No Choice

[steaver]

You question Him here.

And I fully and completly understand Romans 9.

Not at all. I questioned the erronious pov.

 

[steaver]

Before you state my election answer is flawed I suggest that you read Ephesians Chapters 1 and 2; John chapter 6,and Romans chapter 8 or better yet just study the Bible!

:applause:

Good one brother! That one really put me in my place :tongue3:

 

[billwald]

In other words, Justice is more important to God than love. It isn't correct that God's attributes have some sort of equality.

 

[OldRegular]

I fully understand "election" and it has nothing to do with choice or no choice. I understand the mercy of God through the cross ALONE. SO your "election" answer is flawed.

Man of his own choice will not seek God, this is true. However this gives you nothing. The scripture is clear that God seeks man, draws man to Jesus. Man cannot believe without God, but man is presented with a choice. Drawing a man to believe is not salvation. When the man chooses to receive the call, then he is chosen/elect/saved/born of God.

Thus, God has the preeminence in all things. Just because people reject God's offer does not mean God has not sought them. So your "seeking" answer is flawed.

Scripture teaches that God has elected some to salvation. If you chose to reject that truth you are free to do so. In doing so you make salvation the purview of man, not God.

 

[steaver]

Scripture teaches that God has elected some to salvation. If you chose to reject that truth you are free to do so. In doing so you make salvation the purview of man, not God.

I reject your statement which is given out of biblical context. If you choose to reject that truth you are free to do so. In doing so you make salvation the purview of man's pov, not God's word.

Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, (1Pt 1:2)

God does not learn anything.


:jesus:

 

[OldRegular]

Post by OldRegular
Scripture teaches that God has elected some to salvation. If you chose to reject that truth you are free to do so. In doing so you make salvation the purview of man, not God.

Response by steaver
I reject your statement which is given out of biblical context. If you choose to reject that truth you are free to do so. In doing so you make salvation the purview of man's pov, not God's word.

Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, (1Pt 1:2)

God does not learn anything.

My statements on election are not taken out of context. In fact the Scripture as a whole teach that Salvation is solely the work of God. One of the clearest passages that teach that certain were chosen to salvation in Jesus Christ is found in the letter to the church at Ephesus:

Ephesians 1:1-7
1. Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:
2. Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
3. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4. According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5. Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6. To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
7. In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

Put simply; to deny that God chose certain to salvation before the foundation of the world is to deny Scripture.

 

[billwald]

>Put simply; to deny that God chose certain to salvation before the foundation of the world is to deny Scripture.

True, but to limit God's list of the elect (except for those specifically condemned by scripture e.g. Judas E) is also to deny scripture.

 

[OldRegular]

When the man chooses to receive the call, then he is chosen/elect/saved/born of God.

So man is the author of his own salvation contrary to Scripture which states:

Hebrews 12:1,2
1. Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
2. Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

 

[OldRegular]

Post by billwald
True, but to limit God's list of the elect (except for those specifically condemned by scripture e.g. Judas E) is also to deny scripture.So man is the author of his own salvation contrary to Scripture which states:

I don't limit the list of the elect God does! Don't ask me why. Ask Him when you see Him.

 

[Marcia]

God chooses those for salvation.

Man is also told he must choose to believe.

Both are true; that is why this debate will never be solved on earth. My pastor, who strongly emphasizes God's sovereignty and election, says this seeming contradiction is called (I've forgotten the term although it sounded like antonym but it wasn't and it wasn't paradox) ___. It's 2 concepts seemingly opposed to each other but both are true. Our finite minds cannot grasp it.

 

[steaver]

OldRegular; In fact the Scripture as a whole teach that Salvation is solely the work of God.

Amen! I agree 100%

OldRegular;

One of the clearest passages that teach that certain were chosen to salvation in Jesus Christ is found in the letter to the church at Ephesus:

Ephesians 1:1-7
1. Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:
2. Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
3. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4. According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5. Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6. To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
7. In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

Put simply; to deny that God chose certain to salvation before the foundation of the world is to deny Scripture.

I do not deny Eph 1 nor do I deny your "put simply". However, I do understand "according to the foreknowledge of God" and I do understand God's salvation invitation given to whosoever will come, let him come.

And before you comment on the "whosoever will", I already understand how you must tweek it to fit your pov and I reject your tweeking.

