No dead babies, little children, infants in Hell?

[jdlongmire]

Which is it? Are infants elect or not? You have infants being condemned and being elect at the same time.

No - I contend that infants, dying in infancy, are elect - stained by original sin, but covered by the blood of Christ through His grace.

Infants, not dying in infancy, pass through infancy into the age of reason - they will then either pass into the ordo salutis and confirm their election or continue in unrepentant sin and confirm their reprobation.

 

[Amy.G]

No - I contend that infants, dying in infancy, are elect - stained by original sin, but covered by the blood of Christ through His grace.

Infants, not dying in infancy, pass through infancy into the age of reason - they will then either pass into the ordo salutis and confirm their election or continue in unrepentant sin and confirm their reprobation.

Again, I do not see scripture for this. You have created a doctrine based on the opinions of men.

There is very little scripture that mentions anything about infants and salvation. How do you come to this conclusion? And please do not post a commentary by John Calvin.

 

[jdlongmire]

That's not what the Bible says.

Yes - it does.

All mankind are sinners and ungodly, but in context of that particular passage, some are beloved and will be saved and some are the ungodly, who will be judged and destroyed.

2 Peter 3:7
But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

 

[jdlongmire]

Again, I do not see scripture for this. You have created a doctrine based on the opinions of men.

There is very little scripture that mentions anything about infants and salvation. How do you come to this conclusion? And please do not post a commentary by John Calvin.

ok - I have extensively posted my rationale with scriptural and scholarly support - at this point I do not see a reason to continue repeating myself.

I would be interested, however, to understand your rationale concerning infants, dying in infancy.

Hell-bound?
Heaven-bound?

 

[Brother Bob]

Bro Bob -

1) God, the Father is independent of time, so this illustration is not relevant.

2) The Father gives the elect, whom he has foreknown, to Christ

The crux of the matter is how one understands "foreknown".

Foreknow as it relates to God is not like prophecy, where one speaks of future events before they happen. Foreknow in the scriptural sense is active, not passive. When God "foreknows" something, it is a decree of His sovereign will.

That is - there is not a set of circumstances that can occur that will stop a foreknown event from occurring.

God foreknows His elect. Not based on "before knowing" some future event, but divinely and sovereignly decreeing "thus shall it be". He foreknows us in eternity, so we are and shall be. Where do you get the eternity knowing, scripture please. In #1 you speak of it as time, here you speak of it as decreeing, which is it.

4268
prognwsiV
prognosis
prog'-no-sis
from proginwskw - proginosko 4267; forethought:--foreknowledge

Foreknows involves time and as you say, God is not bound by time. It is foreknow to us, but if God is omnipresence, He is at both happenings at the same time. How could it be foreknow to God, when He knows all. If He know all in eternity, how could it be foreknow to Him. Man is the one who is bound by time, not God.

When you say God foreknew, you are binding Him to time. If God Knows now and God knew in the beginning at the same time, then with God, how could it be foreknow. When He says "foreknew", it is for the benefit of man, not God.

Does God "foreknow" how each of us is going to die???? The reason it is "foreknow" is because we are not dead yet.

BBob,

 

[Brother Bob]

He was a "dead man walking" - he was not (and all the elect, pre-regeneration, are not) aware of his spiritual death until exposed to the Law through the Spirit.


from here

So, Apostle Paul, an Apostle of God did not know, what you know? Paul said he was once alive, but you say he was dead and didn't know it, but you know, he was dead. Remember Paul was talking in this scripture after being converted. Come on jd, that sure don't hold water.

BBob,

 

[Jarthur001]

When you say God foreknew, you are binding Him to time. If God Knows now and God knew in the beginning at the same time, then with God, how could it be foreknow.



BBob,

Careful Bob,

"For whom He FOREKNEW He also predestined..."

He in this passage is God. The Bible says HE foreknow so your time argument does not work here.


foreknowing of God is given to show us that God knew before the event happened.

This is the point of election as seen in Romans 9

(

For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth

not yet born....
before they were born....
before the event of birth happened..

neither having done any good or bad...
before they did any good or bad
before they had a chance to do good or bad
before they even knew or understood good or bad
before they even had a mind to think...
before they were a egg in their mother....
before their mother was born...

that the purpose of God according to election might stand
to prove it was God choice....
To prove it was not because they was chosen because they were good..
To prove one was not chosen just because he was bad...

not of works
It was before they were born and not based on any work the boys would do someday....
it was before they were born and not based on any choice of the boys was made...
it was before they were born and not based on the boys hearing the truth and rejecting it...

but of him that calleth
He was chosen before they did any thing at all and had never made a choice, and before they even heard of God, nor was it based on what would happen, or what choice would be made, but based on God's own choice, the one that calleth.

That is why we see the word "fore" used when it comes to election

 

[jdlongmire]

Man is the one who is bound by time, not God.

When you say God foreknew, you are binding Him to time. If God Knows now and God knew in the beginning at the same time, then with God, how could it be foreknow. When He says "foreknew", it is for the benefit of man, not God.

Does God "foreknow" how each of us is going to die???? The reason it is "foreknow" is because we are not dead yet.

BBob,

BBob, I think we are getting fairly far afield here. Yes, God is not bound by time, but He does work in sequence. And yes, there is nothing hidden from God nor surprising to Him, nor works outside His purpose.

Here is the mental image I use. This Creation is like a great, living tapestry of space and time that God has unfurled, fully formed, foreknown. The tapestry "reads" from one side to the other, that is, it has a beginning, middle and end. God is "above" and "outside" the tapestry, yet fully engaged "inside" the tapestry, as well.

So, all events are contained in sequence - that is - how the tapestry "reads", yet all events are fully foreknown in toto by God.

 

[Brother Bob]

Careful Bob,

"For whom He FOREKNEW He also predestined..."

He in this passage is God. The Bible says HE foreknow so your time argument does not work here.


foreknowing of God is given to show us that God knew before the event happened.

This is the point of election as seen in Romans 9

James, I really hate to start down this road again. We covered this for two years.

Question; Does God "foreknow" our death??

(
not yet born....
before they were born....
before the event of birth happened..

Before our death.

neither having done any good or bad...
before they did any good or bad
before they had a chance to do good or bad
before they even knew or understood good or bad
before they even had a mind to think...
before they were a egg in their mother....
before their mother was born...

God foreknew all of us James, not just you and a few.

that the purpose of God according to election might stand
to prove it was God choice....
To prove it was not because they was chosen because they were good..
To prove one was not chosen just because he was bad...

How do you know, being God is here and there now at the same time?

not of works
It was before they were born and not based on any work the boys would do someday....
it was before they were born and not based on any choice of the boys was made...
it was before they were born and not based on the boys hearing the truth and rejecting it...

Means only that God knows all and is Omnipresence and Omniscience.

but of him that calleth
He was chosen before they did any thing at all and had never made a choice, and before they even heard of God, nor was it based on what would happen, or what choice would be made, but based on God's own choice, the one that calleth.

No, but God sees all, our death, He surely seen who believed and who did not.

That is why we see the word "fore" used when it comes to election

Is is proper to use fore, because God knows all, and knew who would believe.

BBob,

 

[jdlongmire]

So, Apostle Paul, an Apostle of God did not know, what you know? Paul said he was once alive, but you say he was dead and didn't know it, but you know, he was dead. Remember Paul was talking in this scripture after being converted. Come on jd, that sure don't hold water.

BBob,

BBob, not sure what you are disagreeing with. Paul is giving an example all believers experience that have been exposed to Law through the Spirit.

That is, in our pre-quickened state, we are perfectly satisfied in our own self-righteous, self-centered, self-governed state. Spiritual zombies, so to speak. The Law is what we decide to do - "whatever is right in our own eyes". (For a real world example, interact with some atheists, for a while.)

When the Spirit quickens us, we become aware of the true consequence of our state of sin. It becomes a crime of monumental magnitude against a holy God as opposed to an unfortunate circumstance.

That is the purpose of the Law for the believer - a chastening rod to drive us to understand our helplessness, inability and unrighteousness before our holy God and into the arms of Jesus.

 

[Cutter]

Again, I do not see scripture for this. You have created a doctrine based on the opinions of men.

