No limited-atonement here:

[MennoSota]

That's untrue...that's a lie.

You admit your belief is untrue and a lie? Are we making progress...Pilgrim? [emoji41]

 

[MennoSota]

So, was that a "yes" or a "no?"

I sell ice picks for eye gouging at 50% off retail...in case anyone is interested. [emoji43]

 

[utilyan]

I do not believe in universalism. IT would be very nice if everyone received Christ, but the Bible clearly states that some will not.

Calvinist thinks if Jesus died for all its universalism because you got two other ideas at work simultaneously.

They still work with a penal substitution where all God's wrath towards every sin is directed to Jesus Christ, this also opens up once saved always saved, license to sin.


I follow Satisfaction or Victory of Jesus. God was in Jesus, reconciling the world and the charges of sin was dropped.

2 Corinthians 5

19namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.


Where in a penal substitution a forgiveness never even happens.

If you owe me 100$ and your mom pays for it, you weren't forgiven at all, it got paid out.

Under Penal Jesus is paying out, God forgives no one.

 

[Yeshua1]

Calvinist thinks if Jesus died for all its universalism because you got two other ideas at work simultaneously.

They still work with a penal substitution where all God's wrath towards every sin is directed to Jesus Christ, this also opens up once saved always saved, license to sin.


I follow Satisfaction or Victory of Jesus. God was in Jesus, reconciling the world and the charges of sin was dropped.

2 Corinthians 5

19namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.


Where in a penal substitution a forgiveness never even happens.

If you owe me 100$ and your mom pays for it, you weren't forgiven at all, it got paid out.

Under Penal Jesus is paying out, God forgives no one.

Someone had to pay the penalty due God for sin debt, to take on his wrath, its either Jesus or you and me!

 

[Iconoclast]

There is only one way to heaven and that is through the new or everlasting covenant. That, after all, is Paul's point in Romans 9:7-11

For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, 7 nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.”8 That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed. 9 For this is the word of promise: “At this time I will come and Sarah shall have a son.” 10 And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac 11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls)

And again:

Rom 4:1 What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh?2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.

The only way to heaven is through the New Covenant. By the works of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight. That's the Old Covenant. Those who insist on heaven by works are under the Old Covenant.

This is ok, but you are avoiding Heb 2 again .....

 

[utilyan]

Someone had to pay the penalty due God for sin debt, to take on his wrath, its either Jesus or you and me!

I Could absolutely agree with you. All you have to do is convince me God is an IDIOT.

If I thought God was stupid I will believe in penal substitution in seconds.

God about as understanding as a Drunk abusive father or caveman who has to bang on something or make sure something suffers to satisfy his bloodlust.

He's a wife beater. SOMEONE has to pay for his bad day it doesn't matter if its innocent or not.


I could point to my God as a perfect example to follow. But a monster who tortures Jesus? who "glorifies" himself with rape and murder, that ain't God that's Satan.



Rather we say Jesus did such a great job perfect being human that made all of humanity worth it despite the mess it made.

God is left over with GLORIFYING JESUS so much that it spills over the rest of humanity.

That Jesus actually redeems mankind.

 

[MennoSota]

This is ok, but you are avoiding Heb 2 again .....

Can he avoid it if we post it?

Hebrews 2:10-16
[10]God, for whom and through whom everything was made, chose to bring many children into glory. And it was only right that he should make Jesus, through his suffering, a perfect leader, fit to bring them into their salvation.
[11]So now Jesus and the ones he makes holy have the same Father. That is why Jesus is not ashamed to call them his brothers and sisters.
[12]For he said to God, “I will proclaim your name to my brothers and sisters. I will praise you among your assembled people.”
[13]He also said, “I will put my trust in him,” that is, “I and the children God has given me.”
[14]Because God’s children are human beings—made of flesh and blood—the Son also became flesh and blood. For only as a human being could he die, and only by dying could he break the power of the devil, who had the power of death.
[15]Only in this way could he set free all who have lived their lives as slaves to the fear of dying.
[16]We also know that the Son did not come to help angels; he came to help the descendants of Abraham.

 

[AndThisGospel]

Can he avoid it if we post it?

Hebrews 2:10-16.

Hmm? You left verse 9 out. Why?

"But we do see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels for a little while, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone."

 

[AndThisGospel]

So, was that a "yes" or a "no?"

