aspects of vaccine immunity that were providing that protection, and I think that’s probably T cells. "

"it’s infections cause variants, right? It’s like every single infection is a new opportunity for a variant. So the way to stop variants is to stop infections, and certainly in this country, if people were vaccinated, we would not have the Delta surges we’re having and those surges are certainly potential sources of new variants. "

Covid-19 Vaccine Immunity and the Impact of Variants - United States Department of State

Immune Response From mRNA COVID-19 Vaccines Is More Robust Than Natural Infection

Except you know why this is partially fake news? (second weblink)
“MRNA vaccine induced antibody levels are spectacular and appear rapidly within a few days after vaccination,” corresponding author Philip Felgner, PhD, professor in residence and director of the Vaccine R&D Center at the University of California, Irvine told Contagion. “Only in our dreams we could have imagined a vaccine that that could be developed so quickly, works so well, can be manufactured at scale, distributed and administered to billions of people worldwide within months.”

Has to do with 'antibody levels" as a measure of protection. Getting the vaccine you would absolutely expect antibody titers to skyrocket.
Then they decrease with time but the memory of how to make them remains in the immune system. If your not exposed constantly to an antigen, then your antibody levels drop, that does not mean your protection, your immunity level is any worse as the immune system if it detects the antigen will again very quickly make the needed levels of antibodies against the antigen.

Think of it like a car engine, the vaccine makes the engine rev to maximum. But if there is no infection it is just for the moment a waste of effort.
The efficiency of the engine is you let it idle until it is needed to rev again, same with the immune system.

The reason you get booster shots for tetanus is the bacteria creates the toxin so fast the immune system can not get up to speed quick enough. I doubt covid is that fast of creating an overwhelming infection. If most infections were like Tetanus, no one would be alive, everyone would die of whatever infection happened.

 

[Scott Downey]

Do adults really need tetanus booster shots? - Harvard Health
And the research is now showing Tetanus booster shots are not needed or useful, the immune system can work quickly enough, so booster look like old wives tales, but the docs all say get your booster every 10 years. So people are treating covid like it is some kind of monster virus that needs booster every 6 months or yearly, when the immune system is much better than that.

What does the new study on tetanus boosters suggest?
A recent paper published in the journal Clinical Infectious Diseases suggested that tetanus and diphtheria booster vaccines are not necessary for adults who have completed their childhood vaccination series. This advice aligns with the current World Health Organization (WHO) recommendations. The researchers reviewed WHO data from 31 North American and European countries between 2001 and 2016, amounting to 11 billion person-years. (Person-years is a measurement that reflects the number of people in the study multiplied by years followed). After comparing the incidence of tetanus and diphtheria, they found no significant difference in disease rates in countries that require adults to receive booster shots compared with those that do not. Based on this, the authors suggest that childhood vaccination alone protects sufficiently against tetanus and diphtheria without booster shots.

 

[JonC]

Except you know why this is partially fake news? (second weblink)
“MRNA vaccine induced antibody levels are spectacular and appear rapidly within a few days after vaccination,” corresponding author Philip Felgner, PhD, professor in residence and director of the Vaccine R&D Center at the University of California, Irvine told Contagion. “Only in our dreams we could have imagined a vaccine that that could be developed so quickly, works so well, can be manufactured at scale, distributed and administered to billions of people worldwide within months.”

Has to do with 'antibody levels" as a measure of protection. Getting the vaccine you would absolutely expect antibody titers to skyrocket.
Then they decrease with time but the memory of how to make them remains in the immune system. If your not exposed constantly to an antigen, then your antibody levels drop, that does not mean your protection, your immunity level is any worse as the immune system if it detects the antigen will again very quickly make the needed levels of antibodies against the antigen.

Think of it like a car engine, the vaccine makes the engine rev to maximum. But if there is no infection it is just for the moment a waste of effort.
The efficiency of the engine is you let it idle until it is needed to rev again, same with the immune system.

The reason you get booster shots for tetanus is the bacteria creates the toxin so fast the immune system can not get up to speed quick enough. I doubt covid is that fast of creating an overwhelming infection. If most infections were like Tetanus, no one would be alive, everyone would die of whatever infection happened.

Of course, reading the article, T cells are often more important than antibodies.

The way it was explained to me is natural immunity is better insofar as fighting infection vaccines are better to prevent or minimize infection.

It would be better to give everybody covid, except too many would die in tge process.

But with varients, it is the actual infection, not the vaccine.

For example, natural immunization (not vaccines) cause varients with influenza.

 

[Reynolds]

Of course, reading the article, T cells are often more important than antibodies.

The way it was explained to me is natural immunity is better insofar as fighting infection vaccines are better to prevent or minimize infection.

It would be better to give everybody covid, except too many would die in tge process.

But with varients, it is the actual infection, not the vaccine.

For example, natural immunization (not vaccines) cause varients with influenza.

I saw a Dr today who said the particular T cells, known as Killer T cells, which are most important in fighting Covid, drop rapidly after MRNA vaccination.