You must remember with whom you are dealing with. This is a man that illuminates scripture. Not everybody is an illuminator like jdlongmire! We should all be impressed and seek to become illuminators like this esteemed man. :laugh:

 

[Brother Bob]

BBob, I think we are getting fairly far afield here. Yes, God is not bound by time, but He does work in sequence. And yes, there is nothing hidden from God nor surprising to Him, nor works outside His purpose.

Here is the mental image I use. This Creation is like a great, living tapestry of space and time that God has unfurled, fully formed, foreknown. The tapestry "reads" from one side to the other, that is, it has a beginning, middle and end. God is "above" and "outside" the tapestry, yet fully engaged "inside" the tapestry, as well.

So, all events are contained in sequence - that is - how the tapestry "reads", yet all events are fully foreknown in toto by God.

Right, so "belief" is foreknown also.

BBob,

 

[Jarthur001]

Is is proper to use fore, because God knows all, and knew who would believe.

BBob,

yes...God knows all things and this includes our death.

This is the weakness of the freewill view. God knows all people.
When the Bibel says..""For whom He FOREKNEW He also predestined..."...God knows all people. Did God predestine all people to heaven? No one would say this.

So foreknew must mean more then just knowing about people and what they do.

******

The "time thing" applies to both God and man. God is not limited to time, which means God will never end. It also could mean, but would not hurt if it did not include that God was before time. Saying God is timeless does not mean God does not use time. This use of time by God is not just limited to telling us when something happened.

Time was part of creation. Before the world was, there was no time. When God chose He chose before time was. This does not mean it is the same as choosing today at noon. It means before creation God chose. Sense creation because God works in creation, saving lost sinners and other things, God also works in time. This does not limit God. Time exist because God made it, and God using it. Time is Good. At some point time will stop. God will not stop, God goes on forever.

Christ said he would come back someday. That is a time factor. It is not now that Christ is back. It was not in the past. God said it and He means it. It is based on time. And for God to use time limits him in no way.

 

[Brother Bob]

BBob, not sure what you are disagreeing with. Paul is giving an example all believers experience that have been exposed to Law through the Spirit.

That is, in our pre-quickened state, we are perfectly satisfied in our own self-righteous, self-centered, self-governed state. Spiritual zombies, so to speak. The Law is what we decide to do - "whatever is right in our own eyes". (For a real world example, interact with some atheists, for a while.)

When the Spirit quickens us, we become aware of the true consequence of our state of sin. It becomes a crime of monumental magnitude against a holy God as opposed to an unfortunate circumstance.

That is the purpose of the Law for the believer - a chastening rod to drive us to understand our helplessness, inability and unrighteousness before our holy God and into the arms of Jesus.

I disagree with you saying that Paul did not know he was dead before conversion. He did know, he was dead when the Law came, but that did not save Him, only let him know he was in need of a Saviour. But there was a time before the "dead", that he was "alive", and that is before the law came. As you say, the Law was always around in Paul's time, so He had to mean something else when he said he was alive without the Law. He was alive without the Law, when he was a child, before the age of accountability, when the Law entered him and taught him what sin is. The same as you and I. He said, I had not known sin, except the Law said, Thou shalt not Covet.
I didn't either and neither did you or anyone else, until they come to know to do good and did it not. Hence, "the soul that sinneth, shall die".

Did Paul "die" while he was a Christian or before??

BBob,

 

[Brother Bob]

yes...God knows all things and this includes our death.

This is the weakness of the freewill view. God knows all people.
When the Bibel says..""For whom He FOREKNEW He also predestined..."...God knows all people. Did God predestine all people to heaven? No one would say this.

What did He predestinate them to?

I believe it was to be conformed unto the image of His Son. He foreknew who would believe and predestinated them to be conformed to the image of His son.

So foreknew must mean more then just knowing about people and what they do.

******

The "time thing" applies to both God and man. God is not limited to time, which means God will never end. It also could mean, but would not hurt if it did not include that God was before time. Saying God is timeless does not mean God does not use time. This use of time by God is not just limited to telling us when something happened.

He uses time for man. He created time for man. The Sun rules the day and the moon the night. All for men, He didn't need any of them.

