No condemnation in Christ Jesus !

[savedbymercy]

dw

My oh my it seems you cannot even read what you write!

It appears you do not understand the things I posted. Things that are Real and True in the Eternal Mind, dont have to materialize in time for them to be True to God. You are subjecting God to be liken to creatures of time, more Blasphemy..

You have no logical right or Biblical ground to argue that we NEVER WERE CONDEMNED

The Reason I have is because Christ was charged with the sins of the elect before time began. They [The Elect] never had one sin legally charged to them, not ever ! Rom 4:8

8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

 

[Dr. Walter]

dw



It appears you do not understand the things I posted. Things that are Real and True in the Eternal Mind, dont have to materialize in time for them to be True to God. You are subjecting God to be liken to creatures of time, more Blasphemy..

So you do read that text in reverse just as I accused you of doing as that is exactly what you are trying to defend here - "things WHICH BE as THOUGH THEY BE NOT" rather than what it actually says, "things which be NOT as though they were."

No one denies the PLANS of God are real PLANS but that is not what we are arguing about. You are arguing that the elect REALISTICALLY EXISTED as part of God's very Substance which is spiritual in the very same sense that all of the human race existed as part of Adam's very substance which is physical. You are teaching the essence of Mormonism and that the preincarnate Son of God was an actual "Father" of spirits that were derived from his own DIVINE ESSENCE or Spirit substance. That is blasphemy to the hilt.

The Reason I have is because Christ was charged with the sins of the elect before time began. They [The Elect] never had one sin legally charged to them, not ever ! Rom 4:8

8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

Again you run from my challenge! You call it silly because it exposes your teaching as absolute nonsense and heresy.

Again, I challenge you to be consistent and assert that you believe that the elect NEVER SINNED in Adam because they were already "glorified" in Christ before the world began.

Again, I challenge you to be consistent and assert that you believe that the elect NEVER WERE UNREGENERATED in Adam because they were already "called" in Christ before the world began!

You cannot believe in the doctrine that the elect were NEVER CONDEMNED in Adam but were eternally JUSTIFIED in Christ before the world began unless you believe the same about glorification and calling in Christ before the world began BECAUSE Paul makes justification INSEPARABLE from being "called" and "glorified" in Christ before the world began "according to God's purpose" - Romans 8:28-30

Readers, SBG will never take this challenge, he will continue to ignore and call it silly because it is not possible for him to refute it and it exposes his whole view as error.

 

[savedbymercy]

dw

So you do read that text in reverse just as I accused you of doing as that is exactly what you are trying to defend here - "things WHICH BE as THOUGH THEY BE NOT" rather than what it actually says, "things which be NOT as though they were."

Yes, they were not as far as in time was concerned, but they were in God's Mind. When God told Abraham that He was the Father of Many Nations, it was True with God , even though Abraham was childless.

Everything that happens in this life, has been, [In the Purpose of God]

Ecc 3:15

15That which hath been is now; and that which is to be hath already been; and God requireth that which is past.

God is not like man, man can only think and understand in the succession of time, but God is above that, all His Thoughts and Decree's are all Eternally Simultaneous. In my opinion you have a very degrading opinion of God.

 

[Dr. Walter]

dw



Yes,

So you have no problem with making this text say and mean the reverse of what it actually says means just to make the promise to Abraham fit your scheme???????

they were not as far as in time was concerned, but they were in God's Mind. When God told Abraham that He was the Father of Many Nations, it was True with God , even though Abraham was childless.

But this text is the explanation given rather than you admitted perversion of the text!!! The text does not say what you force it to say but it says the very opposite.

God is not like man, man can only think and understand in the succession of time, but God is above that, all His Thoughts and Decree's are all Eternally Simultaneous. In my opinion you have a very degrading opinion of God.

No one argues that God is like man (except you with you in adam like in Christ analogy) or that God is confined to time. However, all created things are confined to time and can be measured by time. But you are asserting the eternal actual existence of the elect EQUAL to God as you demand they are in eternal SPIRITUAL UNION with the very nature of God. That is Mormonism in essence and polytheism in reality.

