No Choice

[steaver]

“Every proposed method of salvation that leaves the issue dependent on human volition is defective. It has always been found that men will not come to Christ for life. The Gospel is preached to every creature; but all, with one consent, ask to be excused. The will of man must be changed; and this change the will cannot itself effect. Divine grace must here interpose. Unless God works in the sinner to will and to do, salvation is impossible.”

Of course you like quotes from your own camp. So what if John Dagg believes the way you do? Who is he? An apostle?

There is one line of truth in his statement, and only one. "It has always been found that men will not come to Christ for life." This is why God must seek man. The Father draws, the Spirit convicts, man must choose, Jesus saves!

:jesus:

 

[OldRegular]

There is one line of truth in his statement, and only one. "It has always been found that men will not come to Christ for life." This is why God must seek man. The Father draws, the Spirit convicts, man must choose, Jesus saves!

:jesus:

Then answer the question: Why do some choose salvation and others reject salvation?

 

[steaver]

OldRegular; Then answer the question: Why do some choose salvation and others reject salvation?

Why did Adam and Eve choose death? Did God also cause them to choose death like you believe God causes the dead to choose life today?

:jesus:

 

[OldRegular]

Why did Adam and Eve choose death? Did God also cause them to choose death like you believe God causes the dead to choose life today?

:jesus:

Eve yielded to temptation. Adam chose death. Neither chose life instead they hid from God.

You appear to be totally ignorant of what I have said on this post. I have never said that God caused the dead to choose life. That is the point of the doctrine of election. Those who are spiritually dead cannot choose life. God must make those who are spiritually dead spiritually alive and then give them the gift of faith to believe. That truth is clearly taught in Ephesians 2:1-8 except for those who refuse to see.

1. And you were dead in your trespasses and sins,
2. in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.
3. Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.
4. But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
5. even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
6. and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places, in Christ Jesus,
7. in order that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
8. For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

Please read the passage, particularly verses 4 and 5. It states that when we were dead in our transgressions God made us alive. There is absolutely no action indicated on man's part. In fact being spiritually dead he can do nothing. Then if you will read verse 8 you will see that God gives those He has made spiritually alive the gift of faith.

 

[Allan]

Eve yielded to temptation. Adam chose death. Neither chose life instead they hid from God.

You appear to be totally ignorant of what I have said on this post. I have never said that God caused the dead to choose life. That is the point of the doctrine of election. Those who are spiritually dead cannot choose life. God must make those who are spiritually dead spiritually alive and then give them the gift of faith to believe. That truth is clearly taught in Ephesians 2:1-8 except for those who refuse to see.

1. And you were dead in your trespasses and sins,
2. in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.
3. Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.
4. But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
5. even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
6. and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places, in Christ Jesus,
7. in order that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
8. For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

Please read the passage, particularly verses 4 and 5. It states that when we were dead in our transgressions God made us alive. There is absolutely no action indicated on man's part. In fact being spiritually dead he can do nothing. Then if you will read verse 8 you will see that God gives those He has made spiritually alive the gift of faith.

That verse is speaking about the 'act of savlation' which is regeneration. It even says so - by grace you have been saved!

Nothing in the above even infrenences that God must give man faith, that is a theological presupposition added into THIS text.

 

[steaver]

OldRegular;
Eve yielded to temptation. Adam chose death. Neither chose life instead they hid from God.

Basically what I said. You did not answer the "why".

Adam and Eve were spiritually alive and did not choose life over death. So your argument of being spiritually dead negating choice fails. Even in a spiritually alive state they had choice and chose death.

You asked me before why anyone would reject the gospel, which is a presentation of life over death, as if that would be totally unheard of. Adam chose death, yet you still don't see the irony in your pov.

God created mankind giving them a choice, this is clear. I suspect it is because God wanted true loving followers instead of puppets. You see us as puppets. I do not.

OldRegular;
You appear to be totally ignorant of what I have said on this post. I have never said that God caused the dead to choose life. That is the point of the doctrine of election. Those who are spiritually dead cannot choose life. God must make those who are spiritually dead spiritually alive and then give them the gift of faith to believe. That truth is clearly taught in Ephesians 2:1-8 except for those who refuse to see.

You do say God gives us no choice. Yet we know God gave Adam and Eve a choice.

Ehpesians 2 is a favorite passage of mine. Sorry, it does not negate the choice that is taught throughout scripture.

:jesus:

 

[BD17]

That verse is speaking about the 'act of savlation' which is regeneration. It even says so - by grace you have been saved!

Nothing in the above even infrenences that God must give man faith, that is a theological presupposition added into THIS text.

Uh read verse 8. through faith you have been saved; and that not of yourselves it is the GIFT of God.

