No Choice

[steaver]

I want to start a new thread concerning something OldRegular said in another thread. Does man have any choice in the matter of salvation?

From OldRegular;

I am not sure what your OP is trying to establish. You really never say but apparently you are trying to prove that water baptism is essential to salvation. The only truth that is essential to salvation, given the death and subsequent resurrection of Jesus Christ, is the election to Salvation in Jesus Christ by God before the foundation of the world.

Jesus Christ tells us in John 6:37. All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

Only the elect, those given to Jesus Christ by the Father, will come to Him for Salvation.

Jesus Christ tells us in John 3:3. Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. Regeneration, being born again or born from above, is required for salvation.

We read in Ephesians 2:1-8 the manner in which God causes this to occur:

1. And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2. Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3. Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4. But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5. Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, [by grace ye are saved;]
6. And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7. That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

We see from the above passage that it is God who makes us alive while we are spiritually dead in sin and then He gives us the faith that we may believe in the work that He has done.

 

[steaver]

Here is what bothers me about this pov;

How can I view God as rich in mercy and love if I must view God as predetermining, without any input from the person He created, the eternal destiny of each person.

It would be like me saying to my two children; You I choose to torture for eternity and you I choose to love for eternity. WITHOUT any reason whatsoever to do so!

:jesus:

 

[OldRegular]

Here is what bothers me about this pov;

How can I view God as rich in mercy and love if I must view God as predetermining, without any input from the person He created, the eternal destiny of each person.

It would be like me saying to my two children; You I choose to torture for eternity and you I choose to love for eternity. WITHOUT any reason whatsoever to do so!

:jesus:

You can understand the mercy of God by recognizing that if it were not for election no one would be saved. Man of his own choice will not seek God, he will turn to evil.

 

[billwald]

Look at it this way: would any sane person reject the Gospel if it was explained to him in a way that he could understand it? Would God send a sane person to Hell if the Gospel had never been explained to him in a way that he could understand it? Would God send a crazy or feeble minded person to Hell?

So who would God send to Hell? Are there truly evil people in this world - much more evil than your regular Joe Six Pack? If so, would this truly evil person be happier in Heaven or Hell? Would he prefer to spend eternity singing hymns to Jesus or cursing God?

 

[BD17]

Here is what bothers me about this pov;

How can I view God as rich in mercy and love if I must view God as predetermining, without any input from the person He created, the eternal destiny of each person.

It would be like me saying to my two children; You I choose to torture for eternity and you I choose to love for eternity. WITHOUT any reason whatsoever to do so!

:jesus:

God did say that... to Jacob and Esau...the problem with your POV is that you are expecting God to act as you would. God is full of love and mercy it is throughout the Bible. You have to look outside the "God is only love and mercy" box to truly see and understand. God is not just love and mercy he is wrath and condemnation as well.

 

[BD17]

without any input from the person He created,

:jesus:

Who is the created to question the creator? (Romans 9) When, and where does it say God must confer with His creation before he acts?

 

[steaver]

You can understand the mercy of God by recognizing that if it were not for election no one would be saved. Man of his own choice will not seek God, he will turn to evil.

I fully understand "election" and it has nothing to do with choice or no choice. I understand the mercy of God through the cross ALONE. SO your "election" answer is flawed.

Man of his own choice will not seek God, this is true. However this gives you nothing. The scripture is clear that God seeks man, draws man to Jesus. Man cannot believe without God, but man is presented with a choice. Drawing a man to believe is not salvation. When the man chooses to receive the call, then he is chosen/elect/saved/born of God.

Thus, God has the preeminence in all things. Just because people reject God's offer does not mean God has not sought them. So your "seeking" answer is flawed.

 

[steaver]

Look at it this way: would any sane person reject the Gospel if it was explained to him in a way that he could understand it? Would God send a sane person to Hell if the Gospel had never been explained to him in a way that he could understand it? Would God send a crazy or feeble minded person to Hell?

So who would God send to Hell? Are there truly evil people in this world - much more evil than your regular Joe Six Pack? If so, would this truly evil person be happier in Heaven or Hell? Would he prefer to spend eternity singing hymns to Jesus or cursing God?