Furthermore, you cannot pick "justification" out of the Mind of God in Romans 3:30 and regard it as actual and eternal but reject "called" and "glorified" as equally in the mind of God and inseparable from God's eternal purpose. If the elect were eternally justified because justification is found in the eternal purpose of God then the elect were also eternally glorified as "glorified" is also found in the eternal purpose of God before creation. If the elect were eternally justified because justification is foun din the eternal purpose of God before creation then they were also eternally "called" or regenerated and thus never condemned, never sinned, never unregenerated because all are equally found in the eternal purpose of God before creation.

 

[savedbymercy]

dw

But this text is the explanation given rather than you admitted perversion of the text!!!

I responded and you reject the response, thats all on you..And, The Elect have always been in Christ, they were Chosen in Him Before the foundation Eph 1:4


4According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

And hence, when they fell in Adam, they were not condemned, they could not be, because they were already in Christ. Now they became sinful, alienated from the Life of God, captive to the devil, but their legal condemnation was laid to Christ charge, and if you teach different you are teaching a false gospel. The elect world never had any trespass laid to their charge, Paul Preached that Here 2 Cor 5:19


19To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

 

[Dr. Walter]

dw



I responded and you reject the response, thats all on you..

No, that is not all! You admitted to actually perverting that text making it mean the very opposite of what it said! Think about that! Any person claiming to be a Bible student who must resort to perverting God's Word to force it to say what he admits it does not say cannot be taken seriously and any doctrine dependent upon such admission is obviously false! Your doctrine is so obviously false that all you can do is repeat your proof texts jerked out of context and that is precisely what you continue to do in this post.

 

[savedbymercy]

John 3:18


18He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Many look at this verse and read into it the ideal that the elect are at sometime in their life condemned, perhaps when they are still in unbelief by Nature.

However, that is not what Jesus is saying in the text. Jesus is stating what is manifestly true of those He faced during His Public Ministry.

Those who were believing on Him gave evidence of not being condemned, that is their sins never were charged or imputed against them, and so their believing on Him gave evidence of that.

On the other hand, those not believing on Him was giving evidence that they were under condemnation for their sins, that is , their sins were never charged to Him as their substitute, and their not believing gave evidence to that fact..

They are believing not simply because as Jesus stated later they were not of His Sheep Jn 10:26


26But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

So, whoever is not of Christ Sheep, which He died for Jn 10:11,15 then their sins are still being charged against them.

The Sheep on the other hand, will come to be believing, because their sins have been charged to Him, and consequently, they were never condemned for them.

So Jn 3:18 is no rebuttal against the Truth of the Fact that the elect are never condemned legally by God for their sins, because they have always been in Christ and their sins were never imputed to their Charge Legally.

 

[Dr. Walter]

John 3:18


18He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Many look at this verse and read into it the ideal that the elect are at sometime in their life condemned, perhaps when they are still in unbelief by Nature.

Note the PRESENT TENSE VERBS - "beleiveth not" or those PRESENTLY NOT BELIEVING in Jesus Note the PAST TENSE VERB "condemned already." Why is he already condemned? Because he is not PRESENTLY in the state of faith. Why is he condemned already? Because in the past he is in a state of unbelief.

Note the object of faith - "in the name of the only Begotten Son of God".

The grammar is clear. All who come in this world in a state of UNBELIEF - meaning they have not confessed faith in Jesus Christ are condemned and stay condemned until that confession is made.

Note that Jesus does not say "Only non-elect non-proffessors are condemned already as only non-elect unbelievers come into the world as non-professors in Christ and therefore only PRESENT non-elect non-professors are condemned.

The condemnation has to do with a NON-PROFESSION not with election!

They are believing not simply because as Jesus stated later they were not of His Sheep Jn 10:26


26But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

You are confusing apples with oranges! John 3:18-19 describes the legal condition of humans while in the UNCONFESSED state whereas John 10:26 provides the reason why some in that condition cannot make that confession. However, John 27-28 demands that "sheep" must "come" to Christ which is a metaphor of coming from the unconfessed state to the professed state. If your theory were correct they would NEVER HAVE TO COME just as you believe they NEVER HAVE BEEN CONDEMNED. However, the fact they still must "come" proves they are "even as others" condemned while in the unconfessed state.

The elect were condemned in time and space. They were not condemned according to God's ultimate fulfillment of his purpose of salvation (Rom. 8:28-30) or in the provision of Christ but they did come into this world LEGALLY condemned as that is what the designation "sinned" and "sinner" IS - the legal condemnation by the law for "COMING SHORT OF THE GLORY OF GOD."

 

[savedbymercy]

dw

Note the PRESENT TENSE VERBS

Doesnt change anything.

 

[Dr. Walter]

dw



Doesnt change anything.

I have noticed that no amount of contrary evidence means anything to you.

May ask what if any kind of training you have recieved or submitted to that makes you feel you are qualified to teach others?

 

[savedbymercy]

John 17:23-24

John 17:23-24

23I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

24Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

Loved before the foundation of the world. Scripture without any ambiguity states that the Father Loved Jesus Christ His Son BEFORE the foundation of the world, in Fact, Christ Himself says it, and He goes on to say that the Father also Loved His Disciples in the same way, that is before the foundation of the world. My challenge to those who don't believe, is Did the Father Love Beings or Entities that did not exist save in His imagination ? That they did not exist before the foundation of the world for Him to have Loved them at that time? It was said of Jeremiah that I have Loved thee with an Everlasting Love Jer 31:3, a Love that had no beginning nor does it have an ending ! So in the Eternal Mind of God, was there a time He did not Love His Son the Lord Jesus Christ, and those Chosen in Him. It would be foolish to disregard the fact that Christ Jesus, the Mediator [1 Tim 2:5] by which capacity He was presently speaking [In Jn 17] existed before the world began, when He states in vs 5


5And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I [As Mediator] had with thee before the world was.

He had a Preincarnated and Precreation Mediatorial Glory given Him BEFORE the world was ! Now if He did exist as Christ the Mediator, The Head of the Church, so did His Seed Exist in Him, and was Loved by the Father as He was Loved by the Father. To even suggest that the Father Loved only a figment of His Imagination. or entities that to Him did not exist, is Blasphemy ! Its failure to acknowledge the Greatness of God, and a attempt to make Him out to be as one of us..

 

[Dr. Walter]

John 17:23-24

23I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

24Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

Loved before the foundation of the world.

Does not say "existed as a human before the world began" does it? He does not say "me - the human being" but obviously the same "me - "the word" that the same writer (John) says prexisted before creation (Jn. 1:1-3). The "Son" of God was never "created" at all but is the Creator (Jn. 1:3) as nothing that is created was Created by "the Word." You must READ INTO it your perverted view and you must do that with EVERY proof text you use.

5And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I [As Mediator] had with thee before the world was.

He had a Preincarnated and Precreation Mediatorial Glory given Him BEFORE the world was ! Now if He did exist as Christ the Mediator, The Head of the Church, so did His Seed Exist in Him, and was Loved by the Father as He was Loved by the Father. To even suggest that the Father Loved only a figment of His Imagination. or entities that to Him did not exist, is Blasphemy ! Its failure to acknowledge the Greatness of God, and a attempt to make Him out to be as one of us..

You have to ADD to God's word [As Mediator] in order to FORCE your views into the text! His "glory" was the same "glory" as the Father which is the "glory OF GOD" and that is as pre-existent "Word" as the same writer says clearly and explicitly (Jn. 1:1).

The metaphorical use of the term "head" NEVER refers to any kind of spiritual or physical union but is commonly and only used in Scripture as a metaphor for "authority." I have repeatedly placed this evidence before you and you repeatedly ignore it as you do all contrary evidence to your wild imaginations.

 

[savedbymercy]

dw

Does not say "existed as a human before the world began" does it?

It does not have to ! He existed as Mediator. 1 Tim 2:5


5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

If He existed as the One Mediator, then it was as The Man Christ Jesus

 

[TCGreek]

dw



It does not have to ! He existed as Mediator. 1 Tim 2:5


5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

If He existed as the One Mediator, then it was as The Man Christ Jesus

Jesus ONLY became human in the incarnation, not before. Are the simple truths of John 1 been lost upon you?

 

[Dr. Walter]

Jesus ONLY became human in the incarnation, not before. Are the simple truths of John 1 been lost upon you?

Good luck! He has admitted to changing the Scripture to say the very opposite of what it says to defend his views (Rom. 4:17). He habitually ignores any valid evidence contrary to his view. He habitually pits scripture against scripture as his normal and usual method of responding to contrary scriptures to his view!

Good luck!

 

[savedbymercy]

No condemnation in Christ Jesus !



Rom 8:1

1There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus !

Paul means by this " NOW" the discovery of it, the No Condemnation status ! For God's Elect; For God's Elect, those whom Christ died for, are always, even before they believe free from condemnation, because they have been reconciled to God by the Death of His Son [See Rom 5:10] and on account of Christ's Mediatoral Work, and because they had been Chosen IN Christ before the foundation [Eph 1:4]. Now the Elect in time have a first time discovery of their Justification ' for Christ's sake" by the Spirit of God and The Gospel, so it is now said of them, that walk not according to the flesh [unregenerate] but do walk after the Spirit, and what the Spirit revealed to their Faith. To walk after the Spirit is the same thing as walking by Faith.

So no one Christ died for in the flesh can be condemned for sin of any kind, because He came in the likeness of sinful flesh and all their sins were condemned, so that He condemned sin in the Flesh of those He died for. Rom 8:3

3For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

God reveals this blessed Truth to them, and they now understand that they never have been condemned, because in order for Christ to be condemned for their sins in the flesh, they had to be imputed to Him and not to them[2 Cor 5:19], and if they were not imputed to them, they were not condemned for them, but He was !

 

[savedbymercy]

Made Vessels of Mercy !



The Elect, all those Christ died for, and who had been chosen in Him and given Grace in Him before the foundation of the world, for they could never had under God's condemnation and wrath as per Jn 3:18,36, not even as unbelievers and enemies because God created them specifically as vessels of Mercy Rom 9:23

And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

Their whole created existence as sinners was in order that God would demonstrate His Mercy unto them apart from others who are also born sinners, but as vessels of wrath were they created !

God created them for Mercy and in due time they shall fear God properly, and then shall it be manifested, what saith the psalm 103:17

17But the mercy of the LORD is from everlasting to everlasting upon them that fear him, and his righteousness unto children's children;

Condemnation is without Mercy James 2:13

For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.

Judgment here is the greek word krisis:

sentence of condemnation, damnatory judgment, condemnation and punishment

The Vessels of Mercy have never been under God's sentence of condemnation , but always, from everlasting, under His mercy !

 

[savedbymercy]

Rom 8:33-34 When does God condemn the Elect ?



Rom 8:33-4

33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

When does God ever lay any charge against His Elect ? When does He ever condemn them ?

 

[savedbymercy]

Rom 8:33-34 When does God condemn the Elect ?



Rom 8:33-4

33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

When does God ever lay any charge against His Elect ? When does He ever condemn them ?

I did not think anyone would try to answer this question !

I will answer it. God never lays any Charges on His Elect, not ever ! Neither has He ever condemned them !

So these here could have never been God's Elect Jn 3:18

18He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Even in unbelief that could not have been the Elect !

 

[DaChaser1]

dt



Well, the elect are always in Christ in the religious beliefs I hold, i don't know about your religion.



Thats not according to my beliefs, the elect are in Christ before they are born into this world by Election.



Only if they are not God's elect, those Christ died for according to my views, they were reconciled to God by the Death of His Son, even while they were enemies by Nature. Rom 5:10

10For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

You see, the elect, even while they were enemies, that is unbelievers by nature, they still had been reconciled to God ! How ? Not by their Faith, but by the Death of God's Son, His Blood..

So, you see, my views are different from yours, and mine are supported by scripture.



Not the Ones Christ died for, Gods wrath hath been propitiated in their behalf by His Blood

remember, Election NOT same as salvation!