No Faith until Salvation?

[Brother Bob]

Calvibaptist, Ed:

BY GRACE THROUGH FAITH ARE YE SAVED!!!

And Calvibaptist it does say you go through faith and it does not say you go through Grace.

When I say you are saved by Grace, I am saying that by the Love of God did He send His son to die for my sins and yours and Salvation is of the Lord, which is Grace. But you cannot please God without faith and if you don't please God you will never be saved.

Why? Would it be a problem to say "It takes faith to be saved" or to say it takes "Grace" to be saved. SURE IS SIMPLE TO ME.

If that is not simple enough I don't know what is. I think a little child could understand it.

 

[Brother Bob]

Calvibaptist:
I would never question your Salvation and I am sorry if you think I did. I only explained to you what we believe and practice.

When it comes to "Salvation" faith and Grace go hand in hand.

By Grace through faith are ye saved.

To say through faith are you saved, you could use the above Scripture.

To say by Grace are you saved, you could use the above Scripture.

ED THAT IS WHAT I AM SAYING, DO YOU UNDERSTAND NOW!!!

[ March 27, 2006, 09:38 AM: Message edited by: Brother Bob ]

 

[Helen]

Perhaps to be clear, "Salvation is by the grace of God through the avenue of faith"?

I remember reading, "I believe; help Thou mine unbelief!"

It was from an unbeliever in terms of salvation.
It shows that the initial faith is of the person.
It acknowledged that this is not enough faith, but that the want of faith can also originate with the person.

"Ask, and ye shall receive." Maybe our initial faith/belief is just a faint track through the forest of our lives. But all we have to do is ask God, and He will turn it into the avenue through which His grace will supply our salvation.

The wanting is free. The asking is free.

It can also be humiliating, and most people won't do it for that reason. It is an admission of one's own insecurities and fears, and most people will hide those away deep, deep in side and rarely even acknowledge their existence.

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by Calvibaptist:
[QB] Actually, you have to go by grace, through faith to even get to salvation. You don't go through faith to get to grace. Grace is totally up to God.

The scripture teach that "OUR FAITH" ("Belief") in Jesus is why God saves, and "Unbelief" is why God condemns.

And if "predestination" is a "FACT", then its also a "FACT", according to scripture, that God is also a LAIR.

Eze 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

As I live, saith the Lord GOD, is God's "OATH" against the doctrine of "predestination".

"OUR BELIEF" is the basis for God's justifying/Condemning, just as scripture teaches, and no amount of scripture twisting can change that.

Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, BECAUSE he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

We're all under condemnation,

but "HE THAT BELIEVETH" is not condemned

and why is the next condemned,

BECAUSE "HE" hath not believed,

The "HE" makes man responsible for his "BELIEF", one way or the other.

"Predestination" attempts to lay the blame at God's door step for people going to hell, not giving them the faith they need to be saved, but does the scripture teach that,

NO, Jesus died for the sin of the "Whole world" that the whole world, "MIGHT BE" saved,

and "WE CHOSE" which "master" we want to serve.

Ro 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Calvin doctrine actually makes God out to be a lair in several areas, limited atonement is number one.


1Jo 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

 

[EdSutton]

Originally posted by Hope of Glory:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> I think you get my point. You can't dogmatically say that because there is or is not a definite article in the Greek that it is or is not referring to "faith" or "the faith."

I personally think the Holy Spirit was quite capable of putting exactly what he meant. But, men, being men, thought they could "improve" or "clarify" exactly what was said much better than the Holy Spirit could. </font>[/QUOTE]Well said, there Doctor! I agree. I would suggest that a companion verse to this would be Hebrews 11:1, wherere the definite article does not appear in conjunction with 'faith', as far as I can tell, for it give a 'general' definition of 'faith', as opposed to describing a 'particular', as in II Thess. 3:1-2.
Ed

 

[Brother Bob]

Thanks Helen:
I think you said it better than I did or at least more easier understood.

 

[EdSutton]

Originally posted by Me4Him:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Calvibaptist:
[QB] Actually, you have to go by grace, through faith to even get to salvation. You don't go through faith to get to grace. Grace is totally up to God.

The scripture teach that "OUR FAITH" ("Belief") in Jesus is why God saves, and "Unbelief" is why God condemns.

And if "predestination" is a "FACT", then its also a "FACT", according to scripture, that God is also a LAIR[sic].

Eze 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

As I live, saith the Lord GOD, is God's "OATH" against the doctrine of "predestination".

"OUR BELIEF" is the basis for God's justifying/Condemning, just as scripture teaches, and no amount of scripture twisting can change that.

Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, BECAUSE he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

We're all under condemnation,

but "HE THAT BELIEVETH" is not condemned

and why is the next condemned,

BECAUSE "HE" hath not believed,

The "HE" makes man responsible for his "BELIEF", one way or the other.

"Predestination" attempts to lay the blame at God's door step for people going to hell, not giving them the faith they need to be saved, but does the scripture teach that,

NO, Jesus died for the sin of the "Whole world" that the whole world, "MIGHT BE" saved,

and "WE CHOSE" which "master" we want to serve.

Ro 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Calvin doctrine [sic] actually makes God out to be a lair [sic] in several areas, limited atonement is number one.


1Jo 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. </font>[/QUOTE]Although overall, I would tend to agree with this, I would suggest that the "LAIR" of God is "in the heavenlies". And that God is not a "liar", is what you really mean. Actually, maybe I don't agree as much as I originally said.

I fully agree that the point of "believe" and "believe not" is absolutely the basis for "condemned/not condemned" as you stated.

However, I also believe that this "belief" does not automatically equal "and "WE CHOSE" [you mean choose -LC] which "master" we want to serve". There is a great difference between "come" to God for the free gift of salvation, and "follow", as a 'disciple', or 'serve', once we have received this gift that is "Absolutely FREE!" ©, vs. this 'following' that can and may well cost one everything.

I submit that this failure to differentiate, is one of the biggest hindrances and sources of confusion in our churches, today. And it is, in fact, "another gospel". I have often remarked that my favorite Biblical character is Lot. To my knowledge, he is the only person in Scripture, specifically indentified with "godly", although Paul said his 'jealously' over the Corinthian chuech was a "godly jealousy". And I believe he is one of only ten individuals, including the Lord Jesus Christ, called 'righteous' or 'just', specifically, in Scripture, as well. And he is called this three times, which means he is called 'righteous' three times as often as any other. Romans tells us that we stand righteous before God on the basis of faith apart from works. [Romans 3:1-4:25] James 2 tells us that "you see" that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. An individual may have the lousiest testimony in the world, as did "Mr. Mayor", who incidentally, was a 'believer' before Uncle Abraham, and for "God looks not as man looks...", and be righteous in the sight of God. Read the texts, folks. Abraham had done about everything one could do to present himself acceptable to God, before Gen.15:6, where he believed God. He had even called him 'Master', "Adonai Yahweh" or Lord, in Gen. 15:2, and was still trying to get right, and bargain his way with God. THEN, Scripture says, [Abraham] believed in the LORD, and HE counted it unto him for righteousness." It would be some twenty-five to thirty years, before Ol' Abe would show this before man, on Mt. Moriah. and the Scripture would then be 'fulfilled'. [James 2; Gen.22].

Well, it looks like I might have gotten off track, a bit, but this needed to be said, IMO, in the context of what we were discussing.

In His grace,
Ed

 

[Calvibaptist]

Originally posted by Hope of Glory:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> I think you get my point. You can't dogmatically say that because there is or is not a definite article in the Greek that it is or is not referring to "faith" or "the faith."

I personally think the Holy Spirit was quite capable of putting exactly what he meant. But, men, being men, thought they could "improve" or "clarify" exactly what was said much better than the Holy Spirit could. </font>[/QUOTE]Did you not read my post or all the verses? Would you translate each of those verses "the faith?" I think not. The point is that the definite article in Greek does not necessarily translate to the word "the" in English. It doesn't perform the exact same function. It makes the noun definite. That is all it does. He pistis could be translated "faith" OR "the faith." But it could not be translated "a faith." It does not have to have the word "the" in the translation.

I also think the Holy Spirit knew koine Greek, which you don't seem to.

 

[Calvibaptist]

Originally posted by Brother Bob:
[QB] Calvibaptist, Ed:

BY GRACE THROUGH FAITH ARE YE SAVED!!!

And Calvibaptist it does say you go through faith and it does not say you go through Grace.

I have no problem with everything you said in this post. I have a problem with what you said in a previous post, though.

Of course you are saved by grace. Of course you are saved through faith. Of course you go through faith to get to salvation, if by that you mean justification.

But what you said in a previous post was that you had to go through faith to even get to GRACE. That is unbiblical. Grace is not earned or cause by anything but God.

 

[Calvibaptist]

Originally posted by Me4Him:
And if "predestination" is a "FACT", then its also a "FACT", according to scripture, that God is also a LAIR.

I got bad news for you Me4Him, but the word predestination and the concept of God determining beforehand who would be saved is in the Bible. You just want to re-interpret it to say that John Calvin invented the word.

The "HE" makes man responsible for his "BELIEF", one way or the other.

"Predestination" attempts to lay the blame at God's door step for people going to hell, not giving them the faith they need to be saved, but does the scripture teach that,

1. Of course people are justified by faith and condemned for unbelief. That is what Calvinists believe the Bible teaches.

2. Predestination (as taught in the Bible and by Calvin) does not lay the blame at God's door step for people going to hell. It lays the blame at the door step of the people who refused to believe. That is what Calvinists believe the Bible teaches. You have been told this before, so I either have to believe that you are not paying attention, you are an imbecile, or you are purposely misrepresenting our view.

3. Calvinism and the Bible gives God all the glory for every aspect of salvation, even a person's faith. No one can stand up and say that they were smarter or more trusting than anyone else. God did it, and God alone.

NO, Jesus died for the sin of the "Whole world" that the whole world, "MIGHT BE" saved,

If Jesus died for the sin of the whole world, and whole world means every person who ever lived, then Jesus is the biggest failure who ever lived.

If Jesus died for the sin of the whole world, and whole world means Jew and Gentile alike, then Jesus gets exactly what He died for.

and "WE CHOSE" which "master" we want to serve.

Believe it or not, I don't really have a problem with this statement!

Ro 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Passage written to believers.

Calvin doctrine actually makes God out to be a lair in several areas, limited atonement is number one.

You limit the power of the atonement by saying it didn't actually atone for anything. It is only a possible atonement. It only atones when we add our faith. In other words, we save ourselves.

1Jo 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

1. Propitiation means "satisfaction." If God is satisfied in the payment for the sins of everyone who has ever lived, why do some still go to hell?

2. Propitiation does NOT mean "possible satisfaction."

3. Propitiation is a technical term and can only mean one thing.

4. "Whole world" could mean any number of things because it is a unqualified, universal statement. It could mean the entire system that sets itself up against God. It could mean every person who has ever lived. It could mean people from every race. It could mean Jew and Gentile alike. The last two options are the only ones that make sense of the verse.

 

[Brother Bob]

Calvibaptist:

quote by: (Brother Bob)
BY GRACE THROUGH FAITH ARE YE SAVED!!!

And Calvibaptist it does say you go through faith and it does not say you go through Grace.

When I say you are saved by Grace, I am saying that by the Love of God did He send His son to die for my sins and yours and Salvation is of the Lord, which is Grace. But you cannot please God without faith and if you don't please God you will never be saved.

Why? Would it be a problem to say "It takes faith to be saved" or to say it takes "Grace" to be saved. SURE IS SIMPLE TO ME.

If that is not simple enough I don't know what is. I think a little child could understand it.

answer by Calvibaptist:

I have no problem with everything you said in this post. I have a problem with what you said in a previous post, though.

Of course you are saved by grace. Of course you are saved through faith. Of course you go through faith to get to salvation, if by that you mean justification.

But what you said in a previous post was that you had to go through faith to even get to GRACE. That is unbiblical. Grace is not earned or cause by anything but God.

I could try to explain the post before that you are talking about but we would start going around again. I think we should quit on an agreement between us.
Except this is a bad choice of words but guess I am guilty too according to your quote:

You limit the power of the atonement by saying it didn't actually atone for anything. It is only a possible atonement. It only atones when we add our faith. In other words, (we save ourselves)

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by Calvibaptist:
Originally posted by Me4Him:
And if "predestination" is a "FACT", then its also a "FACT", according to scripture, that God is also a LAIR.

I got bad news for you Me4Him, but the word predestination and the concept of God determining beforehand who would be saved is in the Bible. You just want to re-interpret it to say that John Calvin invented the word.

God took an "OATH", "AS I LIVE", it wasn't his "WILL" for Israel to perish, matching his other stated will that it wasn't for any to perish, that put everyone on "equal footing" to obtain salvation, if they don't, it's not because God didn't give them the faith they needed to believe, but because "THEIR FAITH" was lacking,

God doesn't give faith (regenerate) to make a person believe to be saved, but saves because of "THEIR FAITH".

When God takes an oath it's not his will for any to perish, and you say "it is" because they wasn't "CHOSEN" from the foundation of the world, your doctrine accuses God of lying, so who's wrong, God or your doctrine???

I know you don't "SEE" this, that's why I'm shining a little light in the darkness.

The "HE" makes man responsible for his "BELIEF", one way or the other.

"Predestination" attempts to lay the blame at God's door step for people going to hell, not giving them the faith they need to be saved, but does the scripture teach that,

1. Of course people are justified by faith and condemned for unbelief. That is what Calvinists believe the Bible teaches.

2. Predestination (as taught in the Bible and by Calvin) does not lay the blame at God's door step for people going to hell. It lays the blame at the door step of the people who refused to believe. That is what Calvinists believe the Bible teaches. You have been told this before, so I either have to believe that you are not paying attention, you are an imbecile, or you are purposely misrepresenting our view.

Believing in God, (there is a God) won't save you, believing in Jesus will, but you have to go through believing in Jesus before God will save.

Faith is not a works, as calvinist claim, works are "physical", Faith is "Spiritual"

3. Calvinism and the Bible gives God all the glory for every aspect of salvation, even a person's faith. No one can stand up and say that they were smarter or more trusting than anyone else. God did it, and God alone.

And that's where calvin is wrong, "THY FAITH" didn't heal the sick, "THY FAITH" only "justified" God to heal them, and "THY FAITH" in Jesus "JUSTIFIES" God to save.

NO, Jesus died for the sin of the "Whole world" that the whole world, "MIGHT BE" saved,

If Jesus died for the sin of the whole world, and whole world means every person who ever lived, then Jesus is the biggest failure who ever lived.

If Jesus died for the sin of the whole world, and whole world means Jew and Gentile alike, then Jesus gets exactly what He died for.

The "CROSS" was never meant to be used as "justification" to condmen people to hell as Calvin teaches, but as justification to redeem all men, if any go to hell, they have to go "IN SPITE" of the CROSS, not because of it.

and "WE CHOSE" which "master" we want to serve.

Believe it or not, I don't really have a problem with this statement!

Ro 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Passage written to believers.

whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

If I ask you if you wanted the car that ran or the car that wouldn't run, would it be all the same to you??

Calvin doctrine actually makes God out to be a lair in several areas, limited atonement is number one.

You limit the power of the atonement by saying it didn't actually atone for anything. It is only a possible atonement. It only atones when we add our faith. In other words, we save ourselves.

Faith won't pay the wages of sin, many have "FAITH" there is a God, but not in Jesus.

Jesus stands between "FAITH" and "GRACE", you go through him before you get to the grace.

1Jo 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

1. Propitiation means "satisfaction." If God is satisfied in the payment for the sins of everyone who has ever lived, why do some still go to hell?

2. Propitiation does NOT mean "possible satisfaction."

3. Propitiation is a technical term and can only mean one thing.

4. "Whole world" could mean any number of things because it is a unqualified, universal statement. It could mean the entire system that sets itself up against God. It could mean every person who has ever lived. It could mean people from every race. It could mean Jew and Gentile alike. The last two options are the only ones that make sense of the verse.

God is love, and when he said the "WORLD" he meant the whole world, without respect of sinner, and all the scriptures confirm that, even God's oath,

Calvin doctrine denies the love of God toward all men, and that he providing a means for all to be saved,

When God took an oath he wasn't willing for any to priesh, and Jesus dying for all sin,

then someone comes along and says, Yes, God was willing for some to perish, because he didn't chose everyone, they accuse God of lying and being responsible for them perishing.

Calvin's doctrine doesn't match up with the scriptures, period.

[ March 27, 2006, 08:02 PM: Message edited by: Me4Him ]

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by Calvibaptist:
2. Propitiation does NOT mean "possible satisfaction."

3. Propitiation is a technical term and can only mean one thing.

4. "Whole world" could mean any number of things because it is a unqualified, universal statement. It could mean the entire system that sets itself up against God. It could mean every person who has ever lived. It could mean people from every race. It could mean Jew and Gentile alike. The last two options are the only ones that make sense of the verse.

Let me put it in it's "proper perspective".

Other religions, to "Appease" an angry God would "Sacrifice" humans to "atone" for their sins.

God "Sacrificed" "HIMSELF" to "APPEASE" his law of "death for sin" in order that "NO HUMAN" would have to die to appease the law.

That's the "LOVE OF GOD" that calvins doctrine denies.

 

[Calvibaptist]

Me4,

Please understand that I am not trying to convince you of anything. The only reason I respond to your posts is that 1) I cannot allow false teaching to go unchallenged, and 2) I am hoping other people reading this might see the truth of the Scriptures.

 

[Hope of Glory]

Originally posted by Calvibaptist:


I also think the Holy Spirit knew koine Greek, which you don't seem to.

I find it interesting that you, like so many on political forums, stoop to insults when you have no ground on which to stand.

The definite article means that it is referring to something specific, just as "the sin" is referring to something specific.

[Romans 6:22-23; “But now being made free from [the] sin (of lawlessness), and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. For the wages of [the] sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal [aionian] life through Jesus Christ our Lord.”] “Being made free from the sin”. There is the definite article “the” before sin in the Greek. Because of the definite article “the” before the word “sin”, and sin being singular in number, it is the sin of lawlessness because of the context and also because of 1 John 3:4. [Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law; CLV - Everyone *who is doing [the] *sin is doing *lawlessness also, and [the] *sin is *lawlessness.]

Words mean something, I don't care how much a person wants to ignore them.

 

[Calvibaptist]

Originally posted by Hope of Glory:
I find it interesting that you, like so many on political forums, stoop to insults when you have no ground on which to stand.

I was just responding in kind. I meant no insult by it. You posted a sarcastic remark about the Holy Spirit knowing what he meant, so I responded sarcastically that the Holy Spirit also knew the nuances of koine Greek. I'm sorry if I insulted you. I did not mean to. I use sarcasm to prove a point. Sometimes I am too sarcastic for my own good.

The definite article means that it is referring to something specific, just as "the sin" is referring to something specific.

I agree with you, but in English, both "sin" and "the sin" are definite. That is why the definite article in Greek is most of the time left out in the English translation. Hence, "faith" and "the faith" are both appropriate translations of he pistis.

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by EdSutton:

Although overall, I would tend to agree with this, I would suggest that the "LAIR" of God is "in the heavenlies". And that God is not a "liar", is what you really mean. Actually, maybe I don't agree as much as I originally said.

In His grace,
Ed

Calvinist have a serious "Reading Comprehension problem", pointing out their doctrine actually accuses God of lying, helps to focus their attention on "Reading Comprehension".

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by Calvibaptist:
Me4,

Please understand that I am not trying to convince you of anything. The only reason I respond to your posts is that 1) I cannot allow false teaching to go unchallenged, and 2) I am hoping other people reading this might see the truth of the Scriptures.

And I'm showing you that calvin's doctrine describing the plan of salvation is not the same plan described in the scriptures.

Ro 9: 9-18 as interpreted by Calvin is totally out of context with the rest of scripture and the plan of salvation.

Those verse simple warn man that God is not obligated to save any, especially in disobeying, but in spite of man being sinner, God still loved his creation and send Jesus to redeem it from sin, "ALL OF IT".."IF".. they co-operated with his plan, believing in Jesus.

Requiring man to have "FAITH", has a "purpose" in that plan as well, a purpose calvin didn't know or understand, judging from his doctrine.

 

[Hope of Glory]

Originally posted by Calvibaptist:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Hope of Glory:
I find it interesting that you, like so many on political forums, stoop to insults when you have no ground on which to stand.

I was just responding in kind. I meant no insult by it. You posted a sarcastic remark about the Holy Spirit knowing what he meant, so I responded sarcastically that the Holy Spirit also knew the nuances of koine Greek. I'm sorry if I insulted you. I did not mean to. I use sarcasm to prove a point. Sometimes I am too sarcastic for my own good.

The definite article means that it is referring to something specific, just as "the sin" is referring to something specific.

I agree with you, but in English, both "sin" and "the sin" are definite. That is why the definite article in Greek is most of the time left out in the English translation. Hence, "faith" and "the faith" are both appropriate translations of he pistis. </font>[/QUOTE]I wasn't being sarcastic. I was stating a simple fact, in that I believe in the inerrancy of Scripture. When man adds (or subracts) anything, it detracts from the Scriptures.

I don't really care what words are in the English, I'm more concerned with what they are in Scripture. We are to compare Scripture to Scripture. There's a reason that the definite article is there; it's not simply something that is haphazard.

 

[Calvibaptist]

Originally posted by Hope of Glory:
I don't really care what words are in the English, I'm more concerned with what they are in Scripture. We are to compare Scripture to Scripture. There's a reason that the definite article is there; it's not simply something that is haphazard.

And, again, the definite article just makes it definite. You are the one who brought up Young's Literal Translation, focusing on the English translation. I showed multiple verses, where in the Greek there is a definite article and there is no way it could possibly be translated "the faith."

An example is where Jesus told someone, "Your faith has saved you." There is a definite article there. It could not possibly be translated "Your the faith has saved you." Nor could it be referring to a body of beliefs like you claim it has to in the Thessalonians passage which has the same definite article. It is referring to the faith or belief of that person, which is the question of this whole thread. And that is the point I was making with my quote of the passage, "not all have faith."