Time was part of creation. Before the world was, there was no time. When God chose He chose before time was. This does not mean it is the same as choosing today at noon. It means before creation God chose. Sense creation because God works in creation, saving lost sinners and other things, God also works in time. This does not limit God. Time exist because God made it, and God using it. Time is Good. At some point time will stop. God will not stop, God goes on forever.

I believe it says before the foundation of the World. I have chosen you out of the World.


Christ said he would come back someday. That is a time factor. It is not now that Christ is back. It was not in the past. God said it and He means it. It is based on time. And for God to use time limits him in no way.

You know that He already knew, when He was coming back. Someday, was for man.

Why would He tell Himself "someday"?


BBob,

 

[jdlongmire]

You must remember with whom you are dealing with. This is a man that illuminates scripture. Not everybody is an illuminator like jdlongmire! We should all be impressed and seek to become illuminators like this esteemed man. :laugh:

Cutter, this will probably be the last time I respond to you, lest you become wise in your own eyes, but, to respond to your baseless assertion, I am not claiming some sort of special knowledge. I am saying, however, that we each bring a presupposition of interpretation to our individual reading of God's word. If we are not careful, we begin to believe that we, individually, are the arbiters of truth.

When I said I was illuminating that passage of Scripture, I mean "shed light" on it for you, since it is clearly differentiating the ungodly men set for judgment and destruction and the beloved, for whom God has patiently delayed His just judgment of Mankind, so that all His beloved will will be saved.

For your part, instead of a reasoned rebuttal, you have become a mocker, so unless you reign in your foolishness and begin interacting in a manner that reveals a willingness to dialogue, we are through here.

 

[jdlongmire]

I disagree with you saying that Paul did not know he was dead before conversion. He did know, he was dead when the Law came, but that did not save Him, only let him know he was in need of a Saviour. But there was a time before the "dead", that he was "alive", and that is before the law came. As you say, the Law was always around in Paul's time, so He had to mean something else when he said he was alive without the Law. He was alive without the Law, when he was a child, before the age of accountability, when the Law entered him and taught him what sin is. The same as you and I. He said, I had not known sin, except the Law said, Thou shalt not Covet.
I didn't either and neither did you or anyone else, until they come to know to do good and did it not. Hence, "the soul that sinneth, shall die".

Did Paul "die" while he was a Christian or before??

BBob,

BBob - Saul was convinced he was alive and walking righteous in the Law, Paul came to understand that Saul was a walking dead man.

 

[Brother Bob]

BBob - Saul was convinced he was alive and walking righteous in the Law, Paul came to understand that Saul was a walking dead man.

Before becoming a Christian, right?? Paul was speaking of himself as a person, neither Saul or Paul, but as a human being.
When the commandments came and he died, was he a Christian or was it before becoming a Christian?

On my way to Church, have a good day and I will look at the board when I get back.

God Bless,

BBob,

 

[Cutter]

Cutter, this will probably be the last time I respond to you, lest you become wise in your own eyes

Hey, I'm not the one that said I illuminated scripture, that was you.

I am saying, however, that we each bring a presupposition of interpretation to our individual reading of God's word.

"But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things..." Try the Biblical approach, my friend. Then there will be no need for your attempts to illuminate scripture.

When I said I was illuminating that passage of Scripture, I mean "shed light" on it for you, since it is clearly differentiating the ungodly men set for judgment and destruction and the beloved, for whom God has patiently delayed His just judgment of Mankind, so that all His beloved will will be saved.

It is not clear! That is what you want it to say, therefore you had to add your words to make it come out the way you want it to. And please do not try to do me any favors by seeking to shed light on something for me. You must have great confidence in your illumination skills. I do not!

For your part, instead of a reasoned rebuttal, you have become a mocker

Get your self right first, then maybe what you say to others will be taken seriously! :thumbs:

 

[jdlongmire]

Before becoming a Christian, right?? Paul was speaking of himself as a person, neither Saul or Paul, but as a human being.
When the commandments came and he died, was he a Christian or was it before becoming a Christian?

He was spiritually dead before becoming a Christian, he just didn't know it, only when he became alive in Christ was he able to see it.

On my way to Church, have a good day and I will look at the board when I get back.

God Bless,

BBob,

Me, too - blessings!