God sends those to hell who reject His offer of salvation. God even goes as far as to seek man with the Holy Spirit, drawing them to Jesus Christ.

Look at it this way: would any sane person reject the Gospel if it was explained to him in a way that he could understand it?

Happens every day throughout the world.

:jesus:

 

[steaver]

God did say that... to Jacob and Esau...the problem with your POV is that you are expecting God to act as you would. God is full of love and mercy it is throughout the Bible. You have to look outside the "God is only love and mercy" box to truly see and understand. God is not just love and mercy he is wrath and condemnation as well.

Actually I expect God to act far above the way I would. Even I would give a person a choice to follow me. Yet you believe it is my ways that are higher than God's ways. You believe I have more mercy and love than God.

:jesus:

 

[steaver]

Who is the created to question the creator? (Romans 9) When, and where does it say God must confer with His creation before he acts?

Sorry, I do not question my Creator. I am questioning my brothers in Christ.

Is it God's fault you do not understand Romans 9?

raying:

 

[billwald]

>God sends those to hell who reject His offer of salvation.

And those who never receive his offer?

 

[steaver]

>God sends those to hell who reject His offer of salvation.

And those who never receive his offer?

Does the scripture God gave to us answer this question?

If not, is it my place to tell you that I know what God will do with these people?

I know God's ways are higher than my ways and I am convinced that He will deal justly in all things. Creating a soul to live for eternity and condemning that soul to hell for committing sin, which that soul has no way of overcoming, is nowhere near the character of Love. Scripture says God is Love. Love gives Justice, Love is fair. Love offers Mercy.

Would you get married and say to your wife 'let's have some children, maybe a dozen. Now I know they will all be bad and do wrong, but I will correct them all and I will even let a few of them live so I may show them all my endless love and mercy. The one's I let live will be even more grateful when they see that I killed the others but spared them. This will really show them how much I love them because I could have killed them as well. They will really appreciate my mercy and love when they see how I kill some and save some'.

So you love God because He chose you to live? Doesn't bother you that He chose to kill your brothers or sisters or whoever else you may know?

It seems to me that if God was going to do all the choosing without giving any opportunity to the people to choose Him, He would have no purpose for allowing sin in the first place or providing a sacrifice for sin. If God did not want children who freely chose Him to be their God He could have just made Adam and Eve, not allowed sin, and lived happly ever after with His Creation of puppets.

I find it very hard to believe that I would give my children a choice of life and death but God wouldn't. Am I more merciful than God? Am I more loving than God? Am I more just than God?

Your POV makes absolutely no sense. You would create a person, cause that person to sin from birth, bring that person before your judgment hall and condemn that person to life in hell for committing the sin that you caused him to have in the first place. You call this Justice? You call this Mercy and Love?? I would not want a God as you believe Him to be! Praise God He is Truly Just, Merciful and Love.

:godisgood:

 

[Tom Butler]

Sorry, I do not question my Creator. I am questioning my brothers in Christ.

Is it God's fault you do not understand Romans 9?

raying:

It would be helpful to this discussion if you would give us your understanding of Romans 9.

 

[Tom Butler]

>God sends those to hell who reject His offer of salvation.

And those who never receive his offer?

Implicit in your question is whether God will condemn someone for a reason other than rejecting Christ's offer.

I think the answer is yes.

Otherwise, one must take the position that everyone, everywhere, has heard the gospel. And, in fact, some do take that position, holding that somehow God had revealed the gospel and revealed Jesus Christ in some mysterious way, thus all are accountable.

If that's the case, then let's bring all our missionaries home, since we don't need them to spread the good news of Jesus Christ. God has other ways.

But what if it's true that there have existed and do exist people who have never heard of Jesus? How can they be judged? Will God just cut them some slack?

The answer is found in Romans 2, where Paul says that those who are without the law are a law unto themselves. I take that to mean that everyone has developed some sort of moral code by which they live. The condemnation comes because they cannot even live up to their own moral code.

We who find ourselves blessed by having heard the gospel are in the same boat. If we could live up to the Law, we could get into heaven. If they could live up to their own moral code, so could they. But they can't, just as we can't perfectly obey the Law.

 

[Jim1999]

Perhaps it would be wise to dispense with the human equations and stick with the whole of scripture. Man is tainted with Adam's sin and is already condemned. Everyone commits sins. Some have been redeemed by God's grace and the remainder have been passed by to their own condemnation.

It is not our responsibility to know whom God has called unto salvation, but simply to relate the gospel message to all. If man fails to hear the gospel it is not God's fault, but ours. It is, however, not the failure of man to reach man that they are condemned to hell. That sentence was already given in Adam and all his posterity. For some reason, in eternity past, God elected some to saving grace.

I find it unfathomable that petty man should be able to tell a sovereign God what He can and cannot do.

Further, He is who He is, a holy and just God. He cannot do anything that violates His own nature. He cannot tolerate the presence of sin, and hence He has made the elect perfect in Jesus Christ. Not that we are perfect now, but that we will be perfect in His presence. All sins will be cleansed. Heaven will be pure.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[BD17]

Here is what bothers me about this pov;

How can I view God as rich in mercy and love if I must view God as predetermining, without any input from the person He created, the eternal destiny of each person.

It would be like me saying to my two children; You I choose to torture for eternity and you I choose to love for eternity. WITHOUT any reason whatsoever to do so!

:jesus:

You question Him here.

And I fully and completly understand Romans 9.

 

[Tom Butler]

You question Him here.

And I fully and completly understand Romans 9.

I'm not asking if you understand Romans 9. I'm asking what that understanding is.

I think I understand it, too, but I suspect that our understandings differ.

 

[OldRegular]

I fully understand "election" and it has nothing to do with choice or no choice. I understand the mercy of God through the cross ALONE. SO your "election" answer is flawed.

Man of his own choice will not seek God, this is true. However this gives you nothing. The scripture is clear that God seeks man, draws man to Jesus. Man cannot believe without God, but man is presented with a choice. Drawing a man to believe is not salvation. When the man chooses to receive the call, then he is chosen/elect/saved/born of God.

Thus, God has the preeminence in all things. Just because people reject God's offer does not mean God has not sought them. So your "seeking" answer is flawed.

Before you state my election answer is flawed I suggest that you read Ephesians Chapters 1 and 2; John chapter 6,and Romans chapter 8 or better yet just study the Bible!

 

[OldRegular]

Perhaps it would be wise to dispense with the human equations and stick with the whole of scripture. Man is tainted with Adam's sin and is already condemned. Everyone commits sins. Some have been redeemed by God's grace and the remainder have been passed by to their own condemnation.

It is not our responsibility to know whom God has called unto salvation, but simply to relate the gospel message to all. If man fails to hear the gospel it is not God's fault, but ours. It is, however, not the failure of man to reach man that they are condemned to hell. That sentence was already given in Adam and all his posterity. For some reason, in eternity past, God elected some to saving grace.

I find it unfathomable that petty man should be able to tell a sovereign God what He can and cannot do.

Further, He is who He is, a holy and just God. He cannot do anything that violates His own nature. He cannot tolerate the presence of sin, and hence He has made the elect perfect in Jesus Christ. Not that we are perfect now, but that we will be perfect in His presence. All sins will be cleansed. Heaven will be pure.

Cheers,

Jim

Jim

A superb post, but then you generally say more in one sentence than some of us could say in a long paragraph.:thumbs:

 

[steaver]

It is not our responsibility to know whom God has called unto salvation, but simply to relate the gospel message to all. If man fails to hear the gospel it is not God's fault, but ours. It is, however, not the failure of man to reach man that they are condemned to hell. That sentence was already given in Adam and all his posterity. For some reason, in eternity past, God elected some to saving grace.

For some reason? God gave His Son because God so loved the world.

I find it unfathomable that petty man should be able to tell a sovereign God what He can and cannot do.

Amen Jim!

Further, He is who He is, a holy and just God. He cannot do anything that violates His own nature. He cannot tolerate the presence of sin, and hence He has made the elect perfect in Jesus Christ. Not that we are perfect now, but that we will be perfect in His presence. All sins will be cleansed. Heaven will be pure.

Cheers,

Jim

Amen! :jesus: