No condemnation in Christ Jesus !

[Dr. Walter]

You are so blinded by your false doctrine that you cannot use common sense. Again, I have never denied that all these things are true in eternity past as long as you confine them to the predetermined CONCEPTIONAL purpose of God but none of these things are true in eternity past in regard to ACTUAL existence.

Romans 8:28 opens the section of Romans 8:28-30 with the words "according to God's purpose" and Romans 8:29-30 contain every aspect of our salvation including our glorification but only a person who has thrown common sense out the window is going to suggest that Paul is teaching that we actually existed and was ACTUALLY glorified before the world began. Hence, the same is true with every other aspect listed in Romans 8:29-30. Paul is merely declaring that the CONCEPTIONAL purpose of God concerning "them" or "the elect" was predetermined before the world began and it was determined "in Christ" or in the person of Christ as the one representing the elect. We were not actually existing "in Christ" in some kind of spiritual union with Christ but we were conceptionally purposed to be saved according to God's purpose "in Christ" or the design for Christ to be our SUBSTITUTE standing "in" our place and we standing "in" His place.

Sure Christ was made our Surety before the world began. Sure Christ was determined by God to be our Substitute before the world began. Sure we were glorified, justified, sanctified, called, redeemed, reconciled before the world began. But not one of these things ACTUALLY and REALISTICALLY occurred before the world began but only were PREDETERMINED CONCEPTIONALLY by God before the world began and that predetermined concept is called God's "purpose" and "plan."

Do you understand the difference between a blue print of a house and the house itself? The blue print of the house PRECEDES the house and contains every aspect of the house CONCEPTIONALLY but not realistically or actually.

dw:



It does not have to. When was Christ made a Surety for God's Elect ? It was at the Everlasting Covenant. When did that occur ? From Everlasting. God in that Covenant Purposed not to Charge the sins of the Elect unto them, but unto their Surety. Thats how God was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself, not counting their trespasses against them.

2 Cor 5:19

19To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

 

[savedbymercy]

But of Him are ye in Christ Jesus !

Paul writing to the Corinthian Church these words 1 Cor 1:30-31

30But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

31That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

God the Father put us in Christ Jesus, if we be in Him at all, by it being God's doing, it was done from everlasting to everlasting !

Those who are in Christ, are so by the Sovereign Grace of God the Father Eph 1:3-4

3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

4According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

6To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

Yes, first and foremost The Father puts us in Him by Sovereign Election before the world began. In Him we were and have been preserved and blessed from everlasting even before being called in time ! Jude 1:1

1Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called:

When we are called, that secret eternal union is made manifest in time, when God the Holy Spirit gives us life and faith in Christ by the Operation of His Grace !

One's being in Christ is all the work of God, yes even our conversion, our saving union with Christ is not the consequence of ones actions, it was not because we were wiser, or better, or made a wiser choice than others, which is what most think today. If we are in Christ, it is because God put us in Christ, for Salvation [ experientially] is of the LORD. It is the purpose of God to make this evident and all men to concede to it. It shall be seen[At the Judgment] that God has apportioned His Saving Grace in such a means that men will see with regards to others, and to confess with concern to themselves, that Salvation, being in Christ is His work alone ! So that it is as it is written:

" He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord"

 

[savedbymercy]

If we are in Christ Jesus, we were Chosen in Him before the foundation pf the world Eph 1:4

4According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:


And it is also written that Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever Heb 13:8


8Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

Now lets look at Eph 1:19-23

19And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,

20Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,

21Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:

22And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,

23Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

The Church is His Body ! How long has that been ? Well How Long has Christ been the Head of the Body, the Church ? Col 1:14-19

14In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

15Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

17And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

18And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

19For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

Since the beginning ? John 1:1,4

1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

4In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

Now if these things be True, and there has has ever been a period of time when the Church was not in Him and any of it's members, then there has been a period of time when His Body was not full, which means there was a Head without a Body.

That Jesus Christ existed before Creation is seen in Paul's writings Eph 3:9

9And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

Was the Church His Body then ? If not, He was a bodiless Head, which I cannot conceive.

 

[Dr. Walter]

If we are in Christ Jesus, we were Chosen in Him before the foundation pf the world Eph 1:4

4According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:


And it is also written that Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever Heb 13:8


8Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

Now lets look at Eph 1:19-23

19And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,

20Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,

21Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:

22And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,

23Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

The Church is His Body ! How long has that been ? Well How Long has Christ been the Head of the Body, the Church ? Col 1:14-19

14In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

15Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

17And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

18And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

19For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

Since the beginning ? John 1:1,4

1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

4In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

Now if these things be True, and there has has ever been a period of time when the Church was not in Him and any of it's members, then there has been a period of time when His Body was not full, which means there was a Head without a Body.

That Jesus Christ existed before Creation is seen in Paul's writings Eph 3:9

9And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

Was the Church His Body then ? If not, He was a bodiless Head, which I cannot conceive.

Not one verse above teaches your heresy. Your heresy is forced upon the scriptures by a rationale that is blind to its obvious consequences. We are not God and spiritual union with the Son of God previous to creation makes us equally God just as physical union with Adam makes us equally human.

The metaphors of "head" and "body" are NEVER used in scripture to teach or to convey any kind of spiritual union but are consistently used to teach unity due to positions of authority and submission. This is exactly how these metaphors are used between a husband and wife and exactly how they are used between Christ and the local congregation.

 

[savedbymercy]

dw

Not one verse above teaches your heresy.

I can only present the Truth, cannot give you a capacity to receive it..

 

[Dr. Walter]

dw



I can only present the Truth, cannot give you a capacity to receive it..

This is all you can do when YOU CANNOT ANSWER the objections or deal with the evidence placed before you!!

Not one single verse you present above teaches that God the Son was ACTUALLY and REALISTICALLY seminally united or in spiritual union with the elect. Every single solitary text presented harmonizes perfectly with explicit texts that teach such was only the case by DESIGN/PURPOSE/INTENT/PLAN/ in the MIND of God and nothing more.

 

[savedbymercy]

As in Adam, so in Christ !

1 Cor 15:49

49And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

It was God's decision that we would be born of Adam [Flesh] and that we would be born of the Spirit ! It is the Spirit to begin that heavenly image 2 Cor 3:18

But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

Now if that Physical Life which was given the Elect in Adam could be distinctly identified and by it be involved in the condemnation of Adam's Transgression Rom 5:18

Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto

and this over 6000 yrs ago before being born in the flesh, is it therefore unreasonable that in Christ, the Antitype, their Spiritual and Eternal Life, which was with the Father and was manifested [ 1 Jn 1:2] and was given to us in God's only begotten Son , according to the record borne by the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost [ 1 Jn 5:7,11] should so identify us in Christ, that it is said that we were Chosen in Him before the foundation of the world Eph 1:4

4According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

There is no doubt about it, if the elect are given physical life, this is proof that they were in Adam before that life was manifested, and if the elect are now enjoying spiritual and eternal life, this is proof that they were in Christ before the foundation, and consequently never could have been condemned, since scripture states Rom 8:1

1There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus

 

[Dr. Walter]

As in Adam, so in Christ !

1 Cor 15:49

49And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.


It was God's decision that we would be born of Adam [Flesh] and that we would be born of the Spirit ! It is the Spirit to begin that heavenly image 2 Cor 3:18

But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

Now if that Physical Life which was given the Elect in Adam could be distinctly identified and by it be involved in the condemnation of Adam's Transgression Rom 5:18

Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto

and this over 6000 yrs ago before being born in the flesh, is it therefore unreasonable that in Christ, the Antitype, their Spiritual and Eternal Life, which was with the Father and was manifested [ 1 Jn 1:2] and was given to us in God's only begotten Son , according to the record borne by the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost [ 1 Jn 5:7,11] should so identify us in Christ, that it is said that we were Chosen in Him before the foundation of the world Eph 1:4

4According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

There is no doubt about it, if the elect are given physical life, this is proof that they were in Adam before that life was manifested, and if the elect are now enjoying spiritual and eternal life, this is proof that they were in Christ before the foundation, and consequently never could have been condemned, since scripture states Rom 8:1

1There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus

Your logic is silly! You ASSUME that previous to creation we were already in actual real spiritual union with God the Son based on the logic that it was not until CREATION of Adam that we were in actual physical union with Adam.

Hence, based upon a POST-creation union analogy you assume a PRE-creation union - Silly! Especially silly when Ephesians 2:10 dates our union with CREATION in Christ at New birth.

Your whole position is not based upon scripture but upon your own silly logic.

Silly, because there are several clear and explicit texts that fully explain the type of union with Christ before the world began and NONE of them explain it actual or real but only CONTEMPLATED union found in PURPOSE, PLAN and thus only in the MIND of God without any objective existence whatsoever.

Not just silly, but heretical, because your position denies the Triune nature of God and teaches polytheism. Look at your own silly analogy! Those IN Adam were EQUAL IN NATURE to Adam, hence, according to your own line of logic those IN God the Son must be EQUAL IN NATURE to God the Son! That is heresy as none but the Father and the Holy Spirit were actually and really in Spiritual UNION with God the Son. You are teaching outright heresy and denying the Trinune nature of God.

We were in spiritual union with Christ in eternity past in the very same sense we were glorified in Christ in eternity past. We were not condemned in Christ in eternity past exactly the very same way we were glorified in Christ in eternity past - not one iota of difference.

 

[savedbymercy]

dw

Your logic is silly!

Spiritual matters are silly or foolish to the natural man. However, we know that the physical lives of the Elect were in reality in Adam at the time of his creation, because of the effects it rendered as a result of his actions.

And so Adam was a Type of Christ, of Him that was to come Rom 5:14. To come means to be made visibly manifested as per 1 Jn 3:5

And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins

The word here manifested is the greek word phaneroō:


to make manifest or visible or known what has been hidden or unknown, to

expose to view, make manifest, to show one's self, appear

The Son of God, existed in heaven , not visible, before He was incarnate and became visible in flesh and blood.

But even before this [His incarnation], He was the Head of His Body the Church.

Now Adam was manifested in time before Christ the Head was, but he did not exist before Christ the Head. So now if the elect were in Adam before they existed physically, then likewise they were in Christ before they exist spiritually through spiritual birth..

And if they were in Christ, then the condemnation they incurred by sinning in Adam Rom 5:18

18Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation;

That condemnation, which was theirs, i don't deny that, however God imputed it to the Charge of the Head, Christ ! Their condemnation was never imputed to their charge, but to the Charge of their Head and Surety..

2 Cor 5:19

19To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

So how could they have been condemned when God did not impute their Trespasses [beginning with Adam] unto them ?

 

[Dr. Walter]

dw



Spiritual matters are silly or foolish to the natural man.

CHALLENGE!!!!!

The Bible clearly and equally says we were "glorified" according to God's purpose before the world began as we were "justified" according to God's purpose "in Christ" before the world began.

If you interpretation of the Biblical texts has any validity whatsoever, if any truth whatsoever, then, here and now admit to us that you believe we were never UNGLORIFIED just as you demand we were never CONDEMNED because both are founded on the very same basis (Rom. 8:28-30; Eph. 1:4-14) you use to deny we were ever condemned!!!

There is the challenge - man up to it!

 

[savedbymercy]

CHALLENGE!!!!!

The Bible clearly and equally says we were "glorified" according to God's purpose before the world began as we were "justified" according to God's purpose "in Christ" before the world began.

If you interpretation of the Biblical texts has any validity whatsoever, if any truth whatsoever, then, here and now admit to us that you believe we were never UNGLORIFIED just as you demand we were never CONDEMNED because both are founded on the very same basis (Rom. 8:28-30; Eph. 1:4-14) you use to deny we were ever condemned!!!

There is the challenge - man up to it!

Your challenge is silly, The Elect have always been Justified and Glorified in their Head [ Based on His Finished Work of the Cross]. Jesus stated to His Father as He was praying as The Head of His Sheep and His Body Jn 17:5


5And now O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

Now, this same Glory He is requesting for, which He had before the world was, is as the Head of the Election of Grace, and yes, they were in Him then. Christ and His Church have a Eternal Union.

But these are Truths you have already proven you cannot receive and call them foolishness.

And yes the Elect were in Adam fallen and sinful creatures experientially, but they were always Glorified in God's Mind. Just Like Christ their Mediatorial Head was always Glorified, but He took on the Likeness of sinful flesh, and its stated afterwards that He was Glorified. Does that mean He unglorified ever in God's sight ?

All the Elect were also Glorified when Christ was Glorified when God raised Him for the Dead Eph 2:6

6And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

The Elect are Glorified then when they were MADE to sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus.

This is more Truth for you to reject and spurn as foolishness..

 

[Dr. Walter]

Your challenge is silly, The Elect have always been Justified and Glorified in their Head [ Based on His Finished Work of the Cross].

Therefore, you are stating that the elect "in Christ" were never unglorified just as they were never condemned because they were "justified" and "glorified" in Christ before the world began?????

Hence, you are interpreting the scriptures to teach that the elect in regard to their REALITY were never at any time lost, never at any time unglorified, never at any time condemned, never at any time unregenerated ("called"), because all of these things were their true EXISTING REALITY before they were ever born into this world rather than merely in God's MIND as a purpose not yet put into reality!

Rom. 8:28....to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29 ¶ For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.


Remember, you have stated many times already that the elect were not "condemned" in their pre-regenerate state between birth and regeneration. Hence, the same logic demands they were not unglorified between their birth and regeneration and most silly of all, they were not unregenerated between their birth and regeneration ("called")????? You talk about absolute foolish hogwash drawn straight out of hell - this takes the cake!

 

[savedbymercy]

dw

Therefore, you are stating that the elect "in Christ" were never unglorified just as they were never condemned because they were "justified" and "glorified" in Christ before the world began?????

I just explained what I mean in post 51 !

 

[Dr. Walter]

dw



I just explained what I mean in post 51 !

"And yes the Elect were in Adam fallen and sinful creatures experientially, but they were always Glorified in God's Mind." - SBG

If they were only "glorified IN GOD'S MIND" then they were only "justified" in God's mind as well as "justified" is inseparably connected to glorified in Romans 8:30. No place else but "in God's mind" before the world began. Hence, if they were "justified" and "glorified" only "in God's mind" before the world began then they were only "in Christ" in God's mind as well as there is no justification or glorificaiton outside of Christ. Hence, spiritual union with Christ before the world began was only "IN GOD's MIND." They had no other kind of existence before the world began but "IN GOD's MIND."

You cannot pick and choose here! There is no justification, glorification or any other aspect of salvation OUTSIDE of Christ and there is no justificaiton or glorification before the world began but "IN GOD'S MIND."

If as you admit they were "fallen and sinful creatures in Adam" then they were UNDER condemnation, unglorified, unjustified, and even as others children of WRATH except for "in God's mind" UNTIL what was "in God's mind" was actually applied to them in time and space.

You cannot pick and choose and that is exactly what you are forced to do by your own logic which shows your interpretation of scriptues are absolutely false.

 

[savedbymercy]

dw

If they were only "glorified IN GOD'S MIND"

You act like that does not mean anything. Its real to God, that matters above anything else, thats why He gives His People Faith, so they can perceive whats real because its real to Him.

Faith is the substance of things hoped for the evidence of thinhs not seen, but the substance and evidence is a reality to God..

The elect were never condemned by God for their sins, Christ was..

 

[Dr. Walter]

dw



You act like that does not mean anything. Its real to God, that matters above anything else, thats why He gives His People Faith, so they can perceive whats real because its real to Him.

Faith is the substance of things hoped for the evidence of thinhs not seen, but the substance and evidence is a reality to God..

The elect were never condemned by God for their sins, Christ was..

The elect were no more real in the mind of God than anything in YOUR MIND that has not yet been fulfilled! There is no objective reality to anything in YOUR MIND that has not yet been fulfilled. The only SUBSTANCE in YOUR MIND concerning yet UNFULFILLED plans is faith and faith is inseparable to hope and where there is hope there is no FULFILLMENT AS YET:

Rom. 8:24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.

Heb.11:1 ¶ Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

The only difference between a purpose in YOUR MIND and in the MIND OF GOD is power. However, until God exercises His power to bring it to pass it is an UNFULFILLED purpose without any tangible, concrete existence other than THOUGHT!

 

[savedbymercy]

dw

The elect were no more real in the mind of God than anything in YOUR MIND

Blasphemy..

 

[Dr. Walter]

dw



Blasphemy..

I got news for you, What is in the mind of God becomes real only by the Power of God and that is called CREATION! No, blasphemy is what you are doing. Your doctrine teaches the blasphemy of polytheism which violates the first commandment. Your doctrine perverts God's word and that is blasphemy.

You cannot answer the evidences placed before you so you resort to names and proof texts out of context responses.

 

[savedbymercy]

dw

I got news for you, What is in the mind of God becomes real only by the Power of God and that is called CREATION!

More Blasphemy. Abraham was a Father to many Nations before God exercised one bit of His Creative Power Gen 17:5

5Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.

Rom 4:17

17(As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

The very word of God itself makes it True and Real to God ! And to those of use who God gives Faith, His Promises are True and Real to them also.

Based upon God's word alone, a Childless Abraham could have called himself a Father, though the natural mind of men would have thought he was crazy..

 

[Dr. Walter]

dw



More Blasphemy. Abraham was a Father to many Nations before God exercised one bit of His Creative Power Gen 17:5

5Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.

Rom 4:17

17(As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

The very word of God itself makes it True and Real to God ! And to those of use who God gives Faith, His Promises are True and Real to them also.

Based upon God's word alone, a Childless Abraham could have called himself a Father, though the natural mind of men would have thought he was crazy..

My oh my it seems you cannot even read what you write! What does Romans 4:17 say? "things WHICH BE NOT as THOUGH they were"! Paul is not saying the reverse "things WHICH BE as THOUGH THEY BE NOT" but that is exactly what you are teaching - you are teaching they are real and the non-reality is simply a lack of faith to believe they are already real.

My oh my it seems you cannot even understand what God called a "promise" rather than a reality! He simply called him "Abraham" according to the promise not according to reality. Only when God fulfilled the promise did it become reality!! We are "promised" children but we are not children in reality until the promise is fulfilled and the promise is only fulfilled when Isaac was born and when we are born again that is when we are "created in Christ Jesus" (Eph. 2:10).

Again, you are not consistent. You have no logical right or Biblical ground to argue that we NEVER WERE CONDEMNED unless you argue equally we NEVER WERE UNREGENERATED and NEVER WERER UNGLORIFIED because eternal justification is inseparablly united to eternal calling and glorification in Romans 8:28-30 "according to His purpose" before the world began! You cannot answer this because it exposes your logic as error and your use of scriptures as error. You run from this challenge and call it "silly" because it exposes your heresy.