 

[Marcia]

Jim's comments are always thoughtful and thought provoking. However, I like the comments of John Dagg [[/i]Manual of Theology[/i],page 322] better.

“Every proposed method of salvation that leaves the issue dependent on human volition is defective. It has always been found that men will not come to Christ for life. The Gospel is preached to every creature; but all, with one consent, ask to be excused. The will of man must be changed; and this change the will cannot itself effect. Divine grace must here interpose. Unless God works in the sinner to will and to do, salvation is impossible.”

But this is a person's view, so I don't take it as scripture.

God does tell people to believe. Jesus said some people rejected the call. It is God who saves but man is still accountable. Both are true. I don't think the bible clearly states either way; and yet statements in the Bible lead to both views.

Btw, it's not anomaly. That just means a deviation from the norm. It's a word that has to do with opposites being true.
I know paradox means that, but I'm pretty sure the word started with an "a." I'll have to ask.

 

[OldRegular]

That verse is speaking about the 'act of savlation' which is regeneration. It even says so - by grace you have been saved!

Nothing in the above even infrenences that God must give man faith, that is a theological presupposition added into THIS text.

Allan

You are incorrect as usual. This Scripture teaches, to all but those who fail to see, that God gives spiritual life to those who are spiritually dead and then gives the gift of faith through man is enabled to respond to the work of God in regeneration.

 

[OldRegular]

Adam and Eve were spiritually alive and did not choose life over death. So your argument of being spiritually dead negating choice fails. Even in a spiritually alive state they had choice and chose death.

So you see no difference in being spiritually alive and being spiritually dead. Fortunately Scripture does:

1Corinthians 2:14. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

The natural man is the man who is spiritually dead.

 

[OldRegular]

Originally Posted by OldRegular
Jim's comments are always thoughtful and thought provoking. However, I like the comments of John Dagg [[/i]Manual of Theology[/i],page 322] better.

“Every proposed method of salvation that leaves the issue dependent on human volition is defective. It has always been found that men will not come to Christ for life. The Gospel is preached to every creature; but all, with one consent, ask to be excused. The will of man must be changed; and this change the will cannot itself effect. Divine grace must here interpose. Unless God works in the sinner to will and to do, salvation is impossible.”

Response by Marcia
But this is a person's view, so I don't take it as scripture.

I don't take it as Scripture but I believe it reflects the teaching of Scripture.

Response by Marcia
God does tell people to believe. Jesus said some people rejected the call. It is God who saves but man is still accountable. Both are true. I don't think the bible clearly states either way; and yet statements in the Bible lead to both views.

There are Scripture that seem to indicate that salvation is the purview of man.However Scripture teaches the following about those who are spiritually dead, the unsaved man:

1Corinthians 2:14. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.


Even so I believe that man is held accountable.

 

[Victorious]

I fully understand "election" and it has nothing to do with choice or no choice. I understand the mercy of God through the cross ALONE. SO your "election" answer is flawed.

Man of his own choice will not seek God, this is true. However this gives you nothing. The scripture is clear that God seeks man, draws man to Jesus. Man cannot believe without God, but man is presented with a choice. Drawing a man to believe is not salvation. When the man chooses to receive the call, then he is chosen/elect/saved/born of God. From the foundation of the world? So it is up to men to secure their own salvation by receiving the call?

Thus, God has the preeminence in all things. Just because people reject God's offer does not mean God has not sought them. So your "seeking" answer is flawed.

So did God also seek the unbelieving Jews in the New Testament? (Romans 11) Have all men had the same opportunity to reject Him?

 

[steaver]

So did God also seek the unbelieving Jews in the New Testament? (Romans 11)

Rom 11:14If by any means I may provoke to emulation [them which are] my flesh, and might save some of them.

Have all men had the same opportunity to reject Him?

We know that not all people get a chance to reject Jesus in their natural lifespan here on earth. We do know that those who do get a chance and reject Jesus will be condemned to hell.

:jesus:

 

[Victorious]

Rom 11:14If by any means I may provoke to emulation [them which are] my flesh, and might save some of them.



We know that not all people get a chance to reject Jesus in their natural lifespan here on earth. We do know that those who do get a chance and reject Jesus will be condemned to hell.

:jesus:

And yet, we know that "...there salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven which has been given among men by which we must be saved." (Acts 4:12 EMTV)

So am I correct in assuming that you believe that those who never hear the name of Christ will be saved and enter heaven? If so, what would be the advantage of believing the gospel?

 

[steaver]

So am I correct in assuming that you believe that those who never hear the name of Christ will be saved and enter heaven? If so, what would be the advantage of believing the gospel?

No, i do not believe those who never hear automatically get saved. And i do not believe those who never hear automatically do not get saved.

I know one thing as fact from the scriptures. Those who hear and reject will not be saved. Those who accept will be saved.

Act 4:12Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

If we go beyond what is written we enter into the realm of speculation. What about all those aborted babies? Even those who are miscarried or still born? What about the mentally handicapped?

Some will take the pov that God gives grace to the babies and the mentally challenged despite them never hearing the gospel praeched by men, but does not give grace to those adults who we failed to reach, even blaming us for their not having a chance to hear.

I do not put God in any box and I trust God to be Just. All who do enter must enter through Jesus Christ, to reject Jesus Christ is to be condemned to hell. There are not many ways to heaven, Jesus only, but I do not know how God has chosen to deal with babies and such, do they have a chance to hear in the spirit world? As far as I know, scripture only reveals to us how He deals with those who hear and understand His gospel on earth.

:jesus:

 

[Victorious]

No, i do not believe those who never hear automatically get saved. And i do not believe those who never hear automatically do not get saved.

I know one thing as fact from the scriptures. Those who hear and reject will not be saved. Those who accept will be saved.

Act 4:12Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

If we go beyond what is written we enter into the realm of speculation. What about all those aborted babies? Even those who are miscarried or still born? What about the mentally handicapped?

Some will take the pov that God gives grace to the babies and the mentally challenged despite them never hearing the gospel praeched by men, but does not give grace to those adults who we failed to reach, even blaming us for their not having a chance to hear.

I do not put God in any box and I trust God to be Just. All who do enter must enter through Jesus Christ, to reject Jesus Christ is to be condemned to hell. There are not many ways to heaven, Jesus only, but I do not know how God has chosen to deal with babies and such, do they have a chance to hear in the spirit world? As far as I know, scripture only reveals to us how He deals with those who hear and understand His gospel on earth.

:jesus:

I do take the position of an age of accountability and God's grace through Jesus Christ for those who are disabled (you must enter the Kingdom as a child), but I also believe that those whose names have been written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world will be saved. God is sovereign and all whom the Father draws will come to Him.

I do respect your position of not knowing. There are many things we have yet to discover in Christ, but I cannot agree that there is any other way of salvation but through the gospel of Jesus Christ.

 

[Victorious]

Perhaps it would be wise to dispense with the human equations and stick with the whole of scripture. Man is tainted with Adam's sin and is already condemned. Everyone commits sins. Some have been redeemed by God's grace and the remainder have been passed by to their own condemnation.

It is not our responsibility to know whom God has called unto salvation, but simply to relate the gospel message to all. If man fails to hear the gospel it is not God's fault, but ours. It is, however, not the failure of man to reach man that they are condemned to hell. That sentence was already given in Adam and all his posterity. For some reason, in eternity past, God elected some to saving grace.

I find it unfathomable that petty man should be able to tell a sovereign God what He can and cannot do.

Further, He is who He is, a holy and just God. He cannot do anything that violates His own nature. He cannot tolerate the presence of sin, and hence He has made the elect perfect in Jesus Christ. Not that we are perfect now, but that we will be perfect in His presence. All sins will be cleansed. Heaven will be pure.

Cheers,

Jim

Awesome and right on.

 

[Victorious]

I reject your statement which is given out of biblical context. If you choose to reject that truth you are free to do so. In doing so you make salvation the purview of man's pov, not God's word.

Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, (1Pt 1:2)

God does not learn anything.


:jesus:

Yes, elect according to the foreknowledge of God. Whom He foreknew... What does that mean to you? It does not mean that God looked ahead and saw what we would do and then chose us based upon our choice of Him. Our salvation is not dependent upon our own righteousness. That would make man responsible for saving himself!

Foreknowledge simply means God knew His elect from the foundation of the world because He created them for glory in Jesus Christ.

 

[Victorious]

Rom 11:14If by any means I may provoke to emulation [them which are] my flesh, and might save some of them.



We know that not all people get a chance to reject Jesus in their natural lifespan here on earth. We do know that those who do get a chance and reject Jesus will be condemned to hell.

:jesus:

But what we do know is that "It is appointed unto man to die once, then the judgement." Hebrews 9:27

 

[steaver]

I do take the position of an age of accountability

Why? What scripture causes you to believe this? I believe we are born sinners and thus need a Saviour from birth, even from conception.

God is sovereign and all whom the Father draws will come to Him.

Jesus said ALL men would be drawn. He said MANY are CALLED but FEW CHOSEN.

but I cannot agree that there is any other way of salvation but through the gospel of Jesus Christ.

I believe I siad as much. No one comes to the Father except through Jesus Christ. Will all hear the gospel in some way other than through a preacher? I don't know, I heard of testimonies of Jesus Himself or angels of God appearing to men in remote countries of the world. Is it true? Not sure I want to be the one quenching the Holy Spirit.

I gotta go, I will get back to the foreknowledge question....

:jesus: