No Faith until Salvation?

[ituttut]

Originally posted by Brother Bob:
I keep hearing there is no faith until you have salvation, even in our churches and in other denominations. How can you come to God unless you believe there is a God?

Romans, chapter 12


"3": For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

Hello Brother Bob. It looks to me you are mixing and trying to match different faiths. You start with “salvation” faith and now come back with “gift” faith. Your woman with the “issue of blood” tells of her faith, and that faith made her whole, but it did not and cannot save her. It is only the faith of Jesus Christ that saves us and it is through His faith that we are saved.

Before the gospel of through faith, all came in that other gospel of by faith.

We are not to think of ourselves more highly than he ought to think. The Holy Spirit of God is the giver of gifts, and by the grace of God the Father that comes to we today through Christ Jesus His only begotten Son are we saved. It is God, the Holy Trinity involved in our salvation.

Christian faith, ituttut

 

[Brother Bob]

Ituttut:

What do you think the woman had faith in if not Jesus Christ, that is who she went to isn't it?
That is just one example there are several and I believed she was saved and I like to know how you know she was not. What other purpose would Jesus had in saying "thy faith hath made thee whole". In another case, the man left rejoicing and praising the name of Jesus Christ. People read things into the Scripture that is just not there.
Also, the Lord said I felt "virtue" go out of me, which is cleansing power, not healing power. Man, I had a hard time getting the name right

 

[ituttut]

Originally posted by Salamander:
The measure of faith is the seed of faith given to every man. Men will reject God and deny Him, that is what makes them foolish considering the wonder of creation. It actually takes more to deny God than to believe in God, bnecause that seed of the measure of faith is then smothered by the audacity to deny that life began beyond nature, due to the fact that nature had to begin also.

Every man has the responsibility to excersize that measure of faith, and he will in some sort to exert his beliefs in any chosen direction: either he will seek the face of God after the convicting of his heart for sin according to the Word of God, or else he will seek truth in religion. Evolution is a theory, yet a religion, just as atheism is also a religion.

I've had Calvinists make the same arguement that Romans 12:3 isn't saying that "every man" means EVERY MAN, but that is the lunacy of Calvinism.

It seems you and Brother Bob are coming from the same direction. Correct me if I’m wrong, but I believe you are using such as the “mustard seed” in Matthew 17: 20, which is not of salvation but of the Power of God, The Holy Spirit. God has already chosen these and the question is now not of their salvation, but of their faith in the power of God.

This started off of salvation “faith” and when we do not correctly divide His Word we wind up in these conflictions produced by man.

Romans 3:27-30, ”Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. 28. Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. 29. Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also: 30. Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith. .”

Some of what you and Brother Bob say sounds good, but it is also dangerous for when you look at it you are saying your salvation is of “works” when you say we have a “responsibility”. If I fail in my responsibility will Christ say “I take it all back, and my blood was just not good enough for you, and you remain in your sins”.

We are not obligated to do anything according to Christ from heaven. We today are to listen to His voice to us in scripture as He speaks from heaven for we are of the heavenlies, and not this earth. Jesus no longer walks and talks on this earth. God today does not ask us to make a “covenant” with Him as He did His People. He places us in the New Covenant through faith.

Christian faith, ituttut

 

[Brother Bob]

Ituttut:
In the following Scripture you will find that you are saved by Grace but through faith. The faith has to lead you to the Grace . Simple as that. Be sure to read the bottom of this post.
Ephesians, chapter 2

5": Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved

"6": And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

"7": That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

"8": For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

"9": Not of works, lest any man should boast.

"10": For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.


KJMatt.15
"22": And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou Son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.

"23": But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.

"24": But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

"25": Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.

"26": But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs.

"27": And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table.

"28": Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.


Luke, chapter 18
35": And it came to pass, that as he was come nigh unto Jericho, a certain blind man sat by the way side begging:

"36": And hearing the multitude pass by, he asked what it meant.

"37": And they told him, that Jesus of Nazareth passeth by.

"38": And he cried, saying, Jesus, thou Son of David, have mercy on me.

"39": And they which went before rebuked him, that he should hold his peace: but he cried so much the more, Thou Son of David, have mercy on me.

"40": And Jesus stood, and commanded him to be brought unto him: and when he was come near, he asked him,

"41": Saying, What wilt thou that I shall do unto thee? And he said, Lord, that I may receive my sight.

"42": And Jesus said unto him, Receive thy sight: thy faith hath saved thee .

Seems to me this man for sure got both, (healing and saved).

[ March 25, 2006, 09:40 PM: Message edited by: Brother Bob ]

 

[Brother Bob]

Ituttut:
I certainly disagree with you that man don't have to do anything. Faith without works is dead. In the above post if the man had not of cried out "Jesus, thou Son of David, have mercy on me, he would still be in his sins. Now I know all about the Scripture "by Grace are ye saved, not of works least any man should boast. Works won't save you but if you are ashamed to confess Jesus before this sinful and adultous generation, He will be ashamed to confess you before His Father, and His Holy angels. We have to do something called repentance. You can call it works or not but it will lead you to the feet of Jesus, Who will do the saving. Even you just posted that He places us through Faith . The Faith came first before the placement. Amen.

 

[OldRegular]

Brother Bob

Ephesians 2:1-6
1. And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2. Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3. Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4. But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5. Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
6. And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

Note that verse 5 tells us that
1. when we were dead in sins, that is spiritually dead just as Adam was after the fall, and
2. when, according to verses 2 and 3, we walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
3. God made us spiritually alive.

Colossians 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

1. When we were dead in sin
2. God made us alive.

Note that in neither of the passages above does it indicate that any action on man's part is required. Ephesians 2:8 tells us that after God made us spiritually alive He gave us the faith by which we believe.

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

 

[Calvibaptist]

Originally posted by Brother Bob:
What Bible are you using, seems we are using different Bibles? The KJV says : every (man) the measure of faith, and Paul says what he had preached to the Jews and the Greek he now was preaching unto them.

I typically use the NKJV, but usually check the KJV, NAS, NIV, NKJV, ESV, and the Greek. However, let's for the sake of argument, use the KJV.

Romans 12:1 - I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your reasonable service.

This passage is addressed to "brethren." I assume you understand that it is written to believers, for only believers can do what it says in the verses that follow. Only believers can present their bodies as a living sacrifice. An unbeliever has no desire and no ability to do that.

Romans 12:2 - And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.

Only believers can be transformed by the renewing of their mind.

Romans 12:3 - For I say, through the grace given to me, to everyone who is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think soberly, as God has dealt to each one a measure of faith.

Now, pay attention. Paul says something to "everyone who is among you." That everyone who is among you is the believers in the church that Paul has said he is writing to in chapter 1 and that he has just addressed in verse 1 (two verses ago) in this chapter.

At the end of this verse (only 22 words away), he uses the phrase "each one." This "each one" is already described in the first half of the verse as "everyone who is among you." It is not a general each one in the entire world. It is the same group that is at the beginning of the verse, the same group at the beginning of the chapter, and the same group at the beginning of the letter.

Here is an example:

Everone in this discussion is getting a little too heated at times. So, we want everone to calm down a little and use the patience and love that God has given to everyone.

The second two "everyones" are not universal everyones. They are limited by the first "everyone" to only the people in this discussion, but every person in that group.

 

[Brother Bob]

OldRegular:
(quote)

Ephesians 2:1-6
1. And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; 2. Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3. Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4. But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5. Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
6. And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

Of course we were dead in sin when he saved us. The Commandments can't save you and faith leads you to Christ but still takes His Grace to save us. Even if we quit sinning, we have all the old sins still against us and it takes His blood to cleanse them from us. I am not saying our faith save us, just leads us to Salvation and I think I have quoted Scripture after Scripture that shows the sinner is being taught that he is lost by "Grace of God, which bringeth Salvation" .

You have to take heed to the low still voice within you and believe that voice.

 

[Brother Bob]

CalvinBaptist:
Yea, but between those verses you quoted he also said he was going to preach to them what he had already preached to the Jews and Greek. I respectfully disagree with you CB, I think he was saying to the particular ones (not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think soberly)

 

[Brother Bob]

OldRegular:
I hope you don't think that I was saying our faith is what saves us for (Salvation is of the Lord). I am saying if we don't move out on that faith and accept Christ that we will die in our sins and where He is we cannot come.

 

[Calvibaptist]

Originally posted by Brother Bob:
CalvinBaptist:
Yea, but between those verses you quoted he also said he was going to preach to them what he had already preached to the Jews and Greek. I respectfully disagree with you CB, I think he was saying to the particular ones (not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think soberly)

NO. He told the church he was ready to come to Rome to preach the gospel in Rome. He didn't say that chapters 2-11 were for unbelievers to read. He was detailing for the church of Rome (whom he had never met) what HIS MESSAGE was going to be when he got their to preach the gospel.

The verses I quoted for you in chapter 12 had nothing in between them. He beseeches the brethren. He tells any among them to be humble as God has given to each one a measure of faith. How can you not see the limit on the "each one" at the end as being the group of brethren among them?

 

[Brother Bob]

CalviBaptist:

I was wrong about the Jews and Greeks. Forgive, for I got 2 different posts mixed up. You are right about, He was talking to a particular group, but I still think he was talking to "all men" and was telling this particular group to (not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think soberly).

Did you know you were a sinner and was lost before you came to Christ?

 

[Calvibaptist]

Originally posted by Brother Bob:
Did you know you were a sinner and was lost before you came to Christ?

Honestly, I don't know exactly when I came to Christ. I went to a Baptist school from 1st grade on. I have been in a good Bible-teaching church since 4th grade. I was baptized in 5th grade. I'm not really sure when I came to Christ.

But, I assume that someone told me, using the Bible, that I was a sinner and lost before I came. My response of "coming" would have been what I believe the Bible calls faith. I believe that somewhere in that process (in between hearing I was a sinner and my response) God regenerated me so that I could respond in faith. At that point I was saved (justified). I believe that not because I remember the experience, but because I see that is what the Bible teaches.

 

[Calvibaptist]

Originally posted by Brother Bob:
[QB] CalviBaptist:

You are right about, He was talking to a particular group, but I still think he was talking to "all men" and was telling this particular group to (not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think soberly).

Please don't take what I say here wrongly. If you see that he is talking to a particular group and that 22 words away, in the same context, he uses basically the same phrase, YET you want to interpret this universally, that is bad interpretation. Words have meaning in context. If the context is a smaller group than the universal "all", then the all in that context would be the all of that group.

 

[Brother Bob]

Calvibaptist:
You know our experiences are really different from each other. I was raised and still believe that children are already God's children. We will not baptize a child. I was 32 years when I had a massive heart attack and given up for dead but I prayed hard for the Lord to save my dying soul. If it was his will that I natural die let it be but save my soul. That was when He came into my life was after I invited Him in. He always stood at the door of my heart but I loved darkness rather than light but believe me when you are dying you really become serious and put priorties in order in a hurry. Since then I have had 2 open heart surgeries and 2 neck artery surgeries and other but you get the point. The Lord sure has been good to me. I am like Hezekiah, I cried mightly unto the Lord and He heard my cries. Don't know if I am supposed to testify on here or not but I just did. Amen

 

[Brother Bob]

Calvibaptist: quote

Honestly, I don't know exactly when I came to Christ. I went to a Baptist school from 1st grade on. I have been in a good Bible-teaching church since 4th grade. I was baptized in 5th grade. I'm not really sure when I came to Christ.

But, I assume that someone told me, using the Bible, that I was a sinner and lost before I came. My response of "coming" would have been what I believe the Bible calls faith. I believe that somewhere in that process (in between hearing I was a sinner and my response) God regenerated me so that I could respond in faith. At that point I was saved (justified). I believe that not because I remember the experience, but because I see that is what the Bible teaches.

Seems to me you think you must of moved out on faith, but you are just not sure. I don't want to say anything to hurt you, but we believe a person must know he is a sinner before he can repent.

 

[Calvibaptist]

Don't be afraid to testify, Bob. I am not a heartless calvinist! I love to hear what God has done to bring people to Himself.

 

[J.D.]

There is a difference between saving faith and natural faith.

Do all men have saving faith?

Where does saving faith come from?

"when the son of man cometh will he find faith on earth?"

