No man perishes for want of an atonement

[Martin Marprelate]

Thanks for the post Allan. I particularly think this part of the quote brings much clarity to our discussion:

"This doctrine, that the sufferings of Christ amounted to the aggregate sufferings of those who are to be saved, that he endured just so much for so many, is not found in any confession of the Protestant churches. nor in the writings of any standard theologian, nor in the recognised authorities of any church of which we have any knowledge. The whole objection is a gross and inexcusable misrepresentation."

Interesting indeed!

Yes, thank you Allan. Needless to say, I agree absolutely.

Steve

 

[JesusFan]

They're paid for, but the sinner is still in debt? Is God a thief?

No, as the sins for all were laid upon Jesus on Cross, but the means to access that grace and become saved is through Faith alone, and ONLY those whom God elected to be saved will be supplied means to get saved!

 

[Skandelon]

Yes, thank you Allan. Needless to say, I agree absolutely.

You agree that Christ didn't endured just so much for so many? Doesn't that mean you affirm that what Christ did endure satisfied the justice needed for every individual, even if its only applied to those effectually called to come to faith?

 

[Aaron]

No, as the sins for all were laid upon Jesus on Cross, but the means to access that grace and become saved is through Faith alone, and ONLY those whom God elected to be saved will be supplied means to get saved!

Let's see if I have this straight. Joe was on Christ's mind on the Cross. The debt of Joe's sins were paid. Not just Joe's sins in general, but Joe's sins distinctly. Each count. Those days as a teen looking at porn, his fornication throughout college, his love of money—every transgression. Jesus took those very acts upon Himself, and satisfied his debt. But Joe doesn't believe in Christ. So God is going to exact again from Joe what Christ already paid?

 

[Skandelon]

Let's see if I have this straight. Joe was on Christ's mind on the Cross. The debt of Joe's sins were paid. Not just Joe's sins in general, but Joe's sins distinctly. Each count. Those days as a teen looking at porn, his fornication throughout college, his love of money—every transgression. Jesus took those very acts upon Himself, and satisfied his debt. But Joe doesn't believe in Christ. So God is going to exact again from Joe what Christ already paid?

And that is the very view Hodge said this about: "This doctrine, that the sufferings of Christ amounted to the aggregate sufferings of those who are to be saved, that he endured just so much for so many, is not found in any confession of the Protestant churches. nor in the writings of any standard theologian, nor in the recognised authorities of any church of which we have any knowledge. The whole objection is a gross and inexcusable misrepresentation."

 

[Van]

The Calvinist "penal substitution" is simply a stalking horse for "limited atonement." Inexcusable misrepresentation" describes the whole canard.

 

[Skandelon]

Steve, and others, consider this illustration from Hodge for clarity:

"Perhaps this illustration will help. A loving father, seeing his family in peril aboard a sinking vessel, takes a boat out to sea to rescue them. Although the boat is large enough to rescue all aboard the sinking vessel, the father's intention is only to save His family. Yet he is not without compassion for the others, so he offers all safe return to the shore. Failing, however, to recognize their peril, they refuse his offer, so he takes only His family to safety. This illustration is similar to the Calvinist view that Christ's death is sufficient for all, but effective for the elect alone"
​

As you can see, it is still a view of particular redemption that most Calvinists would accept (it is NOT ARMINIAN as I'm being accused of suggesting).

Now, suppose the father intending to save his family alone only took a small boat large enough to carry those in his family and no one else. See the difference?

Now, compare those two illustrations. The first represents Hodge's view (and that of mainstream Calvinists). But there is another view that suggests Christ's blood would not be wasted on the extra space on getting a larger boat. This view suggest that the father intending only to save his family really only "bought" a boat large enough to carry that family, because to buy a bigger boat would represent a waste of Christ's blood which purchased it. They argue, as Aaron just did, that Christ's blood would be wasted if it paid for a non-elect person's sin (i.e. space on the boat).

Now do you see the difference?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

OK Skan when you look at 2 Peter 3:9 ....what do you see? Are we talking all here?

2 Peter 3:9

New International Version (NIV)

9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

 

[Skandelon]

Yes, I believe God is patient with everyone and is not wanting anyone to perish, but all to come to repentance. Is that what you are asking?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

The Calvinist "penal substitution" is simply a stalking horse for "limited atonement." Inexcusable misrepresentation" describes the whole canard.

Van,

Would you say "Canard" has the same weight as "Boon-dongle"?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Yes, I believe God is patient with everyone and is not wanting anyone to perish, but all to come to repentance. Is that what you are asking?

OK well this is how John Owen saw it:

Now , who are these of whom the apostle speaks , to whom he writes ? Such as had received "great and precious promises ," chap.1:4 , whom he calls "beloved," chap. 3:1 ; whom he opposeth to the "scoffers" of the "last days," verse 3; to whom the Lord hath respect in the disposal of these days ; who are said to be "elect," Matt.24:22 . Now , truly, to argue that because God would have none of those to perish , but all of them to come to repentance , therefore he hath the same will and mind towards all and every one in the world ( even those to whom he never makes known his will , nor ever calls to repentance , if they never once hear of his way of salvation ) , comes not much short of extreme madness and folly.