Rom 5:6 For when we were still without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. 7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die; yet perhaps for a good man someone would even dare to die. 8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him. 10 For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. 11 And not only that, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.

 

[MennoSota]

Hmm? You left verse 9 out. Why?

"But we do see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels for a little while, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone."

How does verse 9 change the other verses? Could it...gasp...mean that the everyone is referring...gasp...to the readers of the letter...gasp...and not all humanity...gasp?

Now...interpret the verses that were shared and force them into your theology for us. I'm looking forward to seeing the pretzel you create.

Hebrews 2:10-16
[10]God, for whom and through whom everything was made, chose to bring many children into glory. And it was only right that he should make Jesus, through his suffering, a perfect leader, fit to bring them into their salvation.
[11]So now Jesus and the ones he makes holy have the same Father. That is why Jesus is not ashamed to call them his brothers and sisters.
[12]For he said to God, “I will proclaim your name to my brothers and sisters. I will praise you among your assembled people.”
[13]He also said, “I will put my trust in him,” that is, “I and the children God has given me.”
[14]Because God’s children are human beings—made of flesh and blood—the Son also became flesh and blood. For only as a human being could he die, and only by dying could he break the power of the devil, who had the power of death.
[15]Only in this way could he set free all who have lived their lives as slaves to the fear of dying.
[16]We also know that the Son did not come to help angels; he came to help the descendants of Abraham.

 

[AndThisGospel]

How does verse 9 change the other verses? Could it...gasp...mean that the everyone is referring...gasp...to the readers of the letter...gasp...and not all humanity...gasp?

Yes, it means "everyone"....Christ has saved all men from under the curse. But not all will receive this truth. The latter infers choice and this you can't stand because you don't believe that God allows choice.

That means if you had absolute power we would see the same attributes in you that you place in your god. You would force the consciences of men. You wold be a persecuting power ...

 

[AndThisGospel]

Now what about Gal 5:4?

The "you" are believers who are reverting back to another gospel. What happens? They fall away...they become alienated from Christ. This means just as men can receive Christ they can also reject Him and apostatize.

 

[AndThisGospel]

"He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world."

 

[TCassidy]

Rom 5:6 For when we were still without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. 7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die; yet perhaps for a good man someone would even dare to die. 8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him. 10 For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. 11 And not only that, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.

So, your answer is "yes" you believe the atonement is limited?

 

[MennoSota]

Yes, it means "everyone"....Christ has saved all men from under the curse. But not all will receive this truth. The latter infers choice and this you can't stand because you don't believe that God allows choice.

That means if you had absolute power we would see the same attributes in you that you place in your god. You would force the consciences of men. You wold be a persecuting power ...

Share the rest of the verses in light of your assertion. I look forward to the pretzel you create.
You are a broken record with your assertion, but the context of Hebrews 2 shows you cannot be correct.
So, explain the entire passage. Go verse by verse so we can see how you spin this.

 

[SovereignGrace]

ATG 'like' a post from an RCC. Lullz...


Two of a feather...
Blind leading the blind...

 

[utilyan]

ATG 'like' a post from an RCC. Lullz...


Two of a feather...
Blind leading the blind...

I want to be there judgment day when you got to explain to God, Lord, all these heretics refused to believe that YOU LORD are a vengeful angry chimp who was angry with and tortured Jesus.

Had Jesus taken wrath of God punishment he would still be in hell eternally.

You also would not have a trinity because Christ is then separated from God.



Under penal substitution God the Father FORGIVES absolutely no one.

If you owe me 100$ and someone else pays it, I didn't forgive you at all, it simply got paid.

2 Corinthians 5

18Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation, 19namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.


Notice we are reconciled to God rather then God is reconciled to us. Whereas if there were an appeasement required for God to accept sinners it would be God reconciling himself.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Hmm? You left verse 9 out. Why?

"But we do see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels for a little while, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone."

this is not a Zero Sum game ATG.....but you think it is and when someone points out something of their own beliefs and understanding,you don't get to yell out Heretic. Thats immature. You need to look at the full bible.....and there are times your going to have to agree to disagree.

 

[AndThisGospel]

So, your answer is "yes" you believe the atonement is limited?

Maybe this will help?

"when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son",

 

[AndThisGospel]

You need to look at the full bible.....

I am and you are not...