2 Thessalonians 3:2 And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all [men] have not faith.

"...perverse and faithless generation"

"Who hath believed our report?"

NOT ALL MEN HAVE FAITH.

But of those that do, where did they get it?

(KJV) 2 Peter 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

NOTICE THEY "OBTAINED" FAITH.

2 Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,
3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that [pertain] unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:

THINGS THAT WERE "GIVEN" - all things that pertain unto life and godliness.

4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

MORE "GIVEN" THINGS - great and precious promises

5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; 6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; 7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.

"Add to your faith", the faith that was obtained in verse 1.

8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make [you that ye shall] neither [be] barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

These thing make you fruitful.

9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. 10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

"ye shall never fall" - to make one's calling and election sure is to walk in confidence and assurance of the blessings of the gospel and its salvation.

11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

"an entrance shall be ministered unto you" - something given again.

So we see that the whole plan of salvation, from generation to glorification, is the work of God, and not of man.

"for ye are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus..."

"for it is God that worketh in you both to do and to will of his good pleasure"

There is nothing in natural man, either of works or faith, whereby he might boast against God.

 

[Brother Bob]

Man was created to give God Glory and Honor. Did he do it, and why not if it was God's will?

Virtue is to be cleansed, is that after you are saved?

Knowledge is The fear of God is the beginning of wisdom and departing from evil is understanding. Is this after you are saved?

Last one is Charity which is the Love of God, you get that after you are saved?

Please explain this Scripture.

Luke, chapter 18

35": And it came to pass, that as he was come nigh unto Jericho, a certain blind man sat by the way side begging:

"36": And hearing the multitude pass by, he asked what it meant.

"37": And they told him, that Jesus of Nazareth passeth by.

"38": And he cried, saying, Jesus, thou Son of David, have mercy on me.

"39": And they which went before rebuked him, that he should hold his peace: but he cried so much the more, Thou Son of David, have mercy on me.

"40": And Jesus stood, and commanded him to be brought unto him: and when he was come near, he asked him,

"41": Saying, What wilt thou that I shall do unto thee? And he said, Lord, that I may receive my sight.

"42": And Jesus said unto him, Receive thy sight: thy faith hath saved thee.
"43": And immediately he received his sight, and followed him, glorifying God: and all the people, when they saw it, gave praise unto God

 

[Calvibaptist]

Originally posted by Brother Bob:
[QB] Man was created to give God Glory and Honor. Did he do it, and why not if it was God's will?

Virtue is to be cleansed, is that after you are saved?

Knowledge is The fear of God is the beginning of wisdom and departing from evil is understanding. Is this after you are saved?

Last one is Charity which is the Love of God, you get that after you are saved?

Technically, we (and the Bible) would say it is immediately after you are regenerated. These things you mention - fear of God, departing from evil, love of God - are all different phrases to describe true faith. Faith is the gift of God he gives to those He has regenerated in order that they might be saved.

Please explain this Scripture.

Luke, chapter 18

35": And it came to pass, that as he was come nigh unto Jericho, a certain blind man sat by the way side begging:

"36": And hearing the multitude pass by, he asked what it meant.

"37": And they told him, that Jesus of Nazareth passeth by.

"38": And he cried, saying, Jesus, thou Son of David, have mercy on me.

"39": And they which went before rebuked him, that he should hold his peace: but he cried so much the more, Thou Son of David, have mercy on me.

"40": And Jesus stood, and commanded him to be brought unto him: and when he was come near, he asked him,

"41": Saying, What wilt thou that I shall do unto thee? And he said, Lord, that I may receive my sight.

"42": And Jesus said unto him, Receive thy sight: thy faith hath saved thee.
"43": And immediately he received his sight, and followed him, glorifying God: and all the people, when they saw it, gave praise unto God

This man came face to face with the Living Word. The Holy Spirit regenerated him and he believed. His faith saved him.

It is important to understand that theologians of both the calvinistic and non-calvinistic stripe do not equate the terms regeneration with salvation. Regeneration is part of salvation, but not the entirety. It is either the producer of faith (as calvinists believe) or it is the product of faith (as non-calvinists believe). By salvation (by faith), most people mean justification. Regeneration is not justification.