This could go on forever, but my posts proving TULIP to be a failed theory are not for you, or Dave G, nor Ken.
They are for the others who are trying to learn the truth of predestination from God's Word.
I intend to show them the truth.
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NFL... The Calvinist View
- Thread starter rockytopva
- Start date
This could go on forever, but my posts proving TULIP to be a failed theory are not for you, or Dave G, nor Ken.
They are for the others who are trying to learn the truth of predestination from God's Word.
I intend to show them the truth.
...what a vivid imagination you have, 'Calvinist-slayer'; you've proven zilch other than your confidence in the flesh and your refusal to give credit to where credit is due:
1st Corinthians Chapter 1
29 | that no flesh should glory before God. |
30 | But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who was made unto us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption: |
That Psalm is God talking to the wicked, rebellious people of Israel. I hardly think it applies here--unless you think I'm wicked and rebellious.
If I get your drift, you think that God cannot "want" anything or "not want" anything. Please correct me if I'm wrong. But if that is your view, you are forgetting the doctrine of the "will of God." That phrase occurs in 23 verse of the NT, using two different Greek words for "will." The most common one for will is thelema (θέλημα). That usage is somewhat complicated, so I'll not go into it here. The other word is boule (βουλή), occurring 12 times in the NT, sometimes translated "counsel" and other times "will."
In Luke 7:30, the KJV has "But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel (boule) of God against themselves, being not baptized of him." The NKJV has "will of God" and the NASB has "God's purpose." So God does "want" certain things for us. A word study on thelema would bear this out. For example, I will just point out that in 1 John 2:7 "lust" and "will" are contrasted, pointing to a comparison of the two words as synonyms.
KenH
Well-Known Member
That Psalm is God talking to the wicked, rebellious people of Israel. I hardly think it applies here--unless you think I'm wicked and rebellious.
We all are in our fallen human nature:
Romans 3:9-18 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; as it is written,
There is none righteous, no, not one:
There is none that understandeth,
There is none that seeketh after God.
They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable;
There is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Their throat is an open sepulchre;
With their tongues they have used deceit;
The poison of asps is under their lips:
Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
Their feet are swift to shed blood:
Destruction and misery are in their ways:
And the way of peace have they not known:
There is no fear of God before their eyes.
KenH
Well-Known Member
The point is that there is a hideously false doctrine out there that states that God wants to save everybody, but unless they are some kind of universalist and really do think that everybody will be saved, then they have to admit, as I quoted one such person in my post #36 above, that God is a huge failure, as they claim God will not obtain what He wants to obtain. Thus, they make God out to be no different than man, as we also fail to obtain everything we want.
2 Peter 3:9
"The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."
You've got a dangerous nerve to make that statement, Ken!
I am on my 10 yard line, it is 4th and long, and Calvinism will not let me punt because it is predestined that I get tackled in my own end zone for a safety. The claim life only offers the illusion of opportunity is demonic nonsense. The claim we are to beg the lost to be reconciled to God when they have no opportunity to alter the predestined outcome of their life is incredibly silly.
KenH
Well-Known Member
2 Peter 1:1, the very first verse of the book, totally destroys your argument and breaks it into a million pieces:
"Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ."
Context, CONTEXT, CONTEXT!!!!
Peter is writing to Christians, those whom God chose before the world began and gave to His Son to be their Surety and to establish everlasting righteousness for God's elect, and whom the Holy Spirit has regenerated and granted the gift of faith in the finished work of Christ and the gift of repentance of the dead works they had been depending on.
The "us-ward" are identified in 2 Peter 1:1.
That's ridiculous, Ken.
Acts 17:30-31
"And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead."
Why is God commanding all men everywhere to repent when according to you He only desires to save an elect group?
KenH
Well-Known Member
If God is trying desperately to save everyone, as you teach, yet doing so in vain - if Christ paid the sin debt for everyone in a desperate attempt to save everyone, yet doing so in vain, as you teach - then there is no doubt that your hideously false idea of "God" is a tremendous failure, and no different than fallen man, as fallen man also desperately desires things that he does not achieve.
"Hideously false"???
Yep, it has started. This kind of statement is exactly why I have never posted on this particular forum. You won't answer what I wrote, but prefer to make attacks.
My best friend for 50 years is a 5 point Calvinist, but he is gracious and kind, and we truly love each other in the Lord. I don't see any Christian graciousness in your answer. This kind of rhetoric is exactly why some Calvinists drive people away from their doctrine. The Bible says to "adorn the doctrine of God our Saviour in all things" (Titus 2:10). You did not.
I'm outta here.
P.S. I had to add this. Jonathan Edwards and John Wesley were great friends until Edwards went on a trip to the US and returned to England as a Calvinist. He immediately tried to convince Wesley of his doctrine, and thus destroyed the friendship. Years later they were able to patch things up when Edwards learned to be gracious towards those wo disagree. But that's what doctrinaire Calvinism can do--destroy relationships when there is no need to do so.
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No Ken, you don't want to understand as you have been told countless times.
God made man a free moral agent to choose His own way.
Man does not control God's salvation that he can make God a failure, that also is ridiculous!
God has given man the ability to choose his own destiny by the choice to accept or reject Him
The alternative is everlasting separation from God.
KenH
Well-Known Member
"but now commandeth all men everywhere to repent; that is, he hath given orders, that the doctrine of repentance, as well as remission of sins, should be preached to all nations, to Gentiles as well as Jews; and that it becomes them to repent of their idolatries, and turn from their idols, and worship the one, only, living and true God: and though for many hundreds of years God had neglected them, and sent no messengers, nor messages to them, to acquaint them with his will, and to show them their follies and mistakes; yet now he had sent his apostles unto them, to lay before them their sins, and call them to repentance; and to stir them up to this, the apostle informs them of the future judgment in the following verse. Repentance being represented as a command, does not suppose it to be in the power of men, or contradict evangelical repentance, being the free grace gift of God, but only shows the need men stand in of it, and how necessary and requisite it is; and when it is said to be a command to all, this does not destroy its being a special blessing of the covenant of grace to some; but points out the sad condition that all men are in as sinners, and that without repentance they must perish: and indeed, all men are obliged to natural repentance for sin, though to all men the grace of evangelical repentance is not given."
- excerpt from John Gill's Bible commentary on Acts 17:30
God's elect have godly sorrow, not the sorrow of the world; those whom God reprobated before the world began have the sorrow of the world:
2 Corinthians 7:10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.
KenH
Well-Known Member
If it is the last play of the game, and a team needs a touchdown on that play, and fails to score a touchdown, you would say they failed, correct?
If God is trying to do something, and fails to accomplish it, to be consistent, you would say that God failed, correct?
LOL
KenH
Well-Known Member
Yes. Now I am not saying those who hold such a view are not sincere in doing so - I used to hold such a view myself before the Holy Spirit regenerated me and granted me the gift of faith in the finished work of Christ and the gift of repentance of the dead works I had been depending on. So I can definitely say that in my life before the Holy Spirit regenerated me, I held a hideously false view of God.
God can't fail, that is impossible.
Ken doesn't understand God's mercy and grace toward mankind, to you He just shuttles off to Hell all that He doesn't want.
KenH
Well-Known Member
Then you believe that everyone God tries to save will be saved?
I believe God gave man free will to choose his own way.
Just the way He gave it to Adam in the Garden.