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No man perishes for want of an atonement

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Skandelon, Aug 17, 2011.

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  1. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    Yet, there are those who believe this kind of teaching, as evidenced by the very fact he spends so much time addressing it. I've seen that view of Calvinism represented here, as demonstrated...

    The rest of your post is a basic Calvinistic defense for your view of Particular redemption and we can discuss it in another thread if you wish, but this thread is specifically addressing the distinction Hodge is addressing regarding those who tend to suggest that God's purchase of a big enough boat to rescue more than only those in his family would be a waste of Christ's blood (reference to illustration earlier). Understand?
     
    #121 Skandelon, Aug 21, 2011
  2. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    I wouldn't say "forgiven" because that suggest's that Joe has requested forgiveness, when he hasn't. As Hodge states, "He did all that was necessary, so far as a satisfaction to justice is concerned, all that is required for the salvation of all men." And, "What was demanded for the salvation of one was demanded for the salvation of all. Every man is required to satisfy the demands of the law. No man is required to do either more or less. If those demands are satisfied by a representative or substitute, his work is equally available for all."

    So, even if I was a Calvinist who believed that Joe wasn't elect and thus would NEVER be saved. I could say that Christ's work sufficiently satisfied the demands of the law for him, just as it did for the elect. That work of Christ is "equally available for all." Now, it is ONLY applied through the condition of faith, as Hodge goes on to explain when he says, "The righteousness of Christ being of infinite value or merit, and being in its nature precisely what all men need, may be offered to all men. It is thus offered to the elect and to the non-elect; and it is offered to both classes conditionally. That condition is a cordial acceptance of it as the only ground of justification."

    So, we can differ regarding our soteriology (Cal/Arm) and still be in agreement on this point. Make sense?

    No. His sins are not forgiven, but the work of Christ to satisfy justice was available to him so that they could have been forgiven had he confessed in faith. He didn't because of unbelief, for which he will now perish. So, he perishes for unbelief, not for lack of atonement.

    Yes, his sins are not forgiven because he never repents in faith, so you could say that... But its NOT because Christ's blood or suffering didn't cover or provide for Joe, it did, which is why he stands condemned for unbelief.
     
    #122 Skandelon, Aug 21, 2011
  3. Robert Snow

    Robert Snow New Member

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    Well, it was cheaper than a car to both purchase and maintain. You see, I use it mainly as a means of transportation to work. This allows me money every week that I would not have since the motorcycle gets so much better mileage than my truck does.

    Besides, I have to be very careful who gets any money to "spread the gospel" as you say. I certainly would not want not even one cent to end up in the pocket of a Primitive Baptist. This would be counterproductive and would not spread anything close to the actual gospel of God! I surely would not want to be responsible for this happening! :tongue3:
     
    #123 Robert Snow, Aug 21, 2011
  4. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    No it has not.....not to either mine or anyone who believes in Doctrines of Grace so your own ridiculous negative message achieves nothing in the hearts & minds of any professing Christian DoG believer.

    Is this how you choose to convince Calvinists that they're in error, tad amount to hitting someone in the kneecaps with a baseball bat & then asking why he is crawling to the hospital. Very effective!:thumbs::laugh:
     
    #124 Earth Wind and Fire, Aug 21, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 21, 2011
  5. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    Predestination is about people becoming like Christ not about Japanise Motorcycles. I myself have owned & rebuilt them (Kaws) & I very much like them but my preference for a well made machine is the BMW's ....of course your now in a higher price range. Enjoy your mid life crisis toy!
     
    #125 Earth Wind and Fire, Aug 21, 2011
  6. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    None of the above. I have read through all your posts. I am aware that you have stated that Hodge was a Calvinist, but you seem intent upon effectively denying it. You wrote:-
    Hodge never believed that those who die in unbelief perish for their unbelief alone. That is an Arminian doctrine and an error.

    John Wesley in the Reformation Tradition by Roland Burrows (Tentmaker Publications). I must confess to having given up on it about a third of the way through.
    Super.
     
    #126 Martin Marprelate, Aug 21, 2011
  7. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    So Christ died for Joe in vain.

    Got it.
     
    #127 Aaron, Aug 21, 2011
  8. Don

    Don Well-Known Member
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    If that's truly what you got out of it...then calvinism teaches that Christ died only for those that He chose, for a select few. I admit that you may have already addressed this, and I've missed it in the thousands of previous postings. Please confirm that that's what you believe.
     
    #128 Don, Aug 21, 2011
  9. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    If Christ was punished for Joe's sins, but Joe's sins are still imputed to him, then what good was Christ's punishment?
     
    #129 Aaron, Aug 21, 2011
  10. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    This whole post is a total misrepresentation of Hodge's views, and those of Calvinism generally. I repeat my claim; you are trying to make him out to be some sort of closet Arminian.

    If you are going to quote someone's views, the very least you can do is to try and understand what they are first. Joe, whoever he is, will die in his sins (John 8:24) because Christ did not die for the sins of the non-elect. If Joe had believed, he would have been covered by the blood of Christ, but he didn't and he wasn't. Yours is an Arminian view, and you are trying to palm it off on to Hodge although you have agreed that he was a Calvinist.

    Steve
     
    #130 Martin Marprelate, Aug 21, 2011
  11. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    Now wait for it my friend ;)
     
    #131 Earth Wind and Fire, Aug 21, 2011
  12. Winman

    Winman Active Member

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    I don't think Skan has misrepresented Hodge at all, all he did was quote Hodge. I read this quote, and it clearly (at least to me) seems to say that Hodge believed Jesus's sacrifice atoned for all men, elect and non-elect.

    Perhaps in this quote Hodge was being inconsistent with Calvinism, there is nothing new or special about that. Spurgeon was often inconsistent with Calvinism and readily admitted it.

    The truth is, not all Calvinists agree on every point, just as non-Cals/Arms do not all agree on every point of doctrine.

    That is why we must rely upon the scriptures, and not theology. Arguing about what various theologians believe is fruitless, there are as many varying opinions on theology as there are theologians. All you can do is compare a theologian's particular beliefs with scripture, and see if they line up.
     
    #132 Winman, Aug 21, 2011
  13. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    Im not going back through all the 132 posts to try to reconstruct Skans argument but I concluded that he was trying to show that eminent Calvinist theologians disagree with mainline Orthodox Calvinistic Christian beliefs & formulate different conclusions. Needless to say, both my DoG colleagues & I are not convinced that Hodge presented it as you & Scan suggest. Further I requested a few other examples of others Calvinists who concur with this theory & have yet to see it. So until I do, I for one remain unconvinced.:)
     
    #133 Earth Wind and Fire, Aug 21, 2011
  14. J.D.

    J.D. Active Member
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    What am I missing here? I haven't seen anywhere that Hodge said Christ died for the non-elect.
     
    #134 J.D., Aug 21, 2011
  15. Robert Snow

    Robert Snow New Member

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    Ah yes, BMW and Ducati, not to mention Aprillia make supreme machines, but they are outside my price range.

    BTW, as far as this being my "mid life crisis toy." I have owned motorcycles for most of the past years since 1965.


    Now you also said,"Predestination is about people becoming like Christ."

    Yes, I agree completely. We just see the mechanism differently.

    Ro 8:29
    I see it as saying, those who God foreknew would accept his gift of salvation are the same ones who God has determined to conform them to the image of His Son. God doesn't lose any of those who trust in Him for salvation.
     
    #135 Robert Snow, Aug 21, 2011
  16. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    Some Calvinists (even 5 pointers) argue for the sufficiency of the atonement for all mankind, while some argue that his blood would have been wasted if it covered the sins of all the non-elect too. Hodge was the former and that is what I showed. You have yet to address that distinction and I've explained it as plainly as I know how in the kindest and most respectful way I know how.

    What else can I do except say, enough is enough. I wish you well and God Bless! :)
     
    #136 Skandelon, Aug 21, 2011
  17. J.D.

    J.D. Active Member
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    To say that the Atonement was "sufficient" for the non-elect does not mean that the Atonement was not "efficient" for the elect.

    Can you provide a reference to anywhere that Hodge said that Christ actully died FOR the non-elect?
     
    #137 J.D., Aug 21, 2011
  18. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    I know, I've never seen anything like it. I quote the guy VERBATIM and they just deny what he clearly just said.

    "He did all that was necessary, so far as a satisfaction to justice is concerned, all that is required for the salvation of all men."

    "What was demanded for the salvation of one was demanded for the salvation of all. Every man is required to satisfy the demands of the law. No man is required to do either more or less. If those demands are satisfied by a representative or substitute, his work is equally available for all."

    So, even if I was a Calvinist who believed that Joe wasn't elect and thus would NEVER be saved. I could say that Christ's work sufficiently satisfied the demands of the law for him, just as it did for the elect. That work of Christ is "equally available for all." Now, it is ONLY applied through the condition of faith, as Hodge goes on to explain when he says, "The righteousness of Christ being of infinite value or merit, and being in its nature precisely what all men need, may be offered to all men. It is thus offered to the elect and to the non-elect; and it is offered to both classes conditionally. That condition is a cordial acceptance of it as the only ground of justification."

    Someone go line by line through this and show me how I've misrepresented Hodge, otherwise it's just talk.
     
    #138 Skandelon, Aug 21, 2011
  19. J.D.

    J.D. Active Member
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    Since you've dropped the name of Hodge into this, you should keep bring in the quotes, don't you think?

    So find me something by Hodge that says that Christ died FOR the non-elect, i.e., that He actually PROPITIATED the wrath of God on the cross for the non-elect. [by the way, which Hodge are we talking about?]
     
    #139 J.D., Aug 21, 2011
  20. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    :thumbsup:

    And she shall bring forth a son; and thou shalt call his name JESUS; for it is he that shall save his people from their sins. Mt 1:21
     
    #140 kyredneck, Aug 21, 2011
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