 

[Skandelon]

Ok, but i'm not sure what that has to do with our discussion regarding the atonement.

 

[Aaron]

Let's see if I have this straight. Joe was on Christ's mind on the Cross. The debt of Joe's sins were paid. Not just Joe's sins in general, but Joe's sins distinctly. Each count. Those days as a teen looking at porn, his fornication throughout college, his love of money—every transgression. Jesus took those very acts upon Himself, and satisfied his debt. But Joe doesn't believe in Christ. So God is going to exact again from Joe what Christ already paid?

And that is the very view Hodge said this about: "This doctrine, that the sufferings of Christ amounted to the aggregate sufferings of those who are to be saved, that he endured just so much for so many, is not found in any confession of the Protestant churches. nor in the writings of any standard theologian, nor in the recognised authorities of any church of which we have any knowledge. The whole objection is a gross and inexcusable misrepresentation."

Is that a yes? (Answer yes or answer no, please.)

If the answer is yes, just to be more sure: let's pretend it were possible for Joe to have done just one evil thing his whole life besides disbelieve the Gospel. Let's say he disobeyed his mother. You're saying God has poured out His wrath upon His son for that one act. Justice has been met. That act has been dealt with. It no longer exists.

So, if Joe never comes to faith in Christ, the wrath that He faces, is it for his disbelief only, or is it also for the act of disobedience to his mother?

 

[Van]

Van,

Would you say "Canard" has the same weight as "Boon-dongle"?

No, I think what I said is canard has the same weight as limited atonement.
Boon - dongle has more substance.

 

[Iconoclast]

The Calvinist "penal substitution" is simply a stalking horse for "limited atonement." Inexcusable misrepresentation" describes the whole canard.

:laugh:fiddlesticks:laugh: you once again deny a complete ,full, perfect ,covenant redemption.:laugh:fiddlesticks:applause:

 

[Skandelon]

Originally Posted by Aaron
Let's see if I have this straight. Joe was on Christ's mind on the Cross. The debt of Joe's sins were paid. Not just Joe's sins in general, but Joe's sins distinctly. Each count. Those days as a teen looking at porn, his fornication throughout college, his love of money—every transgression. Jesus took those very acts upon Himself, and satisfied his debt. But Joe doesn't believe in Christ. So God is going to exact again from Joe what Christ already paid? Is that a yes? (Answer yes or answer no, please.)

No. Christ satisfied the demands of the law once and for all, so Joe would not be perishing for lying (disobeying a command of the law). He perishes, as Paul says, "because he refuses to love the truth and so be saved," or as Hebrews says, "because of unbelief." Yes, unbelief leads one to breaking the law, but faith is the one condition or provision God places upon the application of Christ's atoning work. He does not perish for lack of atonement, as the Synod of Dort even concluded.

 

[kyredneck]

Originally Posted by Skandelon
....Now, are they perishing for want of atonement, in that atonement was not available to them, or are they perishing because of their unbelief and unwillingness to abide by the condition set forth?...

They are condemned for their deeds. Period. Faith/belief is never once mentioned in the final judgement. It's for deeds done while in the body.

That is what you say, but Paul clearly states, "They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved," not because they did evil deeds....even those in heaven did evil deeds.

The perishing in 2 Thess 2:10 is NOT in reference to the final judgment, and besides, these folks stand in stark contrast to those in v 13, “that God chose you from the beginning unto salvation in sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth”.

 

[kyredneck]

Originally Posted by Skandelon
That is what you say, but Paul clearly states, "They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved," not because they did evil deeds....even those in heaven did evil deeds.

"even those in heaven did evil deeds"

You care to explain what you mean by this? I don't get it.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

You agree that Christ didn't endured just so much for so many? Doesn't that mean you affirm that what Christ did endure satisfied the justice needed for every individual, even if its only applied to those effectually called to come to faith?

I'll post again on this subject after church, but what Scripture do you suppose that I'd bring to the forum that says that Christ's blood can be wieghed out and valued at so many souls per fluid ounce or whatever? The idea is ridiculous which is why Hodge rejects it so contemptuously.

Steve

 

[Winman]

Mat 13:44 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a treasure hid in a field; the which when a man hath found, he hideth, and for joy thereof goeth and selleth all that he hath, and buyeth that field.

Jesus is the man, the treasure is the elect, and the field is the world (all men). The field does not belong to him, as all men are sold under sin. To obtain the treasure (the elect) hidden in this field (all men), he goes and sells all he has (his blood) and buys the entire field so he can obtain the treasure hidden in the field.

Mat 13:47 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:
48 Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.
49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Jesus here is the net, the sea is the world, and the fish of every kind is men. The net caught fish of every kind, Jesus's blood paid for all men's sins. Those who believe (the just) are kept, those who are evil and do not believe are cast away.