No Cross? No problem!

[HankD]

I remember seeing an ad on TV concerning the needs of 3rd world children.

In the ad, two babies were playing with toys, they were less than a year old because they were not yet walking but crawling.

One of the babies grabbed (yanked away) the other one's toy in a less than peaceful manner.

The "victim" promptly socked the other one in the face. There was weeping and wailing.

Babies are sinners waiting for sin to blossom and ripen.
They come fully equiped from our father Adam the first man.

An apple tree is still an apple tree upon germination even before it blossoms and bears fruit.
The instructional programming to bear apples is in their DNA passed on down from the first apple tree.

The actual age of "accountability" when the fruit has ripened, only God knows.

I believe it is safe to say its not determined by a given birthday in the life of the sinner.

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:​

HankD​

 

[webdog]

Exactly

21And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.

Did you miss "from his youth" in there? I did not read "from conception".

 

[webdog]

Yea, it's what Winman, Webdog and Willis believe.

It is absolutely horrific.

Another lie. You are getting good at this. I NEVER said we weren't born "into sin" as the other Luke said. Quit being dishonest.

I see you failed to add Tom Butler to your list. Wonder why? Oh...probably because he is a calvinist that doesn't buy the company line. Is he a heretic like the rest of us in your opinion?

 

[webdog]

How does that even make sense? They don't read plain or what?

No, Luke (not you) is being dishonest. Not one person here believes we are unaffected by sin.

 

[webdog]

Show me a verse that says we are born innocent.

Not one person has said that. Are you innocent, or not guilty in God's eye?

 

[webdog]

When you deny this....you deny the gospel

also through the obedience of the one, shall the many be constituted righteous.

Romans 5:19 (Common English Bible)
19 Many people were made righteous through the obedience of one person, just as many people were made sinners through the disobedience of one person.

You do realize the "so also" connects these two, right? If your understanding is true, universalism is also true.

 

[Luke2427]

Not one person has said that. Are you innocent, or not guilty in God's eye?

No one is misrepresenting you.

How do babies get to Heaven, Webdog?

It is because they are not sinners, right? Isn't that your position?

Doesn't that demand that all men are not born sinners?

Of course it does.

 

[webdog]

No one is misrepresenting you.

How do babies get to Heaven, Webdog?

It is because they are not sinners, right? Isn't that your position?

Doesn't that demand that all men are not born sinners?

Of course it does.

Since you surely don't want to misrepresent me rolleyes, why not answer the question first. Are you innocent or not guilty?

 

[luke1616]

Ok, I think I'm getting it now and it makes sense. Guess I never put much thought into it. So we are born into sin, born under the curse, and it is inevitable without Christ we will commit our first sin, at whatever age. So as a three year old I commit a sin because it's my nature, then later when I can understand, I accept Christ. I think this is what you are saying Webdog?

 

[webdog]

Ok, I think I'm getting it now and it makes sense. Guess I never put much thought into it. So we are born into sin, born under the curse, and it is inevitable without Christ we will commit our first sin, at whatever age. So as a three year old I commit a sin because it's my nature, then later when I can understand, I accept Christ. I think this is what you are saying Webdog?

For the most part, yes...although having 2 small children I can tell you it's much younger than 3 My daughter knows instinctively when she does something wrong, but doesn't grasp that when she disobeys dad she is really disobeying God and breaking God's law. This is the point Paul was making when he said "when the commandment came sin came to life and I died".

sin·ner

noun \ˈsi-nər\
Definition of SINNER

1
: one that sins

 

[luke1616]

Sin was already there, the commandment came and he realised it the more.

 

[webdog]

Sin was already there, the commandment came and he realised it the more.

That's not what he says. He didn't say "this is what I perceived", he said emphatically "I was alive apart from the law". He also didn't say that sin was already there, but as the NLTse translates, "But when I learned the command" sin came to life separating him from God in the same way it occurred with Adam and every man, woman and child since.

 

[Winman]

For the most part, yes...although having 2 small children I can tell you it's much younger than 3 My daughter knows instinctively when she does something wrong, but doesn't grasp that when she disobeys dad she is really disobeying God and breaking God's law. This is the point Paul was making when he said "when the commandment came sin came to life and I died".

sin·ner

noun \ˈsi-nər\
Definition of SINNER

1
: one that sins

Yes, children start sinning very early, but certainly not the day they are born. Here is one of the funniest videos ever on YouTube. Little Charlie can't be more than 15 months old, but he is smart and knows what he is doing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WfUk7j4IhWQ

Little Charlie is not old enough to understand sin and the death penalty before God. But he is quite able to sin.

 

[HankD]

Yes, children start sinning very early, but certainly not the day they are born. Here is one of the funniest videos ever on YouTube. Little Charlie can't be more than 15 months old, but he is smart and knows what he is doing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WfUk7j4IhWQ

Little Charlie is not old enough to understand sin and the death penalty before God. But he is quite able to sin.

Indeed he is.

Because it's universal to humankind and an unlearned behavior then he must have inherited it.

No?

Birds fly, fish swim, humankind sins.

Psalm 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.​

He is however innocent because as you said he has no understanding of what he did and why he did it.

HankD

 

[webdog]

Indeed he is.

Because it's universal to humankind and an unlearned behavior then he must have inherited it.

No?

Birds fly, fish swim, humankind sins.

Psalm 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.​

He is however innocent because as you said he has no understanding of what he did and why he did it.

HankD

Here I would say he's not "innocent", as he committed the act...but in a court of law justice would deem him "not guilty". The same applies with redeemed adults. We are never innocent of our transgressions, but due to Christ's blood covering us, God now sees us as not guilty.

 

[Luke2427]

Here I would say he's not "innocent", as he committed the act...but in a court of law justice would deem him "not guilty". The same applies with redeemed adults. We are never innocent of our transgressions, but due to Christ's blood covering us, God now sees us as not guilty.

Is it sin or not?

 

[Winman]

Birds fly, fish swim, humankind sins.

Is it a sin for an animal to follow it's God given instinct? Is it wrong for a lion to chase down and kill a zebra? No, that is his God given instinct.

Our lusts and desires are natural. It is natural to get hungry and desire food, there is nothing wrong with that, we need to eat to survive and be healthy. It is when we go beyond what God designed that we sin. If we overeat we become a glutton which is sin. We can become obese and experience health problems. We can also go the other way and not eat enough and experience health problems as well.

The sex drive is not evil, it is a wonderful part of marriage and is necessary for us to survive as well. It is when we go outside of marriage that it is evil.

The Lord Jesus was very hungry after he fasted 40 days. This is the same kind of lust or desire we experience, his body was 100% human. This is exactly why Satan used this attack knowing he was hungry. But Jesus did not obey the lust of his flesh, and therefore did not sin.

When Eve saw that the fruit was good to make one wise, this is not evil, God tells us to be wise. We are told to study and be knowledgeable. But in this case it was wrong because God had forbidden her to eat this fruit. She obeyed her lust and stepped outside the boundaries God had set for her.

The body itself is not sinful. The body does not think or make decisions, it is the soul of man, the self that controls the body. The body is simply an instrument.

You are hungry, but you have no money. You see a nice apple stand and are tempted to steal an apple. It is the body that desires the apple, it is natural hunger. But the body cannot decide to steal the apple, the soul of man decides to steal the apple. The body is simply an instrument controlled by the soul of man.

Eze 18:The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

It is the soul that sins, not the body. The body has the lust and desire, but it is the soul that controls the actions of the body.

And notice God says a son shall not bear the sin or iniquity of his father. We are not guilty of Adam's sin, we are guilty for our own sins.

Jesus had a body exactly like ours. He had lust and desires. But he did not obey these lusts when they went outside the boundaries God set and so did not sin.

 

[webdog]

Is it sin or not?

Charlie? No. The act of biting someone can be a sin, and it's clear Charlie hurt him, but its the intentions of the heart in what constitutes whether it is a sin. Would a jury find Charlie guilty? The boy put his finger in his mouth, btw.

 

[Luke2427]

Charlie? No. The act of biting someone can be a sin, and it's clear Charlie hurt him, but its the intentions of the heart in what constitutes whether it is a sin. Would a jury find Charlie guilty? The boy put his finger in his mouth, btw.

If it is not a sin then it does not require the blood of Christ.

Do you not understand this?

Do you not understand that Christ shed his blood for SIN?

If the baby has no sin then he does not need the blood of Christ.

If he goes to heaven without the blood of Christ then he is greeted there by the VAST majority of Heaven's population who, like him, got there WITHOUT THE CROSS.

 

[webdog]

If it is not a sin then it does not require the blood of Christ.

Do you not understand this?

I do understand it...do you think Charlie sinned in biting his brother's finger?

Do you not understand that Christ shed his blood for SIN?

Sin, death and the curse.

If the baby has no sin then he does not need the blood of Christ.

He still has the stain of sin in his nature that is at enmity with God, so yes Christ did still dies for him.

If he goes to heaven without the blood of Christ then he is greeted there by the VAST majority of Heaven's population who, like him, got there WITHOUT THE CROSS.

N/A