Put simply, if your pov is correct, then God sure went to alot of pain and suffering just to have a bunch of puppets on a string. He could have skipped all of the devil, sin and sacrifice stuff. I fear God because of His Justice and Mercy. And that is not a "I am scared" fear, it is a reverence fear.

:jesus:

 

[steaver]

I don't limit the list of the elect God does! Don't ask me why. Ask Him when you see Him.

I know why God has a limit on it, God has foreknowledge as to whom so ever will come. WE don't.

:godisgood:

 

[Amy.G]

God chooses those for salvation.

Man is also told he must choose to believe.

Both are true; that is why this debate will never be solved on earth. My pastor, who strongly emphasizes God's sovereignty and election, says this seeming contradiction is called (I've forgotten the term although it sounded like antonym but it wasn't and it wasn't paradox) ___. It's 2 concepts seemingly opposed to each other but both are true. Our finite minds cannot grasp it.

Juxtaposition?

 

[Marcia]

Juxtaposition?

No, it was a word that began with an "a." I need to ask him what it was. "Juxtaposition" just means side by side. But thanks.

 

[OldRegular]

steaver

Regardless of what you say you are still making salvation the work of man, not God.

 

[OldRegular]

God chooses those for salvation.

Man is also told he must choose to believe.

Both are true; that is why this debate will never be solved on earth. My pastor, who strongly emphasizes God's sovereignty and election, says this seeming contradiction is called (I've forgotten the term although it sounded like antonym but it wasn't and it wasn't paradox) ___. It's 2 concepts seemingly opposed to each other but both are true. Our finite minds cannot grasp it.

The word could be anomaly!

You say man must also choose to believe. Why do some believe while others do not?

 

[Jim1999]

If one develops their theology based on the absolute sovereignty of God, he had no problem allowing a relative choice under the permissive will of God, and no contradiction in the personage of God.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[Marcia]

The word could be anomaly!

Okay, thanks.

You say man must also choose to believe. Why do some believe while others do not?

That's the $64,000 question to which people have different answers. But we know people do reject Christ. For one thing, I clearly recall rejecting the real Christ in high school and later on. Also, Jesus says in Matthew when lamenting over Jerusalem that he would have gathered them like a mother hen gathers her chicks but they would not come (paraphrasing from memory).

I also like Jim' comments above.

 

[OldRegular]

Okay, thanks.



That's the $64,000 question to which people have different answers. But we know people do reject Christ. For one thing, I clearly recall rejecting the real Christ in high school and later on. Also, Jesus says in Matthew when lamenting over Jerusalem that he would have gathered them like a mother hen gathers her chicks but they would not come (paraphrasing from memory).

I also like Jim' comments above.

Jim's comments are always thoughtful and thought provoking. However, I like the comments of John Dagg [[/i]Manual of Theology[/i],page 322] better.

“Every proposed method of salvation that leaves the issue dependent on human volition is defective. It has always been found that men will not come to Christ for life. The Gospel is preached to every creature; but all, with one consent, ask to be excused. The will of man must be changed; and this change the will cannot itself effect. Divine grace must here interpose. Unless God works in the sinner to will and to do, salvation is impossible.”

 

[steaver]

OldRegular;
Regardless of what you say you are still making salvation the work of man, not God.

Let's say you are up to your neck in quicksand brother. You imminent death is evident, another minute or two and you will die.

Now I come along and see your situation. You are stuck and sinking. If I do not act you will be dead.

But maybe you really don't care if you die. I will ask you first before I save you. Maybe you are enjoying your situation.

Brother, I see you are in a pickle, your death is imminent, would you like me to save you?

Possible answers;
a) get away from me, I'm doing just fine! (denial)
b) yes, please! (recognition that I cannot save myself and I want to live)

Say your answer is yes. I take my big hook and grab you around the arm pits and pluck you right out, bam! Your sitting on soild ground! If I pull you out of the quicksand brother, I saved you! ALL ME. You had nothing to do with it, but I gave you a choice and you merely recognized your imminent death and chose the offer of salvation. You couldn't save yourself one iota!

You played zero part in your salvation brother. All you did was accept God's offer TO DO THE SAVING.

The Father draws. The Spirit convicts. You choose. Jesus saves